Angels want dye per-cowley

[Dick Allen]

Just like last year's was.

No. More like the offseason between 2006 and 2007. Guys like Erstad, Prinz, Sisco, Aardsma. In a word, crap.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Dick Allen

[sircaffey]

I respectfully disagree and my analysis of J Dye has been backed up by baseball pros. Dye still has very good range and handles RF very well. If he has lost a step his experience makes up for it. He is not a defensive liability in any way. Th hitting aspect speaks for itself for sure.

 

He's ranked 31st, 35th, and 31st in +/- the last 3 years for RFers. Even if you don't believe in stats, being THAT bad tells you something. Dye is no longer an above average defender, and he'll get worse. Experience doesn't make up for diminished skills. See Ken Griffey Jr's play in CF last year.

[ptatc]

A question to think about: did KW intend for this to be what his roster would look like on January 14th, or did he misjudge how the economy/market would play out? I have a very hard time believing that he wanted a roster with so many holes at this stage of the offseason.

 

I disagree with this to an extent. I don't think he believes there are many holes in it.

 

In the lineup he is confident in Fields based upon the performance two years ago before the knee injury.

Second base has youngsters but both Getz and Lillibridge are highly thought of prospects.

The Sox believe Ramierez can play short.

 

C,1B,LF, RF and LF are manned by veterans.

 

This leaves CF as the only hole with the team getting younger.

 

The bullpen has Jenks, Linebrink, Dotel, and the kid from the Yankmees from the right side and Thornton from the left side. there are only 2 lefty spots remaining.

 

The rotation is where he may still add. You have Buerhle, Danks and Floyd as locks with Marquez as a probable. Richard is either in the rotation or in the pen as an additional lefty if KW acquires an additional starting pitcher.

 

I think plan all along as stated was to get younger. This team will have a good mix of veterans and youth if another pitcher is acquired.

 

I think the eceonomy with so many players not signed and the options KW has because of this is the surprise.

 

I'm not saying this team will contend this year but I think this is the plan with Thome and Dye coming off the books soon the team will convert from an old slow team to a more athletic younger team in a 2 year span. This doesn't bode well for this year (although there is no way they will finish last in the Central) but will get them to being a very good team with a young nulceus in a short period of time.

 

[Balta1701]

No. More like the offseason between 2006 and 2007. Guys like Erstad, Prinz, Sisco, Aardsma. In a word, crap.

Why am I the only one who ever remembers all the people who said that Quentin guy wasn't going to amount to anything last offseason? Or that we were screwed for looking at Uribe at 2nd base. Or that Danks and Floyd would never cut it in the rotation. Or that Fields ought to be playing over Crede at 3rd base. Or that our 2006 bullpen could be historically good because of how hard they threw.

 

Hell, you don't even have your years right. Erstad was 2007. Aardsma and Sisco were 2006. Prinz was 2007...but wasn't an offseason addition - he's a guy we grabbed off the scrap heap mid season.

[Dick Allen]

Why am I the only one who ever remembers all the people who said that Quentin guy wasn't going to amount to anything last offseason? Or that we were screwed for looking at Uribe at 2nd base. Or that Danks and Floyd would never cut it in the rotation. Or that Fields ought to be playing over Crede at 3rd base. Or that our 2006 bullpen could be historically good because of how hard they threw.

 

Hell, you don't even have your years right. Erstad was 2007. Aardsma and Sisco were 2006. Prinz was 2007...but wasn't an offseason addition - he's a guy we grabbed off the scrap heap mid season.

You might want to check your baseball encyclopedia before telling people you are the only one who remembers correctly. Aardsma, Erstad, Sisco, Prinz were all brought in for the 2007 season with KW saying a lot of the same things he is now saying about these other players he brought in. What ensued was a disaster.

 

BTW Brett Prinz transaction:February 22, 2007: Signed as a Free Agent with the Chicago White Sox.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2009 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Not really...we were VERY lucky to miss out on Fukudome, Hunter and Rowand (especially). All of those signings would have incapacitated the Sox.

