John Paxson

[Balta1701]

Dbaho and Steve, The points I'm making are that his moves did not look horrible at the time. It's easy to bash now. I give you guys the Tyrus-LA trade. But even that did not seem like the end of the world at the time.

A good GM makes moves that look horrible at the time but which in the long term work out. See: Kenny Williams. A bad GM makes moves that seem good at the time but then repeatedly blow up in one's face.

[ZoomSlowik]

Basically everything has gone wrong since the end of the 06-07 season except for winning the lottery. I can't blame him for some of it. Wallace made sense at the time even though it completely backfired (and JR supposedly pushed it anyways), he had a great Gasol deal on the table but it got nixed, Hinrich's play fell off a cliff after they gave him an essentially market value extension, and though he did overpay for Deng it wasn't totally obscene given that Prince and pre-breakout Butler and Howard all got around $10 mil a year. However, buying into the post-NCAA Tyrus hype instead of taking the much more polished Aldridge was brutal, Nocioni got an extension comfortably over what he's worth, he's done nothing to solve the immense logjam in the backcourt, the froncourt is a joke and Gordon may well walk at the end of the year because of how they've mis-handled that. Also, JR played a role in it, but the Del Negro hiring was awful, he has no clue what he's doing and I've seen grade school teams that run more complicated and well thought out offenses. This roster is a mess and I really don't trust Pax to fix it.

[rangercal]

The Hawks are drawing 22,557 a night, the Bulls 20,984.

 

what about on a worldwide scale? Merchandise, ratings etc. Like I said, 10 years.

[Balta1701]

Basically everything has gone wrong since the end of the 06-07 season except for winning the lottery. I can't blame him for some of it. Wallace made sense at the time even though it completely backfired (and JR supposedly pushed it anyways), he had a great Gasol deal on the table but it got nixed, Hinrich's play fell off a cliff after they gave him an essentially market value extension, and though he did overpay for Deng it wasn't totally obscene given that Prince and pre-breakout Butler and Howard all got around $10 mil a year. However, buying into the post-NCAA Tyrus hype instead of taking the much more polished Aldridge was brutal, Nocioni got an extension comfortably over what he's worth, he's done nothing to solve the immense logjam in the backcourt, the froncourt is a joke and Gordon may well walk at the end of the year because of how they've mis-handled that. Also, JR played a role in it, but the Del Negro hiring was awful, he has no clue what he's doing and I've seen grade school teams that run more complicated and well thought out offenses. This roster is a mess and I really don't trust Pax to fix it.

Once you get to a point where a guy is compounding one mistake with another mistake, it's pretty much time to change course. In addition to your list, you can add things like the Chandler trade, not using PJ Browns' expiring contract for anything, drafting Noah over Hawes probably counts as well. VDN is looking like the last straw for me.

 

The simple fact is, the roster is a disaster, the locker room is a mess still, no one seems to have any confidence in the coach, and things aren't looking much better. Pax's last shot to fix this is to make a major move before the deadline. If he can pull off an overhaul I might give him a chance to see how it works.

[DBAHO]

I really don't know about GM's, but I've got a variety of names of people I'm collecting who might be much better coaching options next year.

 

Avery Johnson

Paul Silas

Thom Thibodeau

John Kuester

Lester Conner

Tim Grgurich

 

4 assistants who have put in their dues in 10+ years on the bench, 2 retreads with decent reputations. I'm more than happy to add more to my list if others have suggestions

Johnson would be an interesting mentor for Rose. I still have questions about him as a coach though.

 

Silas has been out of the NBA for a while, that would worry me.

 

My thought on Thibodeau are well known, he deserves to be a head coach somewhere.

 

I think Eddie Jordan would be a very good hire. He kept the Wizards in the playoffs for around 5 seasons which if you look at their record now, was a great achievement.

 

Flip Saunders would be another possible option, as Michael Curry hasn't exactly impressed in Detroit this season.

 

I think Del Harris (current assistant to VDN) would do a better job than what VDN is doing ATM.

 

I think a wildcard would also be Mark Jackson or Jeff Van Gundy if you could get either out their commentating gigs.

