Viciedo loses weight + leadoff hitter news

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

jesus do we need 20HR hitters at every position? this team has plenty of power already.

You're right. I agree thats why I threw in gap power too. Nothings wrong with not hitting HR's as long as you hit doubles and triples once in a while.

[caulfield12]

Brian Anderson is still around, and so is Dewayne Wise. Anderson has obvious ability and has culled a cult-like following among Sox fans despite getting limited play the past two seasons. In 2006, Anderson played in 134 games and batted a subpar .225. Last year, he started only 39 games but appeared in 109, often as a late-inning defensive replacement.

 

"I think he grew up a little bit as a player last year, and I think he grew up a little bit as a man," Guillen said. "He will get a legit shot to win the job." Guillen said the same about Wise.

 

The battle at second base is even more crowded, with Getz, Lillibridge and Jayson Nix set to compete. General manager Kenny Williams said top prospect Gordon Beckham needs a full season in the minor leagues.

 

Lillibridge is a product of the Atlanta Braves' system, and Nix comes over from the Colorado Rockies. Much like Williams, Guillen is eager to see Lillibridge when camp opens in Glendale, Ariz.

 

"I think this kid is going to bring a lot, because I talked to (Braves scout) Jim Fregosi and he's really high on him," Guillen said. "He's a player; he shows up every day trying to beat you. That's what I hear."

 

from dailyherald.com

Edited February 1, 2009 by caulfield12

[Jimmywins1]

You're right. I agree thats why I threw in gap power too. Nothings wrong with not hitting HR's as long as you hit doubles and triples once in a while.

Jerry Owens doesn't have gap power. He has grounder to bloop power.

[caulfield12]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?i...ce=MLBHeadlines

 

Article that says the White Sox are done with FA's for this offseason.

 

The most interesting thing was hinting that DeWayne Wise was the favorite for CF, but I haven't seen that reported ANYWHERE else. I guess in that scenario, Wise would be batting 9th?

 

If Lillibridge or Getz are legitimately targeted to hit leadoff, you'd have to think that Anderson behind Fields as the 9th place hitter would make the most sense. But it seems more like they would prefer Owens to hit first against righties and Lillibridge against lefties.

[elrockinMT]

Based on just the quotes I would have to agree that I am not sure we "got any better" either. But, what we had last year wasn't bad. A few players performing better in 2009 might make us better withour trades and FA signings.

[greg775]

This actually doesn't sound bad. Wise is a decent player.

[ThunderBolt]

This actually doesn't sound bad. Wise is a decent player.

Ah, yes. These are the signs of a decent player. http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wisede01.shtml. The only thing Wise has going for him was a hot two weeks and a good round in the playoffs. Otherwise, he has shown nonthing at the Major League Level. If the choice is between him, Owens, and Anderson, then the answer is always BA. It concerns me greatly that Ozzie doesn't see this.

[Kyyle23]

Ah, yes. These are the signs of a decent player. http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wisede01.shtml. The only thing Wise has going for him was a hot two weeks and a good round in the playoffs. Otherwise, he has shown nonthing at the Major League Level. If the choice is between him, Owens, and Anderson, then the answer is always BA. It concerns me greatly that Ozzie doesn't see this.

 

He didnt say Wise was good or even great, and he certainly was decent for what he provided when CQ went down. No reason to slam Wise, he did what bench players do

[southsider2k5]

Brian Anderson is still around, and so is Dewayne Wise. Anderson has obvious ability and has culled a cult-like following among Sox fans despite getting limited play the past two seasons. In 2006, Anderson played in 134 games and batted a subpar .225. Last year, he started only 39 games but appeared in 109, often as a late-inning defensive replacement.

 

"I think he grew up a little bit as a player last year, and I think he grew up a little bit as a man," Guillen said. "He will get a legit shot to win the job." Guillen said the same about Wise.

 

The battle at second base is even more crowded, with Getz, Lillibridge and Jayson Nix set to compete. General manager Kenny Williams said top prospect Gordon Beckham needs a full season in the minor leagues.

