Henderson and Rice make Hall

[NorthSideSox72]

Rumor is, Rickey Henderson and Jim Rice made it.

 

I can't find any official link yet.

 

[Dick Allen]

FOXSPORTS.COM has it.

[Brian]

Cub fans crying can be heard again.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

It's a shame that Raines percentage went down.

[SoxFan562004]

Cub fans crying can be heard again.

he was rejected by the veterans weeks ago

[NorthSideSox72]

he was rejected by the veterans weeks ago

He might be talking about Dawson.

 

Baines stays alive, barely, with 5.9%.

 

Grace falls out - another Cub.

 

Blyleven, Raines and Dawson, IMO, are all obvious picks. They should get in. I can't believe how low Raines' vote numbers are.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Blyleven, Raines and Dawson, IMO, are all obvious picks. They should get in. I can't believe how low Raines' vote numbers are.

I think Rice getting in will give Dawson a major boost.

[maggsmaggs]

I really can't wait till frank is on the ballot, that will be awesome. I will have to try and make to his ceremony. Shame though Bert didn't get in and Rock got so few votes. And who didn't vote for Ricky? He was the best leadoff hitter ever!

[NorthSideSox72]

I really can't wait till frank is on the ballot, that will be awesome. I will have to try and make to his ceremony. Shame though Bert didn't get in and Rock got so few votes. And who didn't vote for Ricky? He was the best leadoff hitter ever!

No one gets 100%, basically. Some folks apparently think that no one in the modern age should be in.

 

[Brian]

He might be talking about Dawson.

 

Baines stays alive, barely, with 5.9%.

 

Grace falls out - another Cub.

 

Blyleven, Raines and Dawson, IMO, are all obvious picks. They should get in. I can't believe how low Raines' vote numbers are.

 

Ding! and agree about Blyleven, Raines, and Dawson.

[SoxFan562004]

No one gets 100%, basically. Some folks apparently think that no one in the modern age should be in.

This better hold true and Jeter better not get 100%, if he's the first one to get 100% it will be a huge joke.

 

I would favor Raines over Dawson, but could see Dawson in as well.

 

Maybe Tommy John doens't have the numbers but I would like to see him recognized at the HOF in someway. Maybe a little exhibit about medical advancements. I know people will argue he was just the right person at the right time, but he was a pioneer and would like to see him acknowledged

Edited January 12, 2009 by SoxFan562004

[NorthSideSox72]

This better hold true and Jeter better not get 100%, if he's the first one to get 100% it will be a huge joke

Way too early to tell if he even gets in.

 

[RockRaines]

He might be talking about Dawson.

 

Baines stays alive, barely, with 5.9%.

 

Grace falls out - another Cub.

 

Blyleven, Raines and Dawson, IMO, are all obvious picks. They should get in. I can't believe how low Raines' vote numbers are.

Dawson? Get the f*** outta here. He was a corner OF'er and wasnt even as good of a hitter as Raines. Tim Raines voting results are pathetic and the HOF voters should be ashamed of themselves. Once again cementing the fact that the HOF is a f***ing joke. I think Rob Neyer says it best:

 

 

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?...;name=Neyer_Rob

 

Shifting the Hall argument

 

Monday, January 12, 2009 | Feedback | Print Entry

 

The thing is done. Now we can stop talking about Jim Rice, until a respectful period has passed and we can simply add him to the list of good players -- Bruce Sutter, Catfish Hunter, and Orlando Cepeda come to mind -- who don't really belong in the Hall of Fame, but are there anyway. As I wrote earlier this morning, the election of Rice will do little to lower the standards of the institution, as it's unlikely that players like Dave Parker, Albert Belle, Dick Allen, and big Frank Howard will now be knocking on the Coop's door (even though, it should be said, all of them were at least Rice's equal).

 

 

Of course, Andre Dawson may soon join that list, as he inched up again this year, to 67 percent. Meanwhile, his old teammate Tim Raines is stuck at 22 percent, which quite frankly might be the single most embarrassing number in the history of Hall of Fame voting.

