Obama to make first formal TV interview tonight...

[lostfan]

And if they could do it with a peace movement, it would have happened by now as well. Everytime things get settled down for some amount of time, a missile or an attack ends that, and Israel responds in spades. We have seen these cycle just keep repeating itself. At what point is Israel allowed to respond?

To break it down to its most basic level, Israel's overwhelming (and I use that word loosely, because they don't work outside of the short term) responses aren't helping them any more than Hamas's rocket attacks are helping them. The solution to every problem from Israeli conservatives is "drop a few bombs, kill some more, that'll show em." That works when you're fighting the military of another country, but who's the opposing country, and who's the opposing military here?

[NorthSideSox72]

To break it down to its most basic level, Israel's overwhelming (and I use that word loosely, because they don't work outside of the short term) responses aren't helping them any more than Hamas's rocket attacks are helping them. The solution to every problem from Israeli conservatives is "drop a few bombs, kill some more, that'll show em." That works when you're fighting the military of another country, but who's the opposing country, and who's the opposing military here?

Watching Hamas and the Israeli military, I get a picture in my head of two dudes standing on either side of a brick wall, both banging their heads against it periodically and acting surprised the wall is still there and they have headaches.

 

[lostfan]

Watching Hamas and the Israeli military, I get a picture in my head of two dudes standing on either side of a brick wall, both banging their heads against it periodically and acting surprised the wall is still there and they have headaches.

That's pretty much how I feel too. I think the Palestinians are pretty stupid, but the Israelis take the bait every single time and it never ends.

[bmags]

Perhaps Palestinians are especially stupid because their only education is to count how many pieces their school is in.

[lostfan]

Perhaps Palestinians are especially stupid because their only education is to count how many pieces their school is in.

Originally, we had this same problem with Iraqis back in '04. It was mind-blowing to me.

 

"We need to fight the Americans, because they shoot at us!"

"Uhh, no, we don't shoot at you, we shoot back at you, if you stop doing that, we'll stop reacting."

"Oh. Oh wait look there's another American patrol, open fire"

/facepalm

[bmags]

they are a bit like the aliens in the toy grab in toy story. We just need to dress up like the claw. I think you see where I'm going with this.

[southsider2k5]

To break it down to its most basic level, Israel's overwhelming (and I use that word loosely, because they don't work outside of the short term) responses aren't helping them any more than Hamas's rocket attacks are helping them. The solution to every problem from Israeli conservatives is "drop a few bombs, kill some more, that'll show em." That works when you're fighting the military of another country, but who's the opposing country, and who's the opposing military here?

 

I agree that the responses don't help, but at the sametime, the peace treaties and ceasefires haven't stopped bombs from reigning down on their country either. How is a nation supposed to react when it is literally under perpetual missile attack?

[lostfan]

I agree that the responses don't help, but at the sametime, the peace treaties and ceasefires haven't stopped bombs from reigning down on their country either. How is a nation supposed to react when it is literally under perpetual missile attack?

I think you're blowing this slightly out of proportion, Israel has security problems, but it's not like it has missiles raining down on it every day for months at a time and hundreds of civilians dying.

 

I'm saying, if they really want to not have to do this every 2 years, they need to figure out another solution other than "kill more people." That didn't work for us in Vietnam, didn't work in Iraq, probably won't work for us in Afghanistan if we do that either. So it won't work for them.

Edited January 29, 2009 by lostfan

[southsider2k5]

I think you're blowing this slightly out of proportion, Israel has security problems, but it's not like it has missiles raining down on it every day for months at a time and hundreds of civilians dying.

 

I'm saying, if they really want to not have to do this every 2 years, they need to figure out another solution other than "kill more people." That didn't work for us in Vietnam, didn't work in Iraq, probably won't work for us in Afghanistan if we do that either. So it won't work for them.

 

I never said there was a big death toll. But much like the V2s of WWII, it is the mental toll of living under the constant attacks is almost as bad as anything. There were 1750 attacks in 2008, when there was no conflicts until the very end of the year.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

 

 

Qassams were first fired at Israeli civil areas in October 2001. The first Qassam to hit Israeli territory was launched on February 10, 2002. The first time an Israeli city was hit was on March 5, 2002, when two rockets struck Sderot. Some rockets have hit as far as the edge of Ashkelon. The total number of Qassam rockets launched exceeded 1,000 by June 9, 2006. During the year 2006 alone, more than 1,000 rockets were launched. In 2008, 1750 rockets were launched[2]. By the end of December, 2008 a total of 15 people had been killed by Qassam rockets since attacks began in 2001[3] (see: List of Qassam rocket attacks).

 

The introduction of the Qassam rocket took Israeli politicians and military experts by surprise,[4] and reactions have been mixed.[5] In 2006, the Israeli Ministry of Defense viewed the Qassams as "more a psychological than physical threat."[6] The Israel Defence Force has reacted to the deployment of the Qassam rockets by deploying the Red Color early warning system in Sderot, Ashkelon and other at-risk targets. The system consists of an advanced radar that detects rockets as they are being launched, and loudspeakers warn civilians to take cover between 15 and 45 seconds before impact[7] in an attempt to minimize the threat posed by the rockets. A system called Iron Dome, designed to intercept the rockets before they can hit their targets, is currently under development and is expected to be operational by 2010.

[lostfan]

I never said there was a big death toll. But much like the V2s of WWII, it is the mental toll of living under the constant attacks is almost as bad as anything. There were 1750 attacks in 2008, when there was no conflicts until the very end of the year.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

I don't dispute any of that. But I think it's fair to expect Israel to have a more nuanced approach than just brute force because it's been shown over and over and over again that doing that just doesn't work (unless you want to resort to genocide which obviously wouldn't go over too well). They seem to have no concept of strategy whatsoever to me. Which in turn directly affects our own strategy since the Arab world basically sees them as the 51st state.

[bmags]

Well, then, counterpoint, and why this is a mess. Is could you imagine living like a Palestinian, uneducated, unemployed and caged? Has there been a place in the world where people have been treated like that and haven't rebelled unless controlled by a talented dictator? Israel will not be able to insert a government over palestine as successful as to quell the violence, so this wishy washy defense doesn't really work either. It's just sustainable damage. I mean, if they want to do work, look at what Russia has done to Chechnya, that is some great stuff in the book of oppressive government success! Burning homes of parents who have kids that joined the militia...go putin. But as it stands, Israel's policy towards Palestine and vice versa is not something that is going to eventually solve anything. And really, as long as Palestinians are so unskilled and so uneducated, things will not change.

[lostfan]

Well, then, counterpoint, and why this is a mess. Is could you imagine living like a Palestinian, uneducated, unemployed and caged? Has there been a place in the world where people have been treated like that and haven't rebelled unless controlled by a talented dictator? Israel will not be able to insert a government over palestine as successful as to quell the violence, so this wishy washy defense doesn't really work either. It's just sustainable damage. I mean, if they want to do work, look at what Russia has done to Chechnya, that is some great stuff in the book of oppressive government success! Burning homes of parents who have kids that joined the militia...go putin. But as it stands, Israel's policy towards Palestine and vice versa is not something that is going to eventually solve anything. And really, as long as Palestinians are so unskilled and so uneducated, things will not change.

Bingo.

 

It's not a denial of Israel's right to defend itself or an endorsement of Palestinian tactics, it's just cold reality. What Israel is doing might sound like a logical response but it's just not going to work.