[DBAHO]

Dbaho and Steve, The points I'm making are that his moves did not look horrible at the time. It's easy to bash now. I give you guys the Tyrus-LA trade. But even that did not seem like the end of the world at the time.

 

But yeah, show him the door for other reasons:

 

1.) Not having the Balls to stand up to ownership in regards to the luxury tax.

2.) Not having the balls to make a gutsy deadline deal.

3.) Letting the Deng and BG negotiations become a distraction.

 

 

And Steve, read my explanation on Rose. I never gave him credit for winning the lottery. I gave him credit for drafting Rose over Beasley. Which might have been a 50/50 pick outside of Chicago circles. Also, I'm pretty sure the contracts of Ben and Hughes both end at the summer of '10. http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

Well personally I hated the Wallace signing for you guys at the time.

 

I don't think anyone who averages less than 10 points, and had declining stats elsewhere, deserved to be given a max contract for 4 seasons.

 

I think it was a panic signing by the Bulls more than anything, because you were close to getting out of the East the season before, and you thought that 1 move may have put your over the top.

 

Instead it crippled your franchise for 3-4 seasons.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I agree with all of ranger's points. Easy to bash Paxson right now. I'd sure like to bump some 2006/2007 threads to see what people were saying then. There was no way of knowing that the Ben Wallace signing was going to turn out as bad as it did. Were there red flags? Yes. But he was the premier FA at the time and we had the money to spend. Paxson would've been ROASTED Matt Millen style had we not signed him. Two, there was no way of predicting guys like Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng would regress like they have. There was nothing that pointed to it. Even if you think they peaked in 2007, there was nothing to suggest they would get worse. Three, I didn't have a problem with the TT pick AT THE TIME it happened. Sure, it's easy to hate it now. But Tyrus was viewed by many as the player with more upside. I remember everybody talking about how soft LA was.

 

I will concede that I was never crazy about the Noah pick. But honestly, after Oden and Durant, and to a lesser extent Al Horford, that particular draft wasn't exactly loaded. I'd give John at least another year to see what he can do now that he has a potential superstar PG to build around.

[lostfan]

You guys are convincing me to back down from my recent Pax hatred a little. I agree that not all of those moves are his fault. Some of them just backfired horribly.

[RockRaines]

You guys are convincing me to back down from my recent Pax hatred a little. I agree that not all of those moves are his fault. Some of them just backfired horribly.

Dont be convinced, he is a s***ty GM. If you cant fault picks that he had made, who can you fault? Lady Luck? The Noah pick was terrible from the min Pax thought about taking him. I hated him for his skills and still do. Aldridge was considered a perfect fit for the Bulls, what does Pax do? Trades him for a "project" player that wasnt very good in college.

 

His time is UP. Its funny how people can attack Kenny Williams on this site but give a free pass to probably the worst GM in this city.

[lostfan]

Dont be convinced, he is a s***ty GM. If you cant fault picks that he had made, who can you fault? Lady Luck? The Noah pick was terrible from the min Pax thought about taking him. I hated him for his skills and still do. Aldridge was considered a perfect fit for the Bulls, what does Pax do? Trades him for a "project" player that wasnt very good in college.

 

His time is UP. Its funny how people can attack Kenny Williams on this site but give a free pass to probably the worst GM in this city.

lol I said a little. I still want him fired.

[nitetrain8601]

Well the Wallace signing was pushed by JR. That's where things started going downhil. 50% of the blame goes on ownership, 50% goes on the GM. JR pushed BW, Paxson did it. BW shook up the lockerroom. He tuned out Skiles while before coming here, that was blasphemy because you would not play if you did. Wallace was going to play no matter what on that contract. Still, Skiles could spin it as he's a vet and he has earned things in his career. Then Joakim Noah, the most immature Bull who's ever put on the uniform came about. He started disrespecting coaching, and other players saw this and to me it seemed like, "if Noah doesn't have to listen, we surely don't as we are now vets, and he's a rookie." Noah yells at Ron Adams cursing him up and down, and hell ensues.

 

It's no coincidence that since Noah, especially came on, we've had problems with players buying into the coaches for the most part.