 

Lillibridge is a product of the Atlanta Braves' system, and Nix comes over from the Colorado Rockies. Much like Williams, Guillen is eager to see Lillibridge when camp opens in Glendale, Ariz.

 

"I think this kid is going to bring a lot, because I talked to (Braves scout) Jim Fregosi and he's really high on him," Guillen said. "He's a player; he shows up every day trying to beat you. That's what I hear."

 

from dailyherald.com

 

This kid is my sleeper for the CF job. He would be a perfect fit if he could approach his pre 2008 numbers.

 

[caulfield12]

This kid is my sleeper for the CF job. He would be a perfect fit if he could approach his pre 2008 numbers.

 

He gives you more of the little things (I hate to say scrappy/grindy) that you won't get from an Anderson...maybe like Iguchi with more ability but less refined at this stage of his career.

 

I don't buy KW's comment about BA hitting .275 with 25 homers. If he played everyday, he'd be hard-pressed to hit .240, going against the best righthanders in the game, day in and day out. Of course, his defenders will argue that consistent playing time would fix all the holes in his swing...that his approach would improve and he wouldn't miss every single slider or curveball low and away. Well...the reverse argument is true too, getting the most favorable match-ups available in most games, he didn't even challenge hitting .250 for the season.

 

Anderson's a very good defensive player, sure, but the holes in his offensive game can be more than overcompensated for by Lillibridge repeating anything close to his minor league norms prior to 2008. Of course, someone will cite BA's norms in the minors and say why would we expect Getz/Nix/Lillibridge to hit as well as they did in the minors at the major league level?

 

[Dick Allen]

He gives you more of the little things (I hate to say scrappy/grindy) that you won't get from an Anderson...maybe like Iguchi with more ability but less refined at this stage of his career.

 

I don't buy KW's comment about BA hitting .275 with 25 homers. If he played everyday, he'd be hard-pressed to hit .240, going against the best righthanders in the game, day in and day out. Of course, his defenders will argue that consistent playing time would fix all the holes in his swing...that his approach would improve and he wouldn't miss every single slider or curveball low and away. Well...the reverse argument is true too, getting the most favorable match-ups available in most games, he didn't even challenge hitting .250 for the season.

 

Anderson's a very good defensive player, sure, but the holes in his offensive game can be more than overcompensated for by Lillibridge repeating anything close to his minor league norms prior to 2008. Of course, someone will cite BA's norms in the minors and say why would we expect Getz/Nix/Lillibridge to hit as well as they did in the minors at the major league level?

What's funny is BA hits .225 playing over his head for a defending champion and now you say he'll never hit .240. Lillibridge hits .220 in AAA hits .200 in for the Braves with a bunch of K's,and you say he'll give you more than BA? Please. Keep in mind BA is only 1 year older than him.

Why do you drink KW's kool aid about Lillibridge but not BA? BA hit .257 the second half of 2006 and was promptly replaced by Erstad. His attitude is improved. With consistent AB he should be pretty good. It probably will be with another team.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

What's funny is BA hits .225 playing over his head for a defending champion and now you say he'll never hit .240. Lillibridge hits .220 in AAA hits .200 in for the Braves with a bunch of K's,and you say he'll give you more than BA? Please. Keep in mind BA is only 1 year older than him.

Why do you drink KW's kool aid about Lillibridge but not BA?

 

I would imagine it has to do with a lack of seeing Lillibridge. Stuff that's new always seems better. That, and by all accounts Lillibridge has a quicker bat at the plate, but that wouldn't necessarily assume better overall numbers.

 

If Anderson puts up .240 and 20-25 homers, he'd be one of the most valuable members of the team.

[caulfield12]

I'd just like to see evidence that Anderson is maturing as a player (I won't get into off-field antics or attitude/cockiness for now).

