Obama to make first formal TV interview tonight...

[Balta1701]

Because Isreal doesn't care about anyone or anything except staying right where it is.

So then I ask again...why exactly should we be supporting it if that support gives us zero influence over their behaviour?

[knightni]

As long as Israel is a strong U.S. ally, the Arab world will never take us seriously as a potential friend.

[Balta1701]

As long as Israel is a strong U.S. ally, the Arab world will never take us seriously as a potential friend.

I think the counter-point to that is Egypt.

[knightni]

I added part 2 for those who thought that the first video was the only one.

[NorthSideSox72]

"And the result of that special was that Arabs feel slighted by the world. They feel like they should be more respected for once being the cradle of civilization and are ashamed they are left so far behind."

So your "they" is all Arabs, then. Got it.

 

[bmags]

First, if you think that by hiring BBC journalists that somehow lends them an air of respecability, you are mistaken there, The BBc is more liberal there than PBS and NPR is here.

 

Second, as for the 'cradle of civilization thing, they have become the armpit of civilization to their own lack of willingness to get with the program and live in the 21st century. Their whole belief system and culture needs to get out of the 12th century. Quit living and acting like dogs and maybe they wouldn't be looked at as dogs. If they are so ashamed at being so far behind, then build somethign instead of blowing things up.

 

1st. Is anybody surprised that you think every media outlet in the history of the world that isn't owned by the mooneys or murdoch is a flaming sixties radical rag. The BBC has the most in depth coverage on everything in the world. It isn't liberal, it might be less pro US, so is everything that isn't the US. If you don't read it don't create opinions on it. And reading it isn't reposting 1 of a billion articles that might get forwarded out on emails proving bias.

 

Second, can you always blame the people for their governments or rulers? These are people of the middle east, real people, not the caricatures you like to paint so often.

[kapkomet]

So then I ask again...why exactly should we be supporting it if that support gives us zero influence over their behaviour?

Now I'm confused. I think the argument was if we DIDN'T support them they would just blow everyone up. They don't (therefore we have influence in their decisions) because we are giving them all their money.

 

What did I miss?

[DukeNukeEm]

I think the counter-point to that is Egypt.

Egypt was the first Arab country to sit down with Israel.

[lostfan]

The only thing that really stops Israel from really fighting with their neighbors is relations with the US. If they felt that the US had abandoned them, I have 100% belief that they will pull out all of the stops next time they are attacked. There would be no reason for them to take all of the extra measures to stop civilian casualties.

This scenario is never going to happen. The US will never stop supporting Israel whether we, the Arabs, or whoever else likes it or not unless something extreme happens.

[southsider2k5]

So basically you're saying that Israel is more suicidal than Iran under Ahmadinejad ever could possibly be considered to be? Basically you're saying that if the U.S. pulled back its support, Israel would decide that the appropriate response would be to take the rest of the middle east with it. Why in the world would we want to support people who are blackmailing us with their own suicide?

 

Look at their history and ask me that again. This Israel is as tame as they have ever been, and that is from constant backroom pressure from the US. Remove that and there is no check against their reply to aggressions against them. Look no further than how they fought Lebanon and Gaza this last time, and compare it to the anything goes mode like they had in 1973 or 1967. Its not hard to imagine them fighting harder without an ally versus less.

[lostfan]

Look at their history and ask me that again. This Israel is as tame as they have ever been, and that is from constant backroom pressure from the US. Remove that and there is no check against their reply to aggressions against them. Look no further than how they fought Lebanon and Gaza this last time, and compare it to the anything goes mode like they had in 1973 or 1967. Its not hard to imagine them fighting harder without an ally versus less.

If you're referring to the wars they've been in, the first time was basically self-defense, the second time was pre-emptive in self-defense (technically they were the aggressors but they were about to be attacked). Those were state-on-state conflicts though so it's different. These times, when people complain about Israel, it's that their responses are disproportionate.

[Texsox]

The only thing that really stops Israel from really fighting with their neighbors is relations with the US. If they felt that the US had abandoned them, I have 100% belief that they will pull out all of the stops next time they are attacked. There would be no reason for them to take all of the extra measures to stop civilian casualties.

 

I believe there is a lot of truth in this statement. However, there is also some deeper philosophic issues here. Those nature of man debates that have raged for centuries.

 

For example what prevents us from dropping an atomic bomb on Iraq? What, or more likely, who, is stopping us from an all out crush Iraq plan? What is stopping us from killing even more civilians?

 

There is no clean answer to that, but I believe it is also what keeps Israel in check as well. I do believe there is decency in humanity.

 

And again, reference my first line, currently the US is a strong influence on Israel, and does keep them in somewhat check. I believe Israel would become more aggressive without US influence. Perhaps the degree of that escalation is what could be debated.

[EvilMonkey]

If you're referring to the wars they've been in, the first time was basically self-defense, the second time was pre-emptive in self-defense (technically they were the aggressors but they were about to be attacked). Those were state-on-state conflicts though so it's different. These times, when people complain about Israel, it's that their responses are disproportionate.

So to make thier attacks 'proportionate' would the critics rather that Israel fire hundreds more rockets randomly to match the amount shot at them, or would they rather that Israel become bad shots like Hamas is?

