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A 93-year-old man froze to death inside his home


Texsox

  

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  1. 1. Was the city correct in limiting the electricity?

    • Yes, it's the law
      10
    • No, they killed him
      13
    • Pick me!
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The following month, the same city official says records show Schur tried to pay $876 at a different bank that could accept utility payments. However, the city says its records inexplicably don't reflect that the payment was made.

 

My God, I hope that a posting error wasn't at the heart of this. Tried to pay would seem the opposite of inexplicably not reflected.

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QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Feb 21, 2009 -> 02:20 PM)
If there was an error, are you going to start calling the bank people "murderers?"

 

No. The problem is the limiters and the very poor execution of installing and making certain the people know how they work.

 

The other problem is people who do not mind living in a country where people just freeze to death in their homes. There are many third world countries where that is a reality. I guess we could devolve into that kind of nation, with a disregard for human life.

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QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 22, 2009 -> 10:58 PM)
No. The problem is the limiters and the very poor execution of installing and making certain the people know how they work.

 

The other problem is people who do not mind living in a country where people just freeze to death in their homes. There are many third world countries where that is a reality. I guess we could devolve into that kind of nation, with a disregard for human life.

 

And taken to the extreme the other way, no one would have any power because no one would have to pay their bills, because the power company couldn't turn off power to those who don't pay.

 

How about a happy medium?

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 23, 2009 -> 09:07 AM)
And taken to the extreme the other way, no one would have any power because no one would have to pay their bills, because the power company couldn't turn off power to those who don't pay.

 

How about a happy medium?

 

When someone is freezing to death, I would assume that we all would agree calling a paramedic would be a good idea. I doubt that anyone would ask, hey why are you freezing to death, and then decide what help they should offer. We try and get the person to a warming shelter. What aid would you render to prevent someone from dying?

 

How about stopping the chain of events a couple steps back?

 

The power could still be shut off, after it was determined that there is no threat of loss of life. That doesn't seem like an extreme to me.

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QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 22, 2009 -> 10:58 PM)
No. The problem is the limiters and the very poor execution of installing and making certain the people know how they work.

 

The other problem is people who do not mind living in a country where people just freeze to death in their homes. There are many third world countries where that is a reality. I guess we could devolve into that kind of nation, with a disregard for human life.

On the flip side, there are many "third world" countries that have better healthcare than us, so Im not sure which is a worse disregard for human life.

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QUOTE (RockRaines @ Feb 23, 2009 -> 04:46 PM)
On the flip side, there are many "third world" countries that have better healthcare than us, so Im not sure which is a worse disregard for human life.

 

There is top notch health care in the United States. But it's insanely expensive. It's completely unaffordable to a lot of people.

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QUOTE (mr_genius @ Feb 23, 2009 -> 06:32 PM)
There is top notch health care in the United States. But it's insanely expensive. It's completely unaffordable to a lot of people.

 

It does very well for the extremes, and is tough on the middle.

 

We also do very well with public health. Our overall ability to stop the spread of disease is amazing. We have excellent sanitation. But if you are a middle class person without insurance, you lose twice. Too "rich" for any government assistance; too poor to afford what Doctors charge. Oven with insurance, the co-pays and deductibles are brutal.

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QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 23, 2009 -> 04:58 PM)
It does very well for the extremes, and is tough on the middle.

 

We also do very well with public health. Our overall ability to stop the spread of disease is amazing. We have excellent sanitation. But if you are a middle class person without insurance, you lose twice. Too "rich" for any government assistance; too poor to afford what Doctors charge. Oven with insurance, the co-pays and deductibles are brutal.

Not to mention the disastrous impact the current system has on the Business environment in the U.S. and on the federal budget.

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QUOTE (mr_genius @ Feb 23, 2009 -> 06:32 PM)
There is top notch health care in the United States. But it's insanely expensive. It's completely unaffordable to a lot of people.

Im just saying, which is worse for the US, this one case where someone slipped through the cracks, or an entirely broken health care system that denies treatment to large numbers of people because its not their "right." I find our healthcare system to be much more bold statement on the disregard for human life that Tex mentioned above than than this one case.

Edited by RockRaines
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QUOTE (RockRaines @ Feb 23, 2009 -> 07:37 PM)
Im just saying, which is worse for the US, this one case where someone slipped through the cracks, or an entirely broken health care system that denies treatment to large numbers of people because its not their "right." I find our healthcare system to be much more bold statement on the disregard for human life that Tex mentioned above than than this one case.