 

The only loss we suffered was not being able to get Cabrera, but Maybin/Miller was too much for us to beat. And we might have a reasonable facsimile of Cabrera in Viciedo when all is said and done.

 

Right now, this offseason hasn't been very helpful for 2009, but it's been very productive for 2010-2012 at least.

[Balta1701]

You might want to check your baseball encyclopedia before telling people you are the only one who remembers correctly. Aardsma, Erstad, Sisco, Prinz were all brought in for the 2007 season with KW saying a lot of the same things he is now saying about these other players he brought in. What ensued was a disaster.

 

BTW Brett Prinz transaction:February 22, 2007: Signed as a Free Agent with the Chicago White Sox.

Ok, you win this round, I apologize on that.

 

But that still doesn't mean that my point is incorrect. An awful lot of people thought we were in better shape going in to 2007 than going in to 2008.

[Dick Allen]

Ok, you win this round, I apologize on that.

 

But that still doesn't mean that my point is incorrect. An awful lot of people thought we were in better shape going in to 2007 than going in to 2008.

Probably because of the results of the previous season. The bottom line is while the White Sox won the division in 2008 they weren't good enough to win what they were ultimately shooting for. Detroit, Cleveland and KC were woeful in 2008. Minnesota surprised and the Sox won but had to go to OT. Will Gavin Floyd be able to repeat? Can Danks repeat? Will the other teams perhaps being a little stronger hurt the Sox? One thing is for sure, I don't think anyone on this board thinks they are good enough to win it all. I still hold out hope KW is bluffing and will bring in some talent. I've stated before, no one will be more shocked than me if he doesn't bring in a real lead off hitter. If its Jerry Owens, I'll want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. But every day that goes by heightens the odds that KW really is going with what he has for the most part. I guess he wants to ensure walk up sales will be the nill the team aparently is anticipating for 2009.

[caulfield12]

You might want to check your baseball encyclopedia before telling people you are the only one who remembers correctly. Aardsma, Erstad, Sisco, Prinz were all brought in for the 2007 season with KW saying a lot of the same things he is now saying about these other players he brought in. What ensued was a disaster.

 

BTW Brett Prinz transaction:February 22, 2007: Signed as a Free Agent with the Chicago White Sox.

 

 

I wouldn't characterize Prinz as someone anyone besides KW had especially high hopes for.

 

Aardsma and Sisco many had high hopes for, especially Sisco. The irony is that one of the few lefties we brought in one of those spring trainings (Javier Lopez) ended up being serviceable, and we never offered Riske arbitration for some mysterious reason.

 

I think the biggest questions right now surround Marquez, Owens and leadoff. If both of those problems were dealt with, most Sox fans would feel at least 5-75% better than now (yes, not a full dollar's or 100% worth of optimism yet).

[Balta1701]

Probably because of the results of the previous season. The bottom line is while the White Sox won the division in 2008 they weren't good enough to win what they were ultimately shooting for. Detroit, Cleveland and KC were woeful in 2008. Minnesota surprised and the Sox won but had to go to OT. Will Gavin Floyd be able to repeat? Can Danks repeat? Will the other teams perhaps being a little stronger hurt the Sox? One thing is for sure, I don't think anyone on this board thinks they are good enough to win it all. I still hold out hope KW is bluffing and will bring in some talent. I've stated before, no one will be more shocked than me if he doesn't bring in a real lead off hitter. If its Jerry Owens, I'll want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. But every day that goes by heightens the odds that KW really is going with what he has for the most part. I guess he wants to ensure walk up sales will be the nill the team aparently is anticipating for 2009.

True. They weren't good enough to win it all...after September 1. You take away the best player from any team in the playoffs, and they're probably lucky to still make that round. On top of that, we lost what, our #3-#4 starting pitcher, and our #1 setup guy never really recovered from his injury?

 

I can't say with any certainty we'd have beaten the Rays or anything like that if we'd had a healthy Q, Linebrink, and Contreras. But I have trouble thinking of another team that made the playoffs that was as banged up as we were. The Red Sox perhaps, they struggled with a Beckett injury and Ortiz having troubles throughout the season.

