Steff Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:02 PM) There are literally thousands of people in the Chicagoland area that face the same issue. Should the utility companies just give everyone a pass on paying for a service because its cold outside? Its a service you pay for, if you cant pay, you dont get the service. Its fairly straightforward. To my knowledge in Illinois Nicor does NOT turn off service in the winter months. Wait until April then turn the service off. I know it's straightforward because you can pay your bills. It's a pair of shoes you can't understand walking in unless it happens to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:04 PM) Allowing poor people to die is one way of dealing with the problem. I guess that pot allows for imaginative answers to old age and poverty. And what job does a 93 year old man work? And being a vet matters because he has contributed to this country in a way that some poeple will never understand or appreciate. We owe it to those individuals who but their ass on the line for our freedom a little more respect than telling them to smack themselves in the face when they are 93 and struggling to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:03 PM) If they never did that in the future, i guarantee people would take advantage of that They do that now in Illinois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:02 PM) There are literally thousands of people in the Chicagoland area that face the same issue. Should the utility companies just give everyone a pass on paying for a service because its cold outside? Its a service you pay for, if you cant pay, you dont get the service. Its fairly straightforward. Are you suggesting that those thousands should be left to die? I can just hear Rock explain that to the guy as he lays dying. Too bad it's cold outside. I guess you will die. It's a pretty straight forward system. You should have paid your bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:08 PM) Are you suggesting that those thousands should be left to die? I can just hear Rock explain that to the guy as he lays dying. Too bad it's cold outside. I guess you will die. It's a pretty straight forward system. You should have paid your bill. I'm suggesting that those people are at fault for their situation. The power company isnt killing those people, their reluctance to pay for services they are using is what is endangering their lives. In your line of reasoning beyond your side comments that dont have any significance in this disucssion, people who cant pay for services that they use should be given a pass if they are a Vet, old, or poor. Do you understand that a line has to be drawn somewhere? I too have to pay to use my utilities, I too think that they charge too much, I too depend on their services to stay alive and stay warm/eat/bathe/live. It is for that reason that I would do anything in my power to make sure I can make payments on those services. $1000 dollars of past due bills is ALOT of unpaid months, epsecially for someone who is living in a perfectly good piece of equity. I am looking at it from business perspective, totally eliminating all emotions from the rationale. He didnt pay his bill for many months, he was notified many times, he still didnt pay. How long was this going to last? We cant give out free passes just based on someone's inability to pay their bill just because we feel sorry for them. And lets try to keep the personal comments aside here in a perfectly good discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) My house is heated by oil. In the winter every couple weeks an oil truck comes for a delivery and leaves a bill. My driveway is on a hill (only about 1/10 miles but enough that if it is icy you cant make it up without 4 wheel drive. If they cant make it up they leave and attempt to come back later. If I dont pay the oil bill for several months, should they just keep delivering oil to me anyways? Or what if I refuse to plow my driveway? Should i expect them to clear it off for me or deliver the oil some other way? Edited January 28, 2009 by ChiSox_Sonix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (Steff @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:06 PM) To my knowledge in Illinois Nicor does NOT turn off service in the winter months. Wait until April then turn the service off. I know it's straightforward because you can pay your bills. It's a pair of shoes you can't understand walking in unless it happens to you. It's happened to me. I've had my gas an power turned off, and the company neither showed me any leinancy nor compassion. Becuase what it came down to was that I was using a service for free and I owed them money for this service. If I couldnt afford it, I should have built a fire and lived around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:17 PM) It's happened to me. I've had my gas an power turned off, and the company neither showed me any leinancy nor compassion. Becuase what it came down to was that I was using a service for free and I owed them money for this service. If I couldnt afford it, I should have built a fire and lived around that. Nicor and ComEd turned your gas and power off during freezing temperatures? Pretty sure in the city that's illegal. I don't agree with it and if it were up to me I would have left your service on until the weather without those services was no longer life threatening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:16 PM) My house is heated by oil. In the winter every couple weeks an oil truck comes for a delivery and leaves a bill. My driveway is on a hill (only about 1/10 miles but enough that if it is icy you cant make it up without 4 wheel drive. If they cant make it up they leave and attempt to come back later. If I dont pay the oil bill for several months, should they just keep delivering oil to me anyways? Or what if I refuse to plow my driveway? Should i expect them to clear it off for me or deliver the oil some other way? They should have trucks that are able to deliver in whatever conditions they might be confronted with. If the weather is life threatening without heat I think they should continue to deliver you oil to heat your home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (Steff @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:32 PM) Nicor and ComEd turned your gas and power off during freezing temperatures? Pretty sure in the city that's illegal. I don't agree with it and if it were up to me I would have left your service on until the weather without those services was no longer life threatening. I honestly dont remember when it was and I agree its very inhumane, but it comes down to having to pay for a service. Where is the cutoff? How many thousands of dollars credit are you going to give people because they are poor, or because its winter or summer. Summertime heat kills older folks too without AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 01:14 PM) I honestly dont remember when it was and I agree its very inhumane, but it comes down to having to pay for a service. Where is the cutoff? How many thousands of dollars credit are you going to give people because they are poor, or because its winter or summer. Summertime heat kills older folks too without AC. So, basically the argument that I think you're trying to make here is that we should, as a society, be willing to accept "Poverty" as a cause of death. And it doesn't have to be living-on-the-streets poverty, just poverty in whatever circumstance one finds oneself. I'm not sure that's a case I agree with. On the other hand, simply having people refuse to pay their bills is an untenable circumstance. Which is why, in particular with seniors, there needs to be some other alternative. Which is I think what I was getting at before...I just don't know why there was no one to step in to keep an eye on a person like this, especially at his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 03:23 PM) So, basically the argument that I think you're trying to make here is that we should, as a society, be willing to accept "Poverty" as a cause of death. And it doesn't have to be living-on-the-streets poverty, just poverty in whatever circumstance one finds oneself. I'm not sure that's a case I agree with. On the other hand, simply having people refuse to pay their bills is an untenable