"Stimulus" Bill Thread

[NorthSideSox72]

Let's talk about this bill in its own thread, since its a hot topic.

 

Here is a first volley. The GOP made a list of what it calls the most wasteful provisions in the bill. Here is the list, with my bolding representing where I agree with them (which is to say, its wasteful, and isn't focused on key aspects to help the economy)...

 

• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient. (***IF IT REALLY IS INEFFICIENT)

 

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

 

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

 

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

 

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

 

• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

 

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

 

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

 

• $125 million for the Washington sewer system. (don't know - does it need it?)

 

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

 

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

 

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

 

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

 

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

 

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

 

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

 

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

 

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

 

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

 

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

 

• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs. (MAYBE, need more info)

 

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

 

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property

 

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

 

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

 

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

 

• $850 million for Amtrak.

 

• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

 

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

 

• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems. (maybe?)

 

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations

 

[lostfan]

Many of these things, there is a place for and a use for, but it doesn't belong in this package.

[bmags]

Yeah for one that 2 billion doesn't EXPLICITLY say futureGEN is the beneficiary, though it is likely. And besides that, I think it is worth it to continue to try out FUTUREGEN, if it can do what they say or think it can do, it is a fantastic investment. We have a lot of coal in the U.S., if this really can do with the CO2 emissions that it says it can, that 2 b is a good use of money. No green tech. is completely ready yet, so we are going to need to take some chances with money, but something will prove worthwhile.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah for one that 2 billion doesn't EXPLICITLY say futureGEN is the beneficiary, though it is likely. And besides that, I think it is worth it to continue to try out FUTUREGEN, if it can do what they say or think it can do, it is a fantastic investment. We have a lot of coal in the U.S., if this really can do with the CO2 emissions that it says it can, that 2 b is a good use of money. No green tech. is completely ready yet, so we are going to need to take some chances with money, but something will prove worthwhile.

 

I'm all for FutureGen, but does it really belong in a stimulus bill?

 

I know I've said it before, but this is just a massive spending bill with a couple of short-term pieces that will stimulate the economy a little.

[BigSqwert]

Am I the only one that thinks stimulus = spending? Is stimulus supposed to be a savings plan?

[bmags]

I'm all for FutureGen, but does it really belong in a stimulus bill?

 

I know I've said it before, but this is just a massive spending bill with a couple of short-term pieces that will stimulate the economy a little.

 

creates jobs

investment in future technology

 

This isn't just paying people to dig a hole and fill it back up.

 

Stimulus bill is a spending bill. Synonymous. It's the gov't upping it's spending when the demand market shrinks. Spending on things like this could actually really help the country.

[StrangeSox]

Am I the only one that thinks stimulus = spending? Is stimulus supposed to be a savings plan?

 

 

creates jobs

investment in future technology

 

This isn't just paying people to dig a hole and fill it back up.

 

Stimulus bill is a spending bill. Synonymous. It's the gov't upping it's spending when the demand market shrinks. Spending on things like this could actually really help the country.

 

It's a matter of timing. Money that's not going to be spent for 2 years isn't exactly a stimulus for the current economic problems.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think people are getting at the two key aspects - one, that a lot of this stuff may not be a stimulus at all (based on timing, or lack of direct effect), and two that its dangerous to lump all this stuff together (even if individually, they may be good things).

 

[Balta1701]

I think people are getting at the two key aspects - one, that a lot of this stuff may not be a stimulus at all (based on timing, or lack of direct effect), and two that its dangerous to lump all this stuff together (even if individually, they may be good things).

Question for all of you who keep saying "This isn't stimulus".

 

What exactly do you think a government stimulus is?

[StrangeSox]

Question for all of you who keep saying "This isn't stimulus".

 

What exactly do you think a government stimulus is?

 

Large spending done in a timely manner, not several years down the road. If time isn't a concern, that would mean that every spending bill is a "stimulus."

Edited February 3, 2009 by StrangeSox

[NorthSideSox72]

Question for all of you who keep saying "This isn't stimulus".

 

What exactly do you think a government stimulus is?

I interperet it as: government spending that specifically stimulates the economy. Of course, one COULD make almost ANY government spending into that, if you stretch it. Where that line is, and WHEN it is, are the key questions.

 

[Balta1701]

Large spending done in a timely manner, not several years down the road. If time isn't a concern, that would mean that every spending bill is a "stimulus."

I would say that the key thing that makes spending in to stimulus spending is that it's happening during an economic downturn, and that the additional spending from the government is acting in opposition to that downturn.

 

If you look at even the IMO vastly optimistic scenarios for this economy pulling out of this recession by 2011, there's still a gigantic hole between now and then. It's well established by a number of sources (The CBO, Moody's, etc.) that per dollar spent, public spending is the most efficient way to turn government spending in to economic growth, because you're actually creating jobs rather than just giving people money that they save (see; last year's tax rebates.) Aside from expansion of unemployment benefits and food stamps though, the disadvantage of public spending projects is that the do take time.

