SoxFan1 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 04:23 PM) You are saying you agree with nite who is saying Americans don't have pride and that it's disturbing that the U.S. doesn't have national/ethnic pride then using the WBC as an example. That's far more than saying you agree with the rest of the world, it's attacking people from the U.S. who don't like the WBC No, it's a matter of coincidence that you are trying to put together inaccurately. To EVERY other country in the world, playing for your country far outweighs playing for a domestic league. That's all I'm saying. I utterly disagree with people who think the WBC is stupid. Do they also think the World Cup of Soccer is stupid? What about the FIBA Basketball World Championships? In my opinion, it's because baseball is supposed to be true to America...it's "America's Pastime" and now that other countries have equal or superior talent, they don't want to be shown up in international competition, i.e., losing to Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 03:05 PM) Thats a tricky statement. Is the best baseball played IN America? Yes. But is the best baseball PLAYED by Americans? No. And national/ethnic pride is so important to every country in the world but America. It's a bit disturbing. How is the WBC less important than winning a World Series? Would you rather represent a city you have no ties to or a country that you love? Hmm...tough one. I agree with nite 1000000% on this one. If America liked soccer at all, this silliness wouldn't even be discussed. How am I moving that around? Every other country national and ethnic pride is important except in the U.S. which you are disturbed by, then saying supporting the WBC is a way of showing national pride over city/domestic league pride. So it's not a jump for anyone to say you find it disturbing that people in the U.S. don't support the WBC. Tuesday was one of the proudest moments I've had in my country and that moment meant more to me that the world saw than any olympic gold medal or WBC win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 There is no way any other country could field the quality of depth a team that the United States could. If your talking about a full 25 man roster over the course of a full season. None. There would be a few teams that come close, but that is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 04:32 PM) How am I moving that around? Every other country national and ethnic pride is important except in the U.S. which you are disturbed by, then saying supporting the WBC is a way of showing national pride over city/domestic league pride. So it's not a jump for anyone to say you find it disturbing that people in the U.S. don't support the WBC. Tuesday was one of the proudest moments I've had in my country and that moment meant more to me that the world saw than any olympic gold medal or WBC win No one is questioning your pride in America. Obama is the new President, he's shutting down Guantanamo Bay, awesome. Thats all fine and well, but I'm talking from an athletic standpoint. What you're arguing is the equivalent of me saying that you're not patriotic because YOU yourself don't represent the United States in some type of sporting competition. I really don't care if you're Bill Gates or some bum living under Wacker Drive, your patriotism is your patriotism. That has ZERO to do with athletics. What I AM saying is that there is a double standard. In basketball, people are pissed if Kobe, Lebron, etc. don't participate in the Olympics or in the World Championships. But in baseball, if the Americans compete, the WBC is just stupid. National pride IN ATHLETICS, far outweighs playing in a domestic league. That's all I'm saying. If you think the WBC or World Cup or FIBA is stupid, then don't root for the United States. Either way, John Danks is just as likely (if not more likely) to slip on some ice and break his arm as he is to tear a tendon in his arm while pitching 6 innings in the WBC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 04:35 PM) There is no way any other country could field the quality of depth a team that the United States could. If your talking about a full 25 man roster over the course of a full season. None. There would be a few teams that come close, but that is all. Get off your high horse. Great, you can field a 25 man roster and it's deep and its talented. But talent doesn't win, it's the 9 guys on the field is what matters. This is 2009, not 1909. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 01:39 PM) Get off your high horse. Great, you can field a 25 man roster and it's deep. But the 9 guys on the field is what matters. No, not when your talking about an actual season. The US would destroy other teams. Give me a break, there are a few other countries that could even come close. I'm sorry that US WBC baseball is an after-thought to the actual past-time which is the World Series. That means more to an American baseball fan than the WBC and it also means more to an American player than the WBC. Speaking as someone who grew up admiring baseball and playing it, I dreamed nothing more than to be up with the bases loaded with the chance to win a world series. Thats what its about, not some stupid baseball tournament that happens before players are even in mid-season form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 04:44 PM) No, not when your talking about an actual season. The US would destroy other teams. Give me a break, there are a few other countries that could even come close. I'm sorry that US baseball is an after-thought to the actual past-time which is the World Series. That means more to an American baseball fan than the WBC and it also means more to an American player than the WBC. Speaking as someone who grew up admiring baseball and playing it, I dreamed nothing more than to be up with the bases loaded with the chance to win a world series. Thats what its about, not some stupid baseball tournament that happens before players are even in mid-season form. So because they aren't in mid-season form, or because the "World" Series is the actual pastime, it makes it an excuse for the US to not be competitive in international play? And SEASON's are only played in domestice LEAGUES, tournaments are played in international competition. That means more to an American baseball fan than the WBC and it also means more to an American player than the WBC. You've backed up my argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Why should our priority be an international tournament? It isn't, but if it was, I have no doubt that the US would dominant the tourney in the history just like they've done with basketball (even that short-lived recent run of dissapoints considered, US basketball has been pretty darn dominant). Look at World Cup, US soccer fans care more about world cup than they do some stupid league, why because