[Dick Allen]

I wouldn't characterize Prinz as someone anyone besides KW had especially high hopes for.

 

Aardsma and Sisco many had high hopes for, especially Sisco. The irony is that one of the few lefties we brought in one of those spring trainings (Javier Lopez) ended up being serviceable, and we never offered Riske arbitration for some mysterious reason.

 

I think the biggest questions right now surround Marquez, Owens and leadoff. If both of those problems were dealt with, most Sox fans would feel at least 5-75% better than now (yes, not a full dollar's or 100% worth of optimism yet).

KW talked up Aardsma as a future star and when the weather was 30 degrees and the wind howling in during April, he was. Then it warmed up. I have it in my mind KW questioning anybody's baseball acumen if they didn't see him "turn the corner" with the Cubs in 2006.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

True. They weren't good enough to win it all...after September 1. You take away the best player from any team in the playoffs, and they're probably lucky to still make that round. On top of that, we lost what, our #3-#4 starting pitcher, and our #1 setup guy never really recovered from his injury?

 

I can't say with any certainty we'd have beaten the Rays or anything like that if we'd had a healthy Q, Linebrink, and Contreras. But I have trouble thinking of another team that made the playoffs that was as banged up as we were. The Red Sox perhaps, they struggled with a Beckett injury and Ortiz having troubles throughout the season.

I love Quentin, but his health has to always be a question mark. He's been injured a lot during his brief career, and the one thing that always concerns me is he gets hit at such a high clip, he may be out for a while at any time.

 

Can the White Sox be certain Linebrink is over his physical issues? When he came back he was batting practice.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Kalapse]

He's ranked 31st, 35th, and 31st in +/- the last 3 years for RFers. Even if you don't believe in stats, being THAT bad tells you something. Dye is no longer an above average defender, and he'll get worse. Experience doesn't make up for diminished skills. See Ken Griffey Jr's play in CF last year.

And each of the past 3 years John Walsh at the Hardball Times has released his "Best Outfield Arms of the Year" report using stats like Kill+, Hold+ and Runs/200 to judge the best arms of the year. He's yet to post his 2008 report but his 2007 edition was not kind to Jermaine Dye. His main statistic for judging an outfield arm is Runs/200 or the number of runs saved by a fielder's arm over 200 opportunities (which equates to approximately a full season's worth of opps.) Jermaine finished with a Runs/200 of -3.6 for the 2007, so rather than saving runs with his arm he allowed an extra 3.6 to score. Jermaine ranked 20th out of the 27 right fielders who had at least 80 opportunities that season, so he finished in about the bottom 25 percentile at his position. I'd guess that Jermaine finished even worse this season as his arm was even less of a factor last season from what I saw, his assists dropped from 9 in '07 to only 5 last year (26th most amongst ML RF).

 

Sure Jermaine has a "strong arm" but he does a very poor job of utilizing it. Watching him over the past 4 years one thing has become apparent (and I believe Hawk mentioned this a few times last year) Jermaine has horrendous throwing mechanics. For a 13 year veteran with a gold glove in his resume he really has no clue what he's doing out there. I don't think he got behind and ran through a single flyball last year, everything is caught flatfooted so he's building up no momentum for the throw, he's relying entirely on arm strength which is just stupid.

[caulfield12]

Linebrink, Contreras, Crede (while never healthy, he was very productive the first 6 weeks) and Quentin.

 

Take the equivalent of those four from any team in the league...put them on the road in a domed stadium, and they would be in trouble, too. Then you had the 4 man rotation forcing Vazquez into Game 1, that series was doomed from the beginning, seemingly.

Edited January 14, 2009 by caulfield12

[fathom]

Yep, Dye's mechanics in getting behind the ball and/or charging it are some of the worst you'll ever see. The only people that think Dye is good defensively are those that listen to Hawk and DJ too much.