 

If we're looking at a long, drawn out recession, and we follow the pattern of an even longer, drawn out job market recession like we've seen in recent downturns, then by the time the job market starts wanting to expand on its own, virtually 100% of this package will be out of the door.

 

And another point...if the downturn is going to last until 2011 on its own, then it makes little sense to have none of the money's impact hitting in 2010.

[NorthSideSox72]

GOP in Senate manage to block the $25B addition of infrastructure funding. Two GOP'ers actually voted for it, Specter and Bond. But the Dems were missing a Senator (Kennedy), and Gregg ® didn't vote.

 

Thing is, I think that particular $25B was better than some of the other garbage in there. Which I think was part of the point the GOP Senators were making - cut something else first. I agree with them.

 

I am also getting the impression that Obama doesn't have the influence in Congress, with either party, that he was protrayed to have. He apparently hasn't figured out that game yet. I think Biden was supposed to be in this role.

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

GOP in Senate manage to block the $25B addition of infrastructure funding. Two GOP'ers actually voted for it, Specter and Bond. But the Dems were missing a Senator (Kennedy), and Gregg ® didn't vote.

 

Thing is, I think that particular $25B was better than some of the other garbage in there. Which I think was part of the point the GOP Senators were making - cut something else first. I agree with them.

 

I am also getting the impression that Obama doesn't have the influence in Congress, with either party, that he was protrayed to have. He apparently hasn't figured out that game yet. I think Biden was supposed to be in this role.

In 1994, the Republicans sent around a memo saying they had to oppose health care reform at all costs, because regardless of whether or not it was a good plan, if a national health care system was established, it would devastate that party.

[StrangeSox]

In 1994, the Republicans sent around a memo saying they had to oppose health care reform at all costs, because regardless of whether or not it was a good plan, if a national health care system was established, it would devastate that party.

 

Relevance? Point?

[BigSqwert]

Relevance? Point?

Perhaps they want the economy to fail now so that they could stay relevant.

[Balta1701]

Perhaps they want the economy to fail now so that they could stay relevant.

Can anyone dispute that the Republicans would be significantly better off in 2012 if the Economy was still a disaster than if it was well on the road to recovery?

[Balta1701]

If you want evidence that either the Republicans don't know the first thing about economics or they're just fundamentally doing this in bad faith, here's Senator Kit Bond, reported by Congressional Quarterly today, saying that investment in mass transit isn't a stimulus. And the mass transit dollars should be moved to funding highways.

[bond] plans to offer an amendment that would transfer $5.5 billion in the bill for surface transportation competitive grants to the highway and bridge formula. The grants are meant for larger projects of national or regional significance that can be started within three years. Bond said that is not stimulative.

[mr_genius]

Perhaps they want the economy to fail now so that they could stay relevant.

 

Thats like sayign the Democrats were hoping for terrorists attacks in the United States during the Bush term so they can stay relevant.

[Balta1701]

Hmmm, interesting. Here's some data from an OECD paper a few years ago arguing that not only is the multiplication factor of government spending on GDP significantly larger than what you get from tax cuts, because tax cuts don't have any effect until people decide to spend rather than save the money, tax cuts are actually a less rapid stimulus than government spending. Not sure it's right, but that's data I haven't heard before. Interesting to note that its out there.

 

 

Link

[NorthSideSox72]

If you want evidence that either the Republicans don't know the first thing about economics or they're just fundamentally doing this in bad faith, here's Senator Kit Bond, reported by Congressional Quarterly today, saying that investment in mass transit isn't a stimulus. And the mass transit dollars should be moved to funding highways.

So, he is saying that highway projects are stimulative, but mass transit isn't. Which of course is laughable.

 

But what he really is doing is serving his constituency. Mass transit isn't a big thing in most of Missouri. He'd rather have highway money.

 

[kapkomet]

This (thread) is showing why this whole thing is stupid. Seriously.

 

Not what people are saying, but what people are quoting and the arguements it all involves.

 

Edited February 4, 2009 by kapkomet

[Rex Kickass]

So, he is saying that highway projects are stimulative, but mass transit isn't. Which of course is laughable.

 

But what he really is doing is serving his constituency. Mass transit isn't a big thing in most of Missouri. He'd rather have highway money.

 

Only where the people are, like KC, St Louis.

[StrangeSox]

Thats like sayign the Democrats were hoping for terrorists attacks in the United States during the Bush term so they can stay relevant.

 

This.

 

It's funny watching all of the arguments turn 180* from where they were. I'd say that most discussions aren't arguments or debates, but apologetics for one political party or ideology.

[bmags]

yes, terrorist attacks would've helped democrats, eh? You all remember this past decade so well.