 

Paxson's fault comes in acquiring too many assets and not trading them in for star assets. That means consolidating talent. The Bulls were built up of pieces who bought into the system, who worked hard, but weren't always the most talented group. Every player had their flaws, but we really didn't have a guy like Shaq and Kobe, Duncan and Parker, Pippen and Jordan, Isiah and Dumars. I think Paxson fell in love with his core and also thought the Detroit Piston model was the new rule and not the exception in terms of having at least one superstar leading your team.

 

Now, while some of the fault falls on the players for not buying in, Paxson also had to know, not everyone was going to reach their potential. Luol seems to have settled for getting paid. Even at his best, he was never an impact player on this team and he always always faded in the second half of games. His rebounding since his peak season, has gone downhill. The only thing that I can say is better this year than any other year is his defense. He's playing really really nice defense.

 

Gordon has improved the most out of the Baby Bulls as he no longer sucks on defense. He's also become more and more efficient and his overall(despite popular belief, check the numbers) game has improved. Rose, looks good, but he's not really a leader. He's humble to a fault. Doesn't have any killer instinct. Never has dating back to high school. Nocioni has turned to crap, but I think that's because he doesn't know how to play on a crap team. On every team he's ever been on, he's been a role player. Now he thinks he has to do way more on the court to start winning again instead of playing within himself. Tyrus has regressed from his rookie year IMO and LA IMHO was always a better choice(look back at my posts), but a lot of people here even wanted Tyrus. Over the past month though, Tyrus has been a really nice player. Noah cares more about smoking a j instead of on the court stuff. Gooden is terrible defensively and there's a reason he's been traded so many times. Hughes is what we all thought Larry Hughes is. Thabo is not an impact player either. He's a 7th or 8th man, but I think too many people love his size and don't pay attention to his actual ability. Kirk has regressed from his peak season and he's not as bad as I may have stated, but he's also no longer as good as 06/07. The thing is, he's too expensive as a backup and he's not suited to be a full-time SG.

[nitetrain8601]

And also, to his credit besides the 07 draft, he took the BPA's available. No one could really make a case for anyone else taken after his lottery picks as better. In 07, Roy didn't make sense(he still doesn't as him and Gordon's production is very similar and Roy's defense is worse than Gordon's). The only debate was Tyrus or LA. Tyrus won because he was way more athletic which is what Paxson and Skiles wanted along with some fans here.

 

BTW, I still want Paxson fired for his lack of pulling triggers. Hopefully that Hughes, Nocioni for Jermaine deal gets done. Heck throw in Gooden and Noah to sweeten the pot. I could do without all four.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Who f***ing cares? Were those posters getting paid by the Bulls to scout and evaluate these players? If the GM of the team I root for is supposed to be held in the same regard as the average fan, I'm going to root for another team.

 

Paxson is paid to make the right move. You, Me, and Dupree aren't.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. First of all, calm down. Second, my only point in regarding the fans is that it's easy to play Monday morning QB AFTER a trade/draft/signing backfires. If you didn't have a problem with a move at the time it happened, STFU about it and move on. Don't sit here acting like you knew all along it was a bad move. Or want to roast the guy who made the move when you had no problem with it at the time. There isn't a GM in the history of sports that hasn't made multiple bad trades, FA signings or made bad draft picks. If you fired a GM after every bad move/moves they made we'd have a different GM every week. Everybody loved Paxson in 2007. Now a year and a half later he's garbage and should be fired. Give me a f***in' break.

[nitetrain8601]

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. First of all, calm down. Second, my only point in regarding the fans is that it's easy to play Monday morning QB AFTER a trade/draft/signing backfires. If you didn't have a problem with a move at the time it happened, STFU about it and move on. Don't sit here acting like you knew all along it was a bad move. Or want to roast the guy who made the move when you had no problem with it at the time. There isn't a GM in the history of sports that hasn't made multiple bad trades, FA signings or made bad draft picks. If you fired a GM after every bad move/moves they made we'd have a different GM every week. Everybody loved Paxson in 2007. Now a year and a half later he's garbage and should be fired. Give me a f***in' break.

 

Bingo. KW has made way more questionable moves than Paxson has at the time acquisitions were made. Of course, baseball and basketball are two different things, but at the same time, on the day of actual moves, I don't think no one could say that was a terrible trade minus letting JR Smith go for nothing. Other than that, Paxson has always solid acquisitions. Paxson's problem has always been his lack of trades and consildating talent.

