caulfield12 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-remingt...l_b_160456.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Kenny Williams makes some head-scratching moves (Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik? Yeah in a vacuum you might scratch your head at this one, but we know without this trade there we'd still have the second-longest World Series drought fail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (3E8 @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 07:43 AM) Yeah in a vacuum you might scratch your head at this one, but we know without this trade there we'd still have the second-longest World Series drought fail Nah I still stand by that was a ridiculously bad trade, at that time the economy was fine and carlos lee was a good player, even if the main goal was to dump his salary there had to be much better packages of players available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaus kinski Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I think its a fair assessment-he constantly fails to acquire targeted players and while he has excellent secondary plans, you cant look past this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Yeah, that was such a bad trade.....Trading a guy who you have no chance of re-signing in the future to not only obtain a speedy leadoff hitter you were in despeate need of, but to also free up money to sign a catcher, 2B, and SP, who were all key components of your team winning the World Series. Kenny definitely has made some head scratching trades, but Caballo for SPod should not be on that list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Rowland Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 To tell you the truth, out of all his trades, only Wells/Fogg for Ritchie made me scratch my head raw. Young for Vazquez is debatable but the decision is very split on that one. In some ways, I like that Williams is not afraid to make a trade like a Lee for Pods. Sometimes he does not let a perceived inequity distract him from executing his overall plan. Maybe he could have gotten another prospect or two there, but he did not waste a lot of time negotiating too much and miss the rest of the market. Second tier after a top five is not bad anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hendry was like 4th tier and I can't say I don't disagree with their reason why. He's a guy who mostly looks decent because of resources, but with those resources, no reason he and guys like Omar Minaya have lost more games than they should have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (Pants Rowland @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 08:46 AM) To tell you the truth, out of all his trades, only Wells/Fogg for Ritchie made me scratch my head raw. Young for Vazquez is debatable but the decision is very split on that one. In some ways, I like that Williams is not afraid to make a trade like a Lee for Pods. Sometimes he does not let a perceived inequity distract him from executing his overall plan. Maybe he could have gotten another prospect or two there, but he did not waste a lot of time negotiating too much and miss the rest of the market. Second tier after a top five is not bad anyway. I don't even think the Young-for-Vazquez trade is debatable anymore. We got 3 solid but frustrating seasons out of a prime Javy and then dealt him away for a very strong package. The only reason there was backlash about Young is because a lot of people thought he was going to be a very special player. I remember a lot of Cameron comparisons and a lot of people saying he'd be even better than that. But for what Young has done so far, if I had him now I'd still deal him to Atlanta for Flowers, Lillibridge, Gilmore, and Rodriguez. The only real worry for me was if Young ended up a 30/30 guy with a solid average and some plate discipline, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. In fact, right now that trade may be a steal. And more than Young, I think the biggest kick we took in that deal was dealing away Luis Vizcaino. Our pen was horrid in '06 and even though Luis has never been a world-beater, he did have a good 2006 season and is a solid UT pitcher, and it would have been a huge improvement to have him take some of those innings away from the likes of Jeff Nelson, Cliff Politte, Neal Cotts, Brandon McCarthy, Sean Tracey, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 08:51 AM) Hendry was like 4th tier and I can't say I don't disagree with their reason why. He's a guy who mostly looks decent because of resources, but with those resources, no reason he and guys like Omar Minaya have lost more games than they should have. Ricky Nolasco, Segio Mitre, Renyel Pinto, Jose Ceda, Dontrelle Willis, Ryan Jorgensen, Jose Cueto and Julian Tavarez for Juan Pierre, Matt Clement, Antonio Alfonseca, and Kevin Gregg. At least Clement helped them. Bad contracts to Fukudome, Soriano, Wood, and Marquis. The only credit he deserves is for stealing Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, and Kenny Lofton in salary dumps and turning Todd Hundley, another bad contract, into Eric Karros and Grudz. With Hendry it's going to be either a brainfart or a wishful thinking Cubs fan on the Score PS3 move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 08:35 AM) Yeah, that was such a bad trade.....Trading a guy who you have no chance of re-signing in the future to not only obtain a speedy leadoff hitter you were in despeate need of, but to also free up money to sign a catcher, 2B, and SP, who were all key components of your team winning the World Series. Kenny definitely has made some head scratching trades, but Caballo for SPod should not be on that list. It worked out great and was a brilliant move overall, but we still got hosed on that deal talent-wise. Pods + Vizcaino never has been nor ever will be worth 2 full seasons of Carlos Lee at a below-market price. We should have gotten a good prospect there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 09:24 AM) It worked out great and was a brilliant move overall, but we still got hosed on that deal talent-wise. Pods + Vizcaino never has been nor ever will be worth 2 full seasons of Carlos Lee at a below-market price. We should have gotten a good prospect there. If the trade ultimately gets the world series trophy, it really doesnt matter that you didnt get the percieved full value. Especially considering the key part that Pods was that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 10:27 AM) If the trade ultimately gets the world series trophy, it really doesnt matter that you didnt get the percieved full value. Especially considering the key part that Pods was that year. Right, I dont have a problem with the end result obviously since it led to a WS. But that doesnt mean I cant critique a trade that we did not get fair value in return. Pods was coming off a poor season after a good rookie campaign too, so he wasnt in high demand exactly either. Although Ill also admit Carlos Lee was my favorite player so I was a little moody for a bit after he was traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 10:24 AM) It worked out great and was a brilliant move overall, but we still got hosed on that deal talent-wise. Pods + Vizcaino never has been nor ever will be worth 2 full seasons of Carlos Lee at a below-market price. We should have gotten a good prospect there. According to FanGraphs, Carlos Lee's worth in dollars for '05 was $6M. The dollar worth of Scott Podsednik + Luis Vizcaino for '05 was $5.4M. So without considering their actual salaries, Podsednik + Vizcaino was almost equal to Lee alone. Yet the Brewers paid $8M for that $6M worth of production, while KW paid $2M for a $5.4M value. Which of course enabled him to sign AJ, Iguchi, Hermanson while insignificantly increasing the budget and adding several more wins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 He's actually ranked 4th overall, looking at the list. I might put him 1 or 2 lower, but, overall, that seems about right for him. His team beats expectations almost every year, he has 2 divisions in 8 seasons, 1 championship, and only one season with less than 80 wins. How many other teams can say all those things? I'm guessing the Yankees are about it. and until 2006, he did that with relatively low payrolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (3E8 @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 10:45 AM) According to FanGraphs, Carlos Lee's worth in dollars for '05 was $6M. The dollar worth of Scott Podsednik + Luis Vizcaino for '05 was $5.4M. So without considering their actual salaries, Podsednik + Vizcaino was almost equal to Lee alone. Yet the Brewers paid $8M for that $6M worth of production, while KW paid $2M for a $5.4M value. Which of course enabled him to sign AJ, Iguchi, Hermanson while insignificantly increasing the budget and adding several more wins EXACTLY. Carlos Lee + some $ = Pods, Vizcaino, AJ, Iguchi & Hermanson = Word Series Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 11:15 AM) EXACTLY. Carlos Lee + some $ = Pods, Vizcaino, AJ, Iguchi & Hermanson = World Series Champions. Just like Swisher = Viciedo, Betemit, Marquez & Nunez. Edited January 31, 2009 by bucket-of-suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Mark Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I think Mark Shapiro is awful. Particularly because of Borowski and then the follow up, Kerry Wood. Awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan101 @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 07:47 AM) Nah I still stand by that was a ridiculously bad trade, at that time the economy was fine and carlos lee was a good player, even if the main goal was to dump his salary there had to be much better packages of players available. Carlos Lee is a bum and a loser. It was a good move just to get him out of the clubhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 02:50 PM) I think Mark Shapiro is awful. Particularly because of Borowski and then the follow up, Kerry Wood. Awful. You do realize Kerry Wood is still a good pitcher, right? They're not paying the guy a tremendous amount, and they've got enough depth to compensate for any injury problems he might had. I actually think the Indians have had a pretty good offseason. As for the list, i'd say both Friedman and Dombrowski are too high. Friedman's had one winning season, yeah it was the World Series, but i'd like to see more consistancy. Dombrowski's just a complete moron. Edited January 31, 2009 by Thunderbolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 02:27 PM) You do realize Kerry Wood is still a good pitcher, right? They're not paying the guy a tremendous amount, and they've got enough depth to compensate for any injury problems he might had. I actually think the Indians have had a pretty good offseason. As for the list, i'd say both Friedman and Dombrowski are too high. Friedman's had one winning season, yeah it was the World Series, but i'd like to see more consistancy. Dombrowski's just a complete moron. Friedman has to be there. It's astonishing to see what he's built the Rays into with the restraints he has. That organization was a joke just 10 years ago, and right now, it might be the best run organization in the majors, top to bottom. No one's done a better job of building their club, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 03:43 PM) Friedman has to be there. It's astonishing to see what he's built the Rays into with the restraints he has. That organization was a joke just 10 years ago, and right now, it might be the best run organization in the majors, top to bottom. No one's done a better job of building their club, imo. I agree that Friedman is talented, but can we really put him in the top tier when he's only had one winning season? If I see continued success next year then, yeah, I’d be more then accepting of Friedman’s place up there, but for now with one season (a great one) I’d put him in the second tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) I think it's unfair to judge a GM by the number of winning seasons he has, especially when you inherit a joke of a franchise. It's not easy to have winning seasons with a $40 million payroll. And before this year, he had payrolls of less than $30,000,000. To still be able to build and improve your club with little to no resources is astounding. To build it up to the point it is right now, is even more impressive. He's done things with $30 mil per year, that the vast majority of GMs in the league haven't done with $100 mil. Edited January 31, 2009 by sircaffey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 12:43 PM) Friedman has to be there. It's astonishing to see what he's built the Rays into with the restraints he has. That organization was a joke just 10 years ago, and right now, it might be the best run organization in the majors, top to bottom. No one's done a better job of building their club, imo. There's another question though...how many advantages has he had in the process? 2006 Draft, #3 pick, Evan Longoria. 2007, #1 pick, David Price. 2008 #1 pick, Tim Beckham. You give almost any team in baseball the selection of draft picks they've had over the last 10 years and eventually, just by blind luck, they're going to hit a few that stick. Not saying he hasn't done a fine job and built up a solid org there, just wanted to point out the advantage he's had that other GM's haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 12:59 PM) I think it's unfair to judge a GM by the number of winning seasons he has, especially when you inherit a joke of a franchise. It's not easy to have winning seasons with a $40 million payroll. And before this year, he had payrolls of less than $30,000,000. To still be able to build and improve your club with little to no resources is astounding. To build it up to the point it is right now, is even more impressive. He's done things with $30 mil per year, that the vast majority of GMs in the league haven't done with $100 mil. Another point...do those salaries count the $8-$10 million in signing bonuses being given out to their top pick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 31, 2009 -> 03:05 PM) Another point...do those salaries count the $8-$10 million in signing bonuses being given out to their top pick? No, the $5-6 million they give out to their top isn't included in that. Peanuts nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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