 

Sometimes, I think BA's evil twin William Katt (Greatest American Hero) would have a better chance of scoring with Shannon Tweed in a Skinemax Friday night movie than BA does with the curveball or offspeed stuff off the plate. Maybe you can blame Greg Walker (whatever), but I would like to see some baseball smarts....at least occasionally. The ability to hit to the opposite side and not get pull happy (Rowand fell into this, too). Being able to bunt and give yourself up. Considering he'd probably be the 9th place hitter, the ability to really bear down (like Uribe) and get RBI's when they are most needed. Hitting the cut-off man and throwing to the right bases.

 

While he's a gifted defender, he makes lots of mistakes mentally in terms of fundamentals, and that just drives me crazy. His baserunning could also be better, although he's getting better in that area, and he's one of our few runners that you can count on with his long strides to get the extra base (1B to home on double, 1st to 3rd on single, 2nd to home on single, etc.)

Edited February 2, 2009 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I'd just like to see evidence that Anderson is maturing as a player (I won't get into off-field antics or attitude/cockiness for now).

 

Sometimes, I think BA's evil twin William Katt (Greatest American Hero) would have a better chance of scoring with Shannon Tweed in a Skinemax Friday night movie than BA does with the curveball or offspeed stuff off the plate. Maybe you can blame Greg Walker (whatever), but I would like to see some baseball smarts....at least occasionally. The ability to hit to the opposite side and not get pull happy (Rowand fell into this, too). Being able to bunt and give yourself up. Considering he'd probably be the 9th place hitter, the ability to really bear down (like Uribe) and get RBI's when they are most needed. Hitting the cut-off man and throwing to the right bases.

 

While he's a gifted defender, he makes lots of mistakes mentally in terms of fundamentals, and that just drives me crazy. His baserunning could also be better, although he's getting better in that area, and he's one of our few runners that you can count on with his long strides to get the extra base (1B to home on double, 1st to 3rd on single, 2nd to home on single, etc.)

How many times have you seen Lillibridge play? You seem to have a positive opinion about him, and if its based on KW's comments, KW apparently thinks the world of BA.

[greg775]

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing BA get a chance to thrill us defensively the whole season as a starter in cf. Even if he hit .230 it wouldn't kill us if the other pieces of our lineup, the veteran boppers, do what they are supposed to do.

I didn't mean to say Wise was a phenom. Given a choice I'd rather give it to BA because at least we know he's going to be a stud on defense.

[Melissa1334]

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing BA get a chance to thrill us defensively the whole season as a starter in cf. Even if he hit .230 it wouldn't kill us if the other pieces of our lineup, the veteran boppers, do what they are supposed to do.

I didn't mean to say Wise was a phenom. Given a choice I'd rather give it to BA because at least we know he's going to be a stud on defense.

with pk, aj, fields, cq, and dye all being avg at best defensively, we might need ba out there

[Balta1701]

with pk, aj, fields, cq, and dye all being avg at best defensively, we might need ba out there

We won the division last year with Griffey, Wise, and Swisher being some of our main starting CF's. Frankly, even Owens will be an upgrade defensively.

[sircaffey]

We'll need the improved defense in CF to make up for the downgrades in other areas.

[iamshack]

As huge of a fan of BA as I am, I just get the feeling that no matter what he does prior to the season beginning he won't get the regular time anyway...but here's to hoping he somehow does...

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

We won the division last year with Griffey, Wise, and Swisher being some of our main starting CF's. Frankly, even Owens will be an upgrade defensively.