[DBAHO]

FWIW a lot of people around the NBA think that Otis Smith isn't a very good GM because he's put the Magic in a cripple salary cap situation.

 

But I see a lot of similarities b/w Smith and Paxson and also a lot of differences.

 

Both have #1 picks on their team.

 

Both signed a player to a max deal, who many people think they overpaid for. The difference is, Rashard Lewis is still contributing very well compared to Wallace.

 

Both gave out a mid - level exception deal to small forwards in Hedo Turkolu and Andres Nocioni. One won the MIP award last season and has flourished as the playmaker, while the other is known as one of the dirtiest players in the game who flops more often than not.

 

But most of all, the difference came down to the coaches they hired.

 

Otis first hired Brian Hill, which was more of a PR move than anything. They made the playoffs in his 2nd season finishing 40-42, but Smith had the balls to see that it wasn't working and fired Hill, to hire Stan Van Gundy. Right now, I would call SVG one of the 3 best coaches in the NBA today.

 

Paxson hired Skiles and that worked well originally, but he wore out his welcome. Now Paxson hired an unknown coach, who many think is over his head.

 

It's those type of decisions that make Paxson argubly one of the worst GM's in the NBA today.

[DBAHO]

Bingo. KW has made way more questionable moves than Paxson has at the time acquisitions were made. Of course, baseball and basketball are two different things, but at the same time, on the day of actual moves, I don't think no one could say that was a terrible trade minus letting JR Smith go for nothing. Other than that, Paxson has always solid acquisitions. Paxson's problem has always been his lack of trades and consildating talent.

Right now I think Paxson's aim should be to clear as much cap-space in 2010 as possible, to try and sign either Chris Bosh or Amare Stoudemire to a max deal.

 

Either of those 2 playing next to Derrick Rose would be an insane combo (Bosh especially with his shooting ability).

[Jordan4life_2007]

Bingo. KW has made way more questionable moves than Paxson has at the time acquisitions were made. Of course, baseball and basketball are two different things, but at the same time, on the day of actual moves, I don't think no one could say that was a terrible trade minus letting JR Smith go for nothing. Other than that, Paxson has always solid acquisitions. Paxson's problem has always been his lack of trades and consildating talent.

 

Yes, I do think Paxson tends to fall in love with players he drafted (and that's a bad quality to have for any GM). But I don't fault Paxson for not trading for KG or Kobe. With Kobe, I don't think he was ever leaving the Lakers. Even if there was a chance, we saw Kobe's teams, along with KG's in Minnesota, when they were surrounded by mediocre talent. It would've been the same situation here. I do think he should've made a move for Gasol in 2007. But didn't they want Deng? Funny how they settled for Kwame f***ing Brown a year later.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Right now I think Paxson's aim should be to clear as much cap-space in 2010 as possible, to try and sign either Chris Bosh or Amare Stoudemire to a max deal.

 

Either of those 2 playing next to Derrick Rose would be an insane combo (Bosh especially with his shooting ability).

 

This guy is why more than anything I'm willing to give Paxson some more time. He's never had a player even close to the capabilities of Rose to build around. The NBA, more than any other sport, is a superstar league. And we finally look to have one after a damn decade. And I get a kick out of those that act as if taking Rose was a no-brainer. Taking Lebron/Shaq/Duncan were no-brainers. You could've made just as good a case for Beasley at the time.

[nitetrain8601]

Right now I think Paxson's aim should be to clear as much cap-space in 2010 as possible, to try and sign either Chris Bosh or Amare Stoudemire to a max deal.

 

Either of those 2 playing next to Derrick Rose would be an insane combo (Bosh especially with his shooting ability).

 

I would go with Amare as he also has a jumper, and he's more explosive IMO.

 

And Paxson does have a few trades on the table in which will allow them to go after a 2010 free agent. The reason he won't trade Hughes right now is because most of the deals want him to take a contract past 2010 which is worthless since Hughes contract doesn't.