 

You might have read somewhere that Raines reached base more times in his career than Tony Gwynn, and that's true: 3,977 for Raines; 3,955 for Gwynn. Did you know that Raines reached base 503 times more than Dawson? That Raines is 41st on the all-time list and Dawson is 96th?

 

You might have read somewhere that Dawson finished his career with a .323 on-base percentage -- exceptionally low for a 1980s outfielder/Hall of Fame candidate -- and that's true, too. Did you know that Dawson's .482 career slugging percentage isn't anything special, either? Did you know that Dawson's 119 career OPS+ is lower than Raines' 123? Did you know that on-base percentage should be weighted more heavily than slugging percentage? Did you know that for all the talk about Dawson's impressive combination of power and speed, that Raines stole nearly 500 more bases than Dawson?

 

I don't mean to pick on Dawson, but I find his and Raines' careers oddly linked, and not for the reason you might guess. Yes, they were teammates in Montreal for a number of years. But I wonder if there was a player whose Hall of Fame candidacy was impacted by collusion more than these two. In 1987, both Dawson and Raines were free agents. Neither received an offer commensurate with his talents. Dawson chose to play for the Cubs, for practically nothing, and wound up hitting 47 home runs and winning his only MVP Award (not that he deserved it). Raines chose to wait, and wound up having to sit out the first month of the season before re-signing with the Expos. It would be one of his best seasons -- he still managed to lead the NL with 123 runs -- but it would have been even better if he'd been able to play in April.

 

Without collusion, Andre Dawson probably isn't a future Hall of Famer. Without collusion, Raines might have picked up that MVP Award that Dawson got, in which case his Hall of Fame case would look a lot better than it does.

 

For Raines, all hope should not be lost. In Jim Rice's first of eligibility for the Hall, he received just 30 percent of the vote. And the great thing about Raines' candidacy is that nobody has to make up a bunch of stuff.

 

 

[Kalapse]

Way too early to tell if he even gets in.

Derek Jeter would be a surefire 1st ballot inductee if he retired right now.

[NorthSideSox72]

Derek Jeter would be a surefire 1st ballot inductee if he retired right now.

Maybe. I'm not so sure. Probably.

 

[chunk23]

Henderson should've been unanimous. Rice shouldn't have gotten in. He has no better case than Raines, Dawson, or Baines.

 

Blyleven really should be in and it's a joke he's not.

[Balta1701]

Maybe. I'm not so sure. Probably.

When to take in to account the # of rings he has and the accumulated numbers of things like postseason hits, it's pretty darn likely.

[NorthSideSox72]

Henderson should've been unanimous. Rice shouldn't have gotten in. He has no better case than Raines, Dawson, or Baines.

 

Blyleven really should be in and it's a joke he's not.

Rice played in a different era than Raines, Dawson or Baines - keep that in mind as well. There are also other factors, like postseason, dominance in a given period, and their general effect on the game. Its more than just raw numbers.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

Candidate A: .352 OBP, .491 slugging, .843 OPS. .904 home OPS, .786 away OPS 12 seasons, 298 home runs, 603 walks, 895 strikeouts, no gold gloves. Played all home games at a right handed hitters haven.

 

Candidate B: .352 OBP, .502 slugging, .854 OPS. .920 home OPS, .789 away OPS 16 seasons, 382 home runs, 670 walks, 1423 strikeouts, no gold gloves. Played all home games at a right handed hitters haven.

 

Just for the record, candidate B is Jim Rice and Candidate A is Paul Konerko. So I guess assuming Paulie plays out his contract here in Chicago, puts up two average years by his standards, and then either retires or just plays a year or two extra somewhere else, he should be in the hall of fame too? Well yes, according to the precedent set today, he should. The uprising on the east coast for Jim Rice to be in the hall of fame was a joke, and the fact that he is now in is a joke, it's not the "hall of really good". But hey, I'm sure Paul Konerko and his similar numbers will get this same support someday, right?