the history of the World Cup is there and while we aren't as good as many of the countries it doesn't matter, it's a big deal to a US soccer fan because an MLS championship means jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 04:49 PM) Why should our priority be an international tournament? It isn't, but if it was, I have no doubt that the US would dominant the tourney in the history just like they've done with basketball (even that short-lived recent run of dissapoints considered, US basketball has been pretty darn dominant). Look at World Cup, US soccer fans care more about world cup than they do some stupid league, why because the history of the World Cup is there and while we aren't as good as many of the countries it doesn't matter, it's a big deal to a US soccer fan because an MLS championship means jack. So, essentially, because the WBC is new and has no tradition, it makes it ok to keep all domestic leagues in much higher priority than international competition and throw athletic/international pride (when it comes to baseball) out the window? And US basketball has only been dominant since they allowed professionals to play, in which case I agree, since then, the US has been pretty dominant, though it isn't as big of a gap as it seems. What you're proving, however, is the double standard I'm talking about. In basketball, where the competition isn't quite as good, it's cool to have the best players. But in the WBC, where things are a lot closer and the US isn't guaranteed to be awesome, it's stupid if the best players compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Think of it from a personal standpoint instead of from a team/winning standpoint. Would you rather represent, say, the Pittsburgh Pirates or your country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I think the risk factor of the WBC is way, way overblown. A few innings, that they'd pitch with about the same effort level anyway, will not be a significant added risk of injury. I don't like some aspects of the WBC, but I think its a great overall idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 03:27 PM) No, it's a matter of coincidence that you are trying to put together inaccurately. To EVERY other country in the world, playing for your country far outweighs playing for a domestic league. That's all I'm saying. I utterly disagree with people who think the WBC is stupid. Do they also think the World Cup of Soccer is stupid? What about the FIBA Basketball World Championships? In my opinion, it's because baseball is supposed to be true to America...it's "America's Pastime" and now that other countries have equal or superior talent, they don't want to be shown up in international competition, i.e., losing to Mexico. The best players in the world play in the World Series and in the MLB games every day. They do NOT play in the WBC. For Soccer, the best players in the World HOPE to play in the tourney, the best players in the world pretty much are indifferent to playing in the WBC, some even think its detrimental to the actual baseball tournament which is the MLB season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 05:06 PM) The best players in the world play in the World Series and in the MLB games every day. They do NOT play in the WBC. For Soccer, the best players in the World HOPE to play in the tourney, the best players in the world pretty much are indifferent to playing in the WBC, some even think its detrimental to the actual baseball tournament which is the MLB season. The best players in the world do play in the MLB, there is no question about that, but how does winning the World Series have ANYTHING to do with your nationality? Perhaps if I was an American, born and raised in Chicago as a White Sox fan, and played for them and won the World Series, it'd mean a lot. But on top of all that, you'd still be an American, and there is no greater pride in sports than wearing the shirt of your country. One of 2 things will happen. Thw WBC will be scrapped entirely, or it will become the premier international baseball competition, just like FIBA, FIFA, etc. And as far as soccer, if you're one of the best players in the world, you're representing your country. It's simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Any random baseball tournament is just a whole lot different than any other sport because of the aspect of pitching. It's that simple really, you can't get true results unless you pretty much cancel two major league seasons because of the way managers have to manage in this stupid thing. The best players in the world are supposed to be getting ready for the season, not playing competitively, and you got pitchers no where near full strength trying to pitch in this. IMO that's what makes this event dumb, you can't ever get a true result because of the timing and the way you have to manage around this thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 If there is any country that could field a better team than the Americans, it's the Domincan Republic. C - Olivo/Paulino 1B - Pujols 2B - Hanley SS - Reyes 3B - Aramis/Rodriguez/Beltre LF - Manny CF - Soriano RF - Vlad DH - Ortiz The pitching isn't nearly as good, but they do have guys like Liriano, Ervin Santana, Pedro, Cueto, and a few so-so others, and the bullpen would be OK, but the lineup would be sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 03:44 PM) No, not when your talking about an actual season. The US would destroy other teams. Give me a break, there are a few other countries that could even come close. You really think they'd destroy other teams over a full season based on depth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 You all are confusing America with the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 04:38 PM) You all are confusing America with the USA.My mother is from Peru and has always strongly believed that America should never be the term used to describe U.S.A. The Spanish for "American" down there is "Estados Unidiense" which roughly translates to "United States-er" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Soxfan said it best for me. Again, I don't understand how one views local pride over worldwide pride. It would be the equivalent of me saying, "Man, I hope Dwyane Wade would not just play in the NBA because he might be injured and he wouldn't be able to play in my park league." And yes, it is exactly that since you guys are putting local pride over global pride. And yes, it is that f***ing stupid to say such. The best league may be the major leagues, but the MLB does not let us know what country has the best baseball players. For example, the European/Spanish league in soccer are considered the top leagues, but the best players don't come from there. More like Brazil, Argentina, even the USA. It's the same as this. And I'm pretty sure that Venezuela would beat the USA over the course of a season