[lostfan]

So to make thier attacks 'proportionate' would the critics rather that Israel fire hundreds more rockets randomly to match the amount shot at them, or would they rather that Israel become bad shots like Hamas is?

Um... what?

 

I'm telling you, nothing gets the Arabs fired up like the sight of a couple hundred dead Palestinians on their TV. Say they don't really care about it all you want to if you insist.

Edited January 28, 2009 by lostfan

[Texsox]

So to make thier attacks 'proportionate' would the critics rather that Israel fire hundreds more rockets randomly to match the amount shot at them, or would they rather that Israel become bad shots like Hamas is?

 

The issue becomes who is being targeted in return as much as how. We expect governments to be more responsible than the terrorist organizations. For example, there are gangs in Chicago that shoot at people and cops. We do not expect random shootings by police in return. We do not expect the FBI to counter terrorist bomb makers by planting their own bombs and detonating them. Perhaps it will be our own destruction, but so far we demand governments to act civilized against an uncivilized criminal.

[Balta1701]

The Colbert ReportMon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c

Al Arabiya Kidnaps Obama

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[EvilMonkey]

The issue becomes who is being targeted in return as much as how. We expect governments to be more responsible than the terrorist organizations. For example, there are gangs in Chicago that shoot at people and cops. We do not expect random shootings by police in return. We do not expect the FBI to counter terrorist bomb makers by planting their own bombs and detonating them. Perhaps it will be our own destruction, but so far we demand governments to act civilized against an uncivilized criminal.

And the Israeli's go to great lengths to target terrorists themselves, but when they proudly employ human shields, fire from schools, hide in hospitals, hitch rides in UN ambulances and store explosives under people's houses with or without their knowledge, should we be suprised that there are 'civilian' casualties? Lost mentioned that part of the recnt issues were what was seen as the disproportionate response by Israel. Hamas fires 100 rockets into Israel, IDF fires 3 back. Hamas kills noone, not for lack of effort and the IDF kills 12. What do you want to be proportionate, the amount of ordinance fired or the casualties? SHould IDF just close their eyes when they shoot, but shoot off an equal amount of missles?

[lostfan]

It'd be pretty convenient if the Israelis didn't kill several thousand Palestinians every couple of years, so we could actually have some serious dialogue with the Muslim world for a change instead of having to worry about the lowest common denominator getting in the way all the time. Another thing to consider, the moderate Muslims won't be taken seriously as long as Israel is front and center 24-7 and with every major Israeli operation that ends with no resolution, it gets more and more difficult for them to be heard.

[mr_genius]

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idU...=22&sp=true

 

apologize

 

they should apologize to the Iranian nation and try to make up for their dark background and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian nation," Ahmadinejad said.

 

Ahmadinejad had harsh words for Obama's predecessor: "Mr Bush has gone into the trash can of history with a very black and shameful file full of treachery and killings."

 

"He left and, God willing, he will go to hell," he added.

 

I think this guy might have a future in the Dem caucus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mr_genius]

Some lady was just on CNN saying that Obama translates to 'he is with us' in the muslim world. well thats a relief! world peace is just around the corner my friends, and all because of Obama.

[southsider2k5]

It'd be pretty convenient if the Israelis didn't kill several thousand Palestinians every couple of years, so we could actually have some serious dialogue with the Muslim world for a change instead of having to worry about the lowest common denominator getting in the way all the time. Another thing to consider, the moderate Muslims won't be taken seriously as long as Israel is front and center 24-7 and with every major Israeli operation that ends with no resolution, it gets more and more difficult for them to be heard.

 

To be fair there is a large peace movement in Israel that get harder and harder to be heard when a large portion of their country lives in a constant state of terror from missiles that can fall from the sky at any second.

[Balta1701]

To be fair there is a large peace movement in Israel that get harder and harder to be heard when a large portion of their country lives in a constant state of terror from missiles that can fall from the sky at any second.

Is there actually data that shows what you claim? It's been my impression that for years, the hard-liners have been gradually losing support while support for a 2-state solution has continued to climb.

[lostfan]

To be fair there is a large peace movement in Israel that get harder and harder to be heard when a large portion of their country lives in a constant state of terror from missiles that can fall from the sky at any second.

I'm not denying that the Israelis have legit concerns over terrorist activity within their borders or that they have the right to defend themselves or use military force when they need to. Of course they do. But it's not so cut and dry, if they could've solved the problem purely with military force, this would've been over years ago. These operations don't really help, they only make things worse.

[southsider2k5]

Is there actually data that shows what you claim? It's been my impression that for years, the hard-liners have been gradually losing support while support for a 2-state solution has continued to climb.

 

You want data to support the fact that there is a peace movement inside Israel? Where the heck would you find data on that?

[southsider2k5]

I'm not denying that the Israelis have legit concerns over terrorist activity within their borders or that they have the right to defend themselves or use military force when they need to. Of course they do. But it's not so cut and dry, if they could've solved the problem purely with military force, this would've been over years ago. These operations don't really help, they only make things worse.

 

And if they could do it with a peace movement, it would have happened by now as well. Everytime things get settled down for some amount of time, a missile or an attack ends that, and Israel responds in spades. We have seen these cycle just keep repeating itself. At what point is Israel allowed to respond?