[Balta1701]

I love Quentin, but his health has to always be a question mark. He's been injured a lot during his brief career, and the one thing that always concerns me is he gets hit at such a high clip, he may be out for a while at any time.

 

Can the White Sox be certain Linebrink is over his physical issues? When he came back he was batting practice.

On Liney...I have no idea. On Quentin...I agree.

 

But you're missing my point here. I think it's pretty simple...yes, the team still has 1 or 2 holes, CF and #4 starter being the obvious ones. And there are a number of other positions we're rolling the dice on.

 

If a few positions crap out, then we might be in trouble. But if a couple others step up, this horrific, terrible, awful, we're going to be bad forever offseason will look an awful lot like the "We're going to be bad forever" offseason we had last year. Seemed like everyone was down on this team in January last year, and they stepped up big time and won an admittedly weak division, but did so with major losses to injury.

 

If this is our roster in April...I'll worry about the 2 kids we have as our 4 & 5 starters. But we may well be better than you think. And if we are, then we're in real good shape a year or two down the road.

[greg775]

Dye is a big boy. It takes him a while to get going when motoring in for shallow flies and toward the line. But he's no disaster out there. If we make no moves I'd rather see BA in center than Owens. And CQ in left.

Fields at third, Young at ss (trade them prospects), Lexi at second and Paul at first.

AJ catcher with no decent backup (that could haunt us if durable AJ goes down).

Thome DH.

Trust our bullpen as is to bounce back.

Mark, Floyd, Danks and pray for rain on the hill.

 

p.s. Please sign Garland and Dunn.

[Kalapse]

Linebrink, Contreras, Crede (while never healthy, he was very productive the first 6 weeks) and Quentin.

 

Take the equivalent of those four from any team in the league...put them on the road in a domed stadium, and they would be in trouble, too. Then you had the 4 man rotation forcing Vazquez into Game 1, that series was doomed from the beginning, seemingly.

Using the loss of an injury prone player like Crede as some sort of excuse is just silly, his trip to the disabled list last season should not have been seen as a surprise, rather an inevitability. You can't bank on players like him to stay healthy and besides, I'd argue that the Sox were just as well if not better off with Uribe as their starting 3B last season than they were with a perpetually banged up Crede.

[Balta1701]

Using the loss of an injury prone player like Crede as some sort of excuse is just silly, his trip to the disabled list last season should not have been seen as a surprise, rather an inevitability. You can't bank on players like him to stay healthy and besides, I'd argue that the Sox were just as well if not better off with Uribe as their starting 3B last season than they were with a perpetually banged up Crede.

Then if you're not counting Crede as a surprising injury, Crede's injury replacement spending the whole year banged up (Fields) has to count.

[Kyyle23]

Dye is a big boy. It takes him a while to get going when motoring in for shallow flies and toward the line. But he's no disaster out there. If we make no moves I'd rather see BA in center than Owens. And CQ in left.

Fields at third, Young at ss (trade them prospects), Lexi at second and Paul at first.

AJ catcher with no decent backup (that could haunt us if durable AJ goes down).

Thome DH.

Trust our bullpen as is to bounce back.

Mark, Floyd, Danks and pray for rain on the hill.

 

p.s. Please sign Garland and Dunn.

 

 

Dye, Quentin, BA and Dunn?

[Balta1701]

Dye, Quentin, BA and Dunn?

Dunn would play CF.

[BigSqwert]

Dunn would play CF.

Oh. I thought Garland and Dunn would be the 4th and 5th starters.

[Big Daddy Kool]

Dye, Quentin, BA and Dunn?

 

 

Dunn shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an outfield.

[Big Daddy Kool]

Dunn in CF? You're smoking something right?

[Kalapse]

Then if you're not counting Crede as a surprising injury, Crede's injury replacement spending the whole year banged up (Fields) has to count.

The biggest surprise would have to be the .291/.339/.451/.790 line Crede's replacement put up in his absence and how well Uribe took to the position defensively. Crede himself only hit .248/.314/.460/.774 last year while completely falling apart on defense.