Edited January 12, 2009 by whitesoxfan101

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Derek Jeter would be a surefire 1st ballot inductee if he retired right now.

 

 

Only because he is Derek Jeter, plays for the Yankee$, is nauseatingly beloved by the media and is the best player ever (dont forget "Mr November").

 

NOT because he is worthy of being a 1st ballot HoF'er

[southsider2k5]

Candidate A: .352 OBP, .491 slugging, .843 OPS. .904 home OPS, .786 away OPS 12 seasons, 298 home runs, 603 walks, 895 strikeouts, no gold gloves. Played all home games at a right handed hitters haven.

 

Candidate B: .352 OBP, .502 slugging, .854 OPS. .920 home OPS, .789 away OPS 16 seasons, 382 home runs, 670 walks, 1423 strikeouts, no gold gloves. Played all home games at a right handed hitters haven.

 

Just for the record, candidate B is Jim Rice and Candidate A is Paul Konerko. So I guess assuming Paulie plays out his contract here in Chicago, puts up two average years by his standards, and then either retires or just plays a year or two extra somewhere else, he should be in the hall of fame too? Well yes, according to the precedent set today, he should. The uprising on the east coast for Jim Rice to be in the hall of fame was a joke, and the fact that he is now in is a joke, it's not the "hall of really good". But hey, I'm sure Paul Konerko and his similar numbers will get this same support someday, right?

 

Comparing offensive statistics from different eras give no indication of how good a particular player was within his own playing days.

[whitesoxfan101]

Comparing offensive statistics from different eras give no indication of how good a particular player was within his own playing days.

 

Why, because Paul Konerko's numbers during his peak years (1999-2006 or so) aren't as impressive because a bunch of the "better" numbers around him were achieved in large part due to steroid use? I think comparing their numbers (if we assume both of them were clean, which i'm going to) is logicial. It's not like they played 50 to 100 years apart.

Edited January 12, 2009 by whitesoxfan101

[NorthSideSox72]

Why, because Paul Konerko's numbers during his peak years (1999-2006 or so) aren't as impressive because a bunch of the "better" numbers around him were achieved in large part due to steroid use? I think comparing their numbers (if we assume both of them were clean, which i'm going to) is logicial. It's not like they played 50 to 100 years apart.

Rice played the heart of his career in the 70's, Konerko the late 90's early 2000's. They are not remotely comparable eras, and Konerko shouldn't sniff a HOF ballot (unless he suddenly turns it on and has about 5+ career-best-like seasons).

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

Only because he is Derek Jeter, plays for the Yankee$, is nauseatingly beloved by the media and is the best player ever (dont forget "Mr November").

 

NOT because he is worthy of being a 1st ballot HoF'er

 

Jeter is in all likelihood going to retire with around (and i'm being conservative here) over 3000 hits, 1000 walks, 250 home runs, 325 to 350 stolen bases, an OPS around .850 as a top of the order hitter and middle infielder, 1800 runs scored, over 2000 games, 500 doubles, 1200 RBI's, a .315 batting average and .385 on base percentage. All of those numbers don't include his postseason work. He also has (although undeserved) 3 gold gloves, 4 world championship rings, a .309/.377/.469 postseason line in 123 games and 495 at bats, 9 all star apperances, a rookie of the year, an all star game and world series MVP, and 3 silver sluggers. Although his regular season work is overrated, he's one of the better postseason players of all time and will retire with many records of the most succesful organization in sports history. He will be a 1st ballot hall of famer, and I have a hard time arguing it despite my dislike for Jeter.

Edited January 12, 2009 by whitesoxfan101

[whitesoxfan101]

Rice played the heart of his career in the 70's, Konerko the late 90's early 2000's. They are not remotely comparable eras, and Konerko shouldn't sniff a HOF ballot (unless he suddenly turns it on and has about 5+ career-best-like seasons).

 

They are different eras for sure, but somebody with such comparable stats to Konerko shouldn't be in the hall of fame, even taking into account the different era factor. Rice should obviously have received more consideration with the era factor, but he should not be in the hall of fame. No way.