KW ranked in "second tier" of five (MLB GM's)

[whitesoxfan101]

Dayton Moore and Jon Daniels ahead of Jim Hendry? I hate the Cubs as much as the next guy, but that's pretty ridiculous. Kenny is about right though, assuming he's the very bottom of the second tier.

[nitetrain8601]

There's another question though...how many advantages has he had in the process? 2006 Draft, #3 pick, Evan Longoria. 2007, #1 pick, David Price. 2008 #1 pick, Tim Beckham.

 

You give almost any team in baseball the selection of draft picks they've had over the last 10 years and eventually, just by blind luck, they're going to hit a few that stick.

 

Not saying he hasn't done a fine job and built up a solid org there, just wanted to point out the advantage he's had that other GM's haven't.

 

Pittsburgh or KC?

[Balta1701]

Pittsburgh or KC?

Pittsburgh is a unique story, in that not only do they draft poorly, but when they draft well, they give those guys to the Cubs.

[Texsox]

I think it's unfair to judge a GM by the number of winning seasons he has,

I agree it is unfair. I also agree it's job #1 and the best way to judge the impact he is having. There are a few jobs where it is easy to evaluate how good of a job the person is doing.

[caulfield12]

I think Mark Shapiro is awful.

 

Particularly because of Borowski and then the follow up, Kerry Wood. Awful.

 

 

Getting Kelly Shoppach (20+ homers from catching position) has been one of his best moves, and one of Epstein's worst...on the other hand, you have the likes of Andy Marte, Josh Barfield, Jason Michaels and Joe Borowski as a closer...which most were quite skeptical of.

 

Totally rearranging the infield with DeRosa, the bloated Peralta (is now a 3B/1B/DH) and Cabrera should definitely help offensively. Garko's also a butcher, and they need to find space for Martinez and Hafner as well.

 

A lot will come down to the contributions of LaPorta and the pitcher they got in return for Sabathia...that will be telling.

 

I also think that the pick-up of Reyes could turn out to be as good as the signing of Pavano turns out badly (from a clubhouse perspective).

 

Also think that the trade of F. Gutierrez was a puzzling one and they're really depending on Choo to be an everyday player when he hasn't been for the last couple of years at the big league level.

 

Shapiro seems to always coast because of the Sizemore, Brandon Phillips and Cliff Lee deal. Of course, he definitely missed the potential with Phillips and gave up way too quickly on him, creating a hole that took 2-3 years to fill.

 

 

[MexSoxFan#1]

Carlos Lee is a bum and a loser. It was a good move just to get him out of the clubhouse.

I totally agree,it's no coincidence that that trade was key to the White Sox winning the WS,without that trade we'd have a team of sluggers with no chance of winning a title...Lee was just your typical bad defense slugger,they are a dime a dozen.

Edited February 1, 2009 by MexSoxFan#1

[4 points]

He's actually ranked 4th overall, looking at the list. I might put him 1 or 2 lower, but, overall, that seems about right for him. His team beats expectations almost every year, he has 2 divisions in 8 seasons, 1 championship, and only one season with less than 80 wins. How many other teams can say all those things? I'm guessing the Yankees are about it. and until 2006, he did that with relatively low payrolls.

 

You think we beat expectations in 06 and 07? Quit tokin on the hype pipe, will ya.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

You think we beat expectations in 06 and 07? Quit tokin on the hype pipe, will ya.

You apparently didn't read my post about his 8 seasons, and my use of the word "almost"... and I'm the one smoking something?

 

Besides, '07 was a year the team sucked and most people agreed they would suck. 2006, they failed to meet expecations, no doubt.

 

[sircaffey]

You apparently didn't read my post about his 8 seasons, and my use of the word "almost"... and I'm the one smoking something?

The Sox exceeded expectations in 2001-2004? Seems like only 2 of 8 seasons exceeded expectations.

[scenario]

The Sox exceeded expectations in 2001-2004? Seems like only 2 of 8 seasons exceeded expectations.

 

In 5 of the 8 years since KW took over we finished 1st or 2nd.

 

And in a year we finished 3rd, we had 90 wins and were in the pennant race until late September.

 

We've won 2 division titles and a world series during that time.

 

And we only 'exceeded expectations' in 2 of the 8 seasons?

 

Cheeses. How spoiled are we?

 

Most fan bases would kill for that.

[caulfield12]

I don't think you can argue that 2003, 2005 and 2008 were years that DIDN'T end up better than MOST predicated b4 the season, even though 2003 turned out disappointing in the end. I think our expectations got too jacked up in the middle of the 2003 season...thinking we MIGHT have had the best team in the AL for at least awhile. And then you're not considering 2000, which was a HUGE surprise to everyone (I know, not part of KW's regime exactly), but almost as big of a surprise as 2005 in many ways, maybe moreso.

 

2001 and 2006 stung coming off division championships and the World Series title, but 2001, we were decimated by injures and started 14-29 and struggled all season to get back to .500.

 

2002, 2004...we were probably around what was expected.

 

2007...once again, injuries decimated a team that most thought would be 5-10 games over .500, but had dramatically faded down the stretch in 2006 and also a team replacing some key parts from the championship team already.

 

By this "disappointment" metric, though....every season in NY, Boston or on the Northside without a World Series title is a major disappointment. That's a pretty high barrier/standard for the White Sox to live up to, if you consider where this team was for large parts of the past 50 years.