 

[nitetrain8601]

Yes, I do think Paxson tends to fall in love with players he drafted (and that's a bad quality to have for any GM). But I don't fault Paxson for not trading for KG or Kobe. With Kobe, I don't think he was ever leaving the Lakers. Even if there was a chance, we saw Kobe's teams, along with KG's in Minnesota, when they were surrounded by mediocre talent. It would've been the same situation here. I do think he should've made a move for Gasol in 2007. But didn't they want Deng? Funny how they settled for Kwame f***ing Brown a year later.

 

Well not getting Pau was not Paxson's fault at all. Grizzlies simply wanted cap space and Heisley first offered Pau to the Bulls because he's from Chicago and wanted to help out the Bulls since they are in a different conference all-together anyway. Ownership said no because they did not want to pay for the luxury tax.

 

For Kobe, Paxson didn't want to get rid of Kirk or Luol. He wanted the trade centered around Ben and Tyrus. Kobe himself didn't want Kirk here because he felt he would be too ball dominant, but he did want Luol here. In the end, Paxson took too much time and winning ended up resolving the Kobe issue.

 

KG is one thing you could fault Paxson for. They wanted Luol, even salaries and some draft picks. I think Kirk and Ben would've been nice around KG. Paxson, however, did not want to give any of his precious core up, so that's why this deal wasn't made.

[SoxFan1]

I don't think Wallace was that bad of a signing at all. He helped us get over the proverbial hump of the 1st round of the playoffs. Was he the sole reason why? No. But I find it hard to believe that his attitude and experience as a winner with the Pistons didn't rub off on the team when they handed Miami their own ass.

[RockRaines]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

 

 

Thats all I see when "trying" to justify anything he has done. His team's time has passed and so has his. He should be gone after this season without a doubt. He is the worst GM in this town which says alot. The Bulls are losing fans, games and opportunities to start building a real time around a future star.

[nitetrain8601]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

 

 

Thats all I see when "trying" to justify anything he has done. His team's time has passed and so has his. He should be gone after this season without a doubt. He is the worst GM in this town which says alot. The Bulls are losing fans, games and opportunities to start building a real time around a future star.

 

When it comes down to it, Rock, you are correct and I wish to see him out of town. I wouldn't want to see the coach fired just yet though.

[SoxFan1]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

 

 

Thats all I see when "trying" to justify anything he has done. His team's time has passed and so has his. He should be gone after this season without a doubt. He is the worst GM in this town which says alot. The Bulls are losing fans, games and opportunities to start building a real time around a future star.

I don't know if that's in response to my comment about Big Ben or not, but for the record, I hate Paxson and he needed to be gone a while ago. He needed to be gone before Skiles, thats for sure.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Rose, looks good, but he's not really a leader. He's humble to a fault. Doesn't have any killer instinct. Never has dating back to high school.

 

 

 

If you fired a GM after every bad move/moves they made we'd have a different GM every week. Everybody loved Paxson in 2007. Now a year and a half later he's garbage and should be fired. Give me a f***in' break.

 

You make it sound as if it's one bad move that has put the Bulls in the position they are in now. It has been a series of draft picks, signings and extensions, trades, and, probably most importantly, non-moves/non-trades all orquestrated by pax that has given us the atrocious product (outside of Rose, in which I feel his hand was forced and their was no real choice as he is a hometown product) that you see on the floor night in and night out. He's the architect, and the team as currently constructed is absolute trash. Based on his prior work, it is abundantly clear that he lacks the vision, foresight, knowledge, and most obviously, ability and fortitude to make the right moves to right the ship. Therefore, he has to go and someone who can actually do the job is needed.

 

 

And by the way, who cares if we as fans kinda liked a signing, draft pick, or trade the day it was made?? Most of us who luv the Bulls are gonna try to put a positive spin on it in our minds and hope for the best anyways. There is not one move he has made I have absolutely luved, outside of maybe the Rose pick, and even then I was worried about how long it would take for him to adjust and if his jumper could improve enough for him to reach star status. But I still feel the Bulls could not afford to not take the hometown kid anyways so the pick was automatic. Rose has very much exceeded my expectations (beasley has very much done the opposite), and I hope he continues to do so.

 

We're not getting paid to do it. He is, and, therefore, he needs to get results. He hasn't. He's proven to suck at his job. He needs to go.