or playoffs. But then again, that's what this tournament is for. To see what country can field the best team. To say it is meaningless is like saying the Olympics is meaningless as it is just an exhibition. Every country around the world respect international competition way more than local championships, minus Americans. That is so weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 QUOTE (VenomSox @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 11:29 AM) Heard on the score that Danks declined the wbc. Good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 23, 2009 -> 12:24 AM) Soxfan said it best for me. Again, I don't understand how one views local pride over worldwide pride. It would be the equivalent of me saying, "Man, I hope Dwyane Wade would not just play in the NBA because he might be injured and he wouldn't be able to play in my park league." And yes, it is exactly that since you guys are putting local pride over global pride. And yes, it is that f***ing stupid to say such. The best league may be the major leagues, but the MLB does not let us know what country has the best baseball players. For example, the European/Spanish league in soccer are considered the top leagues, but the best players don't come from there. More like Brazil, Argentina, even the USA. It's the same as this. And I'm pretty sure that Venezuela would beat the USA over the course of a season or playoffs. But then again, that's what this tournament is for. To see what country can field the best team. To say it is meaningless is like saying the Olympics is meaningless as it is just an exhibition. Every country around the world respect international competition way more than local championships, minus Americans. That is so weird. I'll put country pride when it matters. I'm not actively rooting for the US chess team just because the rep. the US. The WBC is boring. I root for the US in all the olympics and in the world cup because those are cool longlasting traditions that people get behind and they matter. The WBC is just made up because they think there was a demand for it when there wasn't...like womens softball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 01:58 PM) So, essentially, because the WBC is new and has no tradition, it makes it ok to keep all domestic leagues in much higher priority than international competition and throw athletic/international pride (when it comes to baseball) out the window? And US basketball has only been dominant since they allowed professionals to play, in which case I agree, since then, the US has been pretty dominant, though it isn't as big of a gap as it seems. What you're proving, however, is the double standard I'm talking about. In basketball, where the competition isn't quite as good, it's cool to have the best players. But in the WBC, where things are a lot closer and the US isn't guaranteed to be awesome, it's stupid if the best players compete. No, I clearly bleieve that the US has the best in baseball and basketball. In basketball there is clearly a large GAP because it takes fewer players to put together an NBA team (and the US has the 2 best players in the world, if not far more than that...but no one can debate Kobe and Lebron as the best two players in the world and than I'd at least have Chris Paul next). Arod is the best baseball player in the world and whether or not he's US is beyond me. We don't have the best pitcher in the world either (Santana) but the US has the best talent pool in the world by far. Oh and I put far greater pride on NBA titles than US basketball titles. And again a tournament where you aren't practicing for an extended period of time is pretty ridiculous (ie, WBC). The US team doesn't do anything aside from a short WBC sprint where as World Cup you have tons of competitive tourney's as a national team, same for the US basketball team even. That and baseball is a far more historic sport than basketball and there is absolutely nothing more storied or greater than the World Series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 QUOTE (SleepyWhiteSox @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 02:25 PM) You really think they'd destroy other teams over a full season based on depth? Yep, the US and Dominican team would absolutely run away with things. Could you imagine a pen consisting of Putz/Pableboner/Jenks. The US would also have a much better rotation which is why I'd give them the nod. The Domincan team would have a ridiculously good 9 man lineup, one that you could argue is just as good, if not better than the US's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 02:34 PM) Which is the point Jason is trying to make. The US just has too much depth, the team would in fact be head and shoulders over anyone other country over a full season. I really like the WBC. There are few changes I would make, but overall, I like it. People take the event way too seriously, and want to make more of it than it really is. While it's a "World Tournament", it's a bunch of exhibition games broken up by countries. Thats it. It's like when the NHL used to do the All-Star game between North America and the World. What it comes down to is what entertains me. I'm a baseball fan, then a White Sox fan. I love the game, and want to be enjoy watching baseball. The WBC is held in March. During that time, I could either watch Sox vs. Padres, or USA vs. Dominican Republic. As a baseball fan, I want to watch a bunch of all stars play each other instead of watching a two AA teams battle it out for 5 innings. It's an nice alternative for two weeks or whatever. Nothing more, nothing less. I should point out that i actually watched most of the WBC and will watch it again. I enjoy it and think its a fun format, but it ain't even close to the best baseball in the world. Not when the vast majority of the talented players in it aren't even close to being in mid-season form or able to really pitch to there full capabilities (due to them being limited because of there need to be ready for the real round robin...the MLB season). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 22, 2009 -> 07:02 PM) I'll put country pride when it matters. I'm not actively rooting for the US chess team just because the rep. the US. The WBC is boring. I root for the US in all the olympics and in the world cup because those are cool longlasting traditions that people get behind and they matter. The WBC is just made up because they think there was a demand for it when there wasn't...like womens softball. Really? Because it got excellent ratings from around the world. Maybe not in the US it wasn't as strong as the World Series, but I wouldn't expect it to be. And how do you think traditions get started? By putting it together and keep it going. The demand was there, from the players alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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