Edited February 2, 2009 by caulfield12

[ILMOU]

KW is rated about where he should be, and his arrow will point up or down from there, depending on the performance of Viciedo, Poreda, Beckham, Flowers, Marquez, etc. over the next two years.

 

Cashman, however, is WAY too high. He's third or fourth tier at best. How many GM's WOULDN'T have won a WS with his resources over the last eight seasons. Pavano, K. Brown, Unit, Igawa, Hughes and Kennedy not the studs they were supposed to be, and on and on - you can't blame all of their blunders on the Boss, just cause he's old and senile. Cashman consistently brought teams to the postseason that had less quality pitching overall than their competition - inexcusable given his resources.

[sircaffey]

And we only 'exceeded expectations' in 2 of the 8 seasons?

 

Yes. Perhaps 2003 by a little as well.

[Disco72]

KW is rated about where he should be, and his arrow will point up or down from there, depending on the performance of Viciedo, Poreda, Beckham, Flowers, Marquez, etc. over the next two years.

 

Cashman, however, is WAY too high. He's third or fourth tier at best. How many GM's WOULDN'T have won a WS with his resources over the last eight seasons. Pavano, K. Brown, Unit, Igawa, Hughes and Kennedy not the studs they were supposed to be, and on and on - you can't blame all of their blunders on the Boss, just cause he's old and senile. Cashman consistently brought teams to the postseason that had less quality pitching overall than their competition - inexcusable given his resources.

 

I couldn't agree with you more on Cashman. Every year, I discount the Yankees because their starting pitching is average, at best which is amazing how much money they've spent on it over the years. The Cashman philosophy is apparently to throw huge money at average players with injury risks and/or career years. How many of us knew that Pavano would be a bust? How many people see that Burnett is now vastly overpaid for his production? This year (2009) might finally be different for the Yankees, but we'll see.

[elrockinMT]

I am slowly and painfully real;izing the Sox trade away or allow to walk via free agency players that are ready to make money and start over again.

[caulfield12]

I am slowly and painfully real;izing the Sox trade away or allow to walk via free agency players that are ready to make money and start over again.

 

 

Well, you can go along with that idea in the case of Durham, Ordonez and Lee. Before that, Robin Ventura or Alex Fernandez. More recently, you could add Rowand and Crede (not so much, the back and Boras were too problematic, plus we have depth there now).

 

But they kept Frank Thomas long-term...as well as Buehrle. And was anyone HORRIBLY upset when we left Ordonez go...I mean, he made $14.5 million in 2004 and was coming off a couple of major injuries that led many to believe he might never be the same, plus he was having medical procedures in Switzerland, it was crazy to think the White Sox would offer a deal like the Tigers (to their credit, although they might have been bidding against themselves) did in the end. I guess for this generation of Sox fans, the only name that really HURT to lose was Ventura, because he was such a fan favorite and all-around good guy.

 

It's really what all MLB franchises, with a few exceptions (like the Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs/Dodgers/Angels/Mets) have to do these days. Maximize the value of players in years 1-4, and then get the best possible return. I think Jenks, with his many risk factors, will also fall into this camp.

 

You have to also keep in mind they've kept Konerko, Dye and Thome around as the "core" of the line-up.

 

You can take issue with letting Chris Young go (if KW had a choice) instead of Anderson to the D-Backs, but does anyone want to assume Aaron Rowand's contract right now? I don't think so.

Edited February 2, 2009 by caulfield12

[Steve9347]

I go to the Huffington Post for all of my baseball reading.

[ILMOU]

I couldn't agree with you more on Cashman. Every year, I discount the Yankees because their starting pitching is average, at best which is amazing how much money they've spent on it over the years. The Cashman philosophy is apparently to throw huge money at average players with injury risks and/or career years. How many of us knew that Pavano would be a bust? How many people see that Burnett is now vastly overpaid for his production? This year (2009) might finally be different for the Yankees, but we'll see.

 

I can easily see the Burnett deal, the length/$ of their commitment vs. his injury/inconsistency history, going down as Cashman's next huge blunder. Sabbathia and Texeira will be good, but not the best necessarily at their positions, and they'll be nearly impossible to trade while in decline later in their contracts; especially if the recession is lengthy and payrolls continue to contract. This will cause to Yanks to eat much of their remaining salary in trade, making them that much more expensive.

 

When you look at the relative value Epstein's getting in locking up guys like Pedroia and Beckett previously, it's no surprise that smart beats rich.

 

[Balta1701]

I can easily see the Burnett deal, the length/$ of their commitment vs. his injury/inconsistency history, going down as Cashman's next huge blunder. Sabbathia and Texeira will be good, but not the best necessarily at their positions, and they'll be nearly impossible to trade while in decline later in their contracts; especially if the recession is lengthy and payrolls continue to contract. This will cause to Yanks to eat much of their remaining salary in trade, making them that much more expensive.

Did Tex get an opt-out clause? Every other long term Boras deal has seemed to sneak one in that suddenly becomes relevant 4 years down the road.

[ILMOU]

Did Tex get an opt-out clause?

 

Not sure.

 

[witesoxfan]

Yes. Perhaps 2003 by a little as well.

 

I had the Sox pegged for 90+ wins in 03. With the amount of talent that team had, they should have been far better than they actually were.

 

Did Tex get an opt-out clause? Every other long term Boras deal has seemed to sneak one in that suddenly becomes relevant 4 years down the road.

 

No he did not. It was one of the big things that was brought up shortly after his signing.