 

Defensively, yeah, perhaps. Each of those guys have hit a ball past the dirt of the infield though and the trouble is that Owens is bound by MLB rules to use a bat 4-5 times a game. Griffey is often shat on, all he did was hit doubles and have a badass music intro... Swisher and his Mendoza Line average- he still hit more HR's than Owens will in his career, and Wise, well, I like what he did for us last year. I'll happily eat my words without any salt if he goes on to become Podsednik 2.0. If the dinos in the middle of the lineup don't each have 4 month slumps again, then it can be had, if not, it will be interesting to see what Williams and Guillen (I love em both) will have to say about the decision to not pursue on the market, or to think Owens was a better candidate than Anderson (or hell, even Pierzynski or Jenks) in CF.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Griffey gets better reads than Owens does, possibly Swisher as well. Swisher has a much stronger arm, and Griffey's arm even at his age is still better than Owens' arm. Owens has them in speed only, so I see no reason to believe Owens is a defensive upgrade even from the monster than ran out there last year.

 

Besides, what is a realistic expectation of Owens' batting line? I think .280/.330/.340 is very optimistic. His minor league numbers are .291/.351/.358 which is mostly weighted by his very strong performance in Birmingham 4 years ago. Since 2005, his lines in Charlotte have been .260/.328/.344 in '06; .284/.361/.366 in '07; and .276/.346/.316 in '08. Owens' MLB line is .268/.321/.312. It's not like we're talking about Brent Lillibridge here, or some other multi-tool player who may all of the sudden figure it out and become a very good player. We're talking about a LF with no arm who outside of contact and speed has absolutely nothing at all that is valuable to a baseball team at any level above Single-A.

 

Anderson's MLB numbers, by contrast, are .221/.277/.379, and his minor league numbers are .293/.364/.474.

 

Now the question is if a .250/.300/.400 Anderson (which I think is a reasonable optimistic estimate) better than a .280/.330/.340 Jerry Owens when you factor in defense? Owens has the speed, but think about this:

 

Let's say Jerry gets on 33% of the time. How many of those come in blowouts? How many of those come in situations where Ozzie will not run (because Jerry isn't all that great of a base stealer, he's just fast)? How many situations will Ozzie inexplicably lay down a bunt and give up an out to get Owens to 2B? Because I remember a situation in '07, I believe it was vs. Cleveland with Betancourt pitching and Martinez behind the plate, and Ozzie chose to use Fields to bunt instead of having Owens straight steal, even though Owens should have been successful in that situation. Ozzie will still pull that crap.

 

So how many times will Owens get on base during a running situation, steal it without having Ozzie stupidly bunt, and how many times will that lead to a run? And of those few times where Owens would lead to a run that Anderson wouldn't have, are they more valuable in the long run than all those balls that will fall that Anderson would have caught? Or are those few Owens-created runs more valuable than all those times a runner would score from third or advance to third from second where Anderson's arm may have been a deterrent?

 

There's of course the intangibles argument too, which is an argument I will make for better baseball players. How many times does Owens' speed allow him to put down a successful bunt against a tough pitcher who is dominating? How many time's does Owens' speed down the line lead to an error from the opposition that leads to a run? How many times does Owens' threat to steal on the bases mess with a young pitcher's mind enough to lose enough to throw a bad pitch? How many times does Owen's being on first force a pitcher to throw a fastball that a good fastball hitter connects with? But then after all that you still have to ask the defensive question. How much defense can we afford to lose? And again, don't just focus on balls failing to be caught, but also consider that any decent baserunner will be able to advance from 2B to 3B or from 3B to home from medium depth in CF.

 

As I see it, this whole situation is ridiculous. It's a no-brainer. Anderson is clearly the tallest midget here and he has enough tools in his box to where there's at least a chance of a sudden growth spurt. If Owens starts in CF, not only will he be the worst CF in the entire American League - think about it, every other team in this league would have a better CF than Owens - but I believe he'll also be the worst regular position player in all of the AL given his defensive shortcomings.

 

I can't believe that there are actually Sox fans who are upset about the defensive downgrade from Crede to Fields but are yet lukewarm to the terror that will be Jerry Owens in CF. Also, I'd take a healthy Ken Griffey, Jr. in CF over Owens any day of the week. In fact, I'd take an injured Junior out there over Owens as well. Owens shouldn't be on this team. Now that we have Lillibridge to pinch run, there's no reason to have him on the roster.