circumstance. Which is why, in particular with seniors, there needs to be some other alternative. Which is I think what I was getting at before...I just don't know why there was no one to step in to keep an eye on a person like this, especially at his age. There should obviously be some sort of person at the power company that researches cases like this and determines that this particular guy needs help, or assistance from the state for his needs. But yes, poverty is a cuase of death. Homelessness, depression, eviction, etc are all parts of life that could end in death. Lets say this guy couldnt afford food and did not try to get help from anyone else for the cost of food and instead tried to just "tough it out". Would it then be the supermarkets fault for not providing him sustinence? There should have been SOMEONE from the power company who investigated this case before shutting him down, but there was probably so many cases lately of people just not paying for utlities that they lumped him in with every other person in the area who refused to pay their bill. Its not neccesarily a human right to be provided with electricity in your home for an extended period of time without paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 01:48 PM) There should have been SOMEONE from the power company who investigated this case before shutting him down, but there was probably so many cases lately of people just not paying for utlities that they lumped him in with every other person in the area who refused to pay their bill. Its not neccesarily a human right to be provided with electricity in your home for an extended period of time without paying. In that case, if there was a person at the power company who's job it was to do that, or if the power company was legally required to do that, then they could and should face criminal negligence charges. And I agree that having such a requirement is a reasonable level to take this to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 My biggest problem is that the man was a WWII veteran. He served for the United States when the United States was in need, when he was in need where was the US to protect him? He deserved better from his county. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 A couple possible solutions to cutting off the electric. If there is zero usage for 2 hours in freezing temps, call the customer, then call their emergency contact. If no answer, notify the police. This would indicate the breaker was tripped and the person did not reset. In this case it was conceivable that the customer never left his home to learn about the device on his meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:15 PM) Do you understand that a line has to be drawn somewhere? I draw the line before the person dies. You draw the line somewhere past the point where 93 year old people die. I guess we both can sleep with where we draw the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (Steff @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 02:06 PM) To my knowledge in Illinois Nicor does NOT turn off service in the winter months. Wait until April then turn the service off. I know it's straightforward because you can pay your bills. It's a pair of shoes you can't understand walking in unless it happens to you. Sounds simple enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 03:54 PM) In that case, if there was a person at the power company who's job it was to do that, or if the power company was legally required to do that, then they could and should face criminal negligence charges. And I agree that having such a requirement is a reasonable level to take this to. For sure there has to be someone in charge of that. For him to run up a $1000 dollars of unpaid bills he had to go over a year and maybe 2 without paying. Isnt there someone from customer service that investigates this sort of case? What if the man had become senile? He literally wouldnt be able to pay his bill and therefor the gov't should step in and help him out, especially being a Vet. There should have been a better system in place to ensure that a death didnt result from power being shut off. It should have never gotten to this point, but since it did, the company shutting off the power was basically neccesary in their business model. I believe there are caseworkers like this for People's Energy here in Chicago, but im not positive. Bottom line for me is that the guy had an unpaid bill that should have been paid for a long period of time. Since he did not pay, the company had the right to turn it off. Besides that point, I still feel like there has to be a system of safety checks or investigations performed that could have caught this situation before it got this far. There are so many cases where people either lose the ability to function mentally, physically, or of that sort, and the company needs to recognize that the unpaid bills are an indicator of possible other dangers besides poverty. Edited January 28, 2009 by RockRaines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Death penalty cases Killing a child Killing a cop $1000 in unpaid electric bills Perhaps some here could throw the switch that killed that man, but I could not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 If the electric company explained the situation to him and showed/told him how to restart the power if it went out, I have no problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I think I'll just stop paying my association dues. They shut off my water after 3 months of unpaid dues ($390.) If I smell bad or die of dehydration I'll just sue the association because I'm not responsible for paying my bills. There's still some more info I'm missing here. Yeah it was $1,100 in unpaid bills, but how many months late is that? He's 93 years old which means he gets money for social security, but he has no family or friends to check in on him living by himself? How often did the electric company contact this man? What methods did they use? The company installed it on the 13th so how did he not notice the lack of power? His body wasn't discovered until the 17th so I don't know if he died on that day or immediately after the device was installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan101 @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 05:26 PM) If the electric company explained the situation to him and showed/told him how to restart the power if it went out, I have no problem with it. It will be interesting to see if any protocol was violated. If they followed all of the accepted procedures then they cannot be found at fault. It may be wrong on a human level because of the outcome, but from a procedural POV, they may have done all they were required to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share Posted January 29, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 28, 2009 -> 05:53 PM) It will be interesting to see if any protocol was violated. If they followed all of the accepted procedures then they cannot be found at fault. It may be wrong on a human level because of the outcome, but from a procedural POV, they may have done all they were required to do. You may be confusing company protocol with laws. Just because someone has a company policy, if that protocol is found to be illegal, they can still be found at fault. For example, a company may have a protocol where they will not open doors after 5 pm and phones are for company business only. If someone is standing there bleeding from a wound at 5:05 pm and they are ignored, those people could still be prosecuted. And there is no record that they contacted him, no record they explained how the device worked. He was an old man without family who probably outlived his friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 He was an old man without family who probably outlived his friends. So why should society care? /just thinking like Joe the Plumber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmteam Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 I think I'm with Balta on this one -- there has to be some sort of service for people in his situation, which I think is the biggest issue here. And of course, if the electric company didn't tell him about the device, they are negligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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