 

I don't believe they can really deny anyone treatment. If you walk into an ER, you're going to see a doctor (eventually), regardless of your ability to pay.

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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 23, 2009 -> 08:49 PM)
I don't believe they can really deny anyone treatment. If you walk into an ER, you're going to see a doctor (eventually), regardless of your ability to pay.

 

Actually it becomes more complex than that. They can refuse certain types of non-emergency treatment.

 

I see where Rock is going with his comments. I take a more philosophical approach to reach the same conclusion. We are the wealthiest country on the planet. We are willing to spend billions and billions of dollars to help the citizens of Iraq. We fly flags and yell support our Troops. Then, after they return, work 30-40 years as productive members of society, some say, tough s*** you died, you should have paid your electric bill. That is just hard for me to swallow.

 

I agree with SS, we can't give free electricity, but an in between step of educating the homeowner seems doable. And remember, to be fair, they did not cut off electricity. They limited the use. I do not know if it was enough to warm the house, but I'd be cool if all he could run was the furnace and the stove.

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 09:06 AM)
Health insurance is not a "right"... but that's yet another argument entirely.

 

And neither is electricity, really.

 

I believe electricity depends on the situation. Clearly unplugging someone from a ventilator is far different than unplugging someone's radio. Where this particular situation falls along that line we each have a different idea. With the weather the way it was, and this person's age, I believe it is closer to a life support issue than a convenience issue. I am sympathetic to the argument that we cannot give free electricity to everyone, but there has to be a way to not place the electric company as judge and executioner.

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 09:06 AM)
Health insurance is not a "right"... but that's yet another argument entirely.

 

And neither is electricity, really.

But health CARE should be. Insurance was invented mostly for a profit for a few. Health care is the actual act of giving people help when its needed.

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QUOTE (RockRaines @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 02:02 PM)
But health CARE should be. Insurance was invented mostly for a profit for a few. Health care is the actual act of giving people help when its needed.

Ok, then people shouldn't sue for getting the CARE because they didn't like the look of the doctor that day and people could then maybe afford it.

 

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 02:04 PM)
Ok, then people shouldn't sue for getting the CARE because they didn't like the look of the doctor that day and people could then maybe afford it.

 

There is a whole lotta truth in that. Almost everyone agrees, until it happens to them. Then it is why shouldn't I get mine?

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QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 02:14 PM)
There is a whole lotta truth in that. Almost everyone agrees, until it happens to them. Then it is why shouldn't I get mine?

There is one thing about a true medical mistake and pain and suffering punitive damages. Then there's outrageous bulls***... and that's the problem.

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 02:22 PM)
There is one thing about a true medical mistake and pain and suffering punitive damages. Then there's outrageous bulls***... and that's the problem.

 

yes sir. and there is also the uninsured who are basically getting services for free.

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 02:45 PM)
Yup! And guess what? They still get the service! So what is everyone b****ing about?

The fact that they clog up the ER, which is the only place they can get service? The fact that because they don't get preventative care, they end up costing all of us more money? The fact that some of them could afford it if it wasn't so obscenely expensive?

 

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QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 02:45 PM)
Yup! And guess what? They still get the service! So what is everyone b****ing about?

 

 

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 02:49 PM)
The fact that they clog up the ER, which is the only place they can get service? The fact that because they don't get preventative care, they end up costing all of us more money? The fact that some of them could afford it if it wasn't so obscenely expensive?

 

Thanks. NSS about sums it up. We have a broken, costly, system. Why hasn't the private system solved the problems?? Private industry is perfect! They always find the best, most cost effective solution that makes American grrrrrrrrreat!

 

LOL just trying to give Kap a target :lolhitting I gotta run. Y'all have fun

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QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 24, 2009 -> 02:52 PM)
Thanks. NSS about sums it up. We have a broken, costly, system. Why hasn't the private system solved the problems?? Private industry is perfect! They always find the best, most cost effective solution that makes American grrrrrrrrreat!

 

LOL just trying to give Kap a target :lolhitting I gotta run. Y'all have fun

As I said in the other thread, there is a middle ground.

 

Of course it's broken. No one gets to fix it because of lobby money to prevent it. Funny how that works, huh?

 

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