JOE.CREDE. = Twinkie

[caulfield12]

They're the people who are running baseball teams, the people who make millions just to hold the title of adviser or consultant. They're people like Dayton Moore, Theo Epstein or Jack Zduriencik, the sort of baseball minds that teams are hiring to construct their organizations these days. Despite not playing or managing at the major league level they're winning championships or like the Rays coming damn close and threatening to stick around for a while. It's the reason why teams are hiring 35 year old Harvard grads to run their organizations and moving away from the crusty old baseball guy.

 

 

Well, it sounds like we're back in the middle of Moneyball's debate again, Beane or Grady Fuson?

 

The obvious answer is that statistics/computer analysis are but one too in the arsenal, but probably will never supercede actual scouting departments...or maybe all that information, with rise of the Internet and streaming video, will just be made available to everyone for a price.

 

Daniels in Texas doesn't really fit the mold you're talking about, he had more of a management/business background than a statistical analysis approach. I do think he went to Cornell, though, so he fits the Ivy League approach I suppose. Obviously, DiPodesta and Ricciardi have had "modest," at best, success. They certainly haven't tipped the scales forever to the Bill James side of thing, and many have since picked holes in that theory by citing the pitching success of Mulder/Hudson/Zito and a "rent a closer" being even a bigger factor in those teams failing to make the playoffs, but not having deep or consistent enough offensive attacks to beat superior talent in a head-to-head elimination series.

 

My take on Moore is that he's much more like "old school" like Schuerholz or Jocketty or Gillick than he is the SABR crowd. The Braves made their mark in producing dominating pitching staffs and incredible scouting to find position prospects and keep their minor league system in the Top 5-10 on a pretty consistent basis. The other team often compared with the A's (before the Rays' emergence) is the Twins, and they're not a SABR type of organization either. Even Beane, to me, is more of a horse trade and has an eye for a talent.....maybe their "screening" methods are a little different in terms of imposing their own form of order by focusing on college players like a Swisher or Blanton, but it's still a matter of picking the right guys. In the end, Miguel Olivo ended up being worth a lot more to the White Sox than Chad Bradford, because his acquisition led to Garcia and a WS title, something that Bradford, while a very solid/above average MLB reliever, never accomplished for the A's.

 

The new guy in Seattle seems like more of a hybrid between the two poles...I think KW is still more of a traditional scouting/eyeballing talent guy than anything else, despite his Stanford degree. I think of him signing someone like Iguchi just from watching video or projecting something in Ramirez that many scouts overlooked (athleticism, baseball instints, wrists/bat speed) because of his wiry frame.

 

It's cyclical. I'm sure we'll see NFL teams going with much younger/inexperienced head coaches like Tomlin, instead of retreads.

 

I also think the Red Sox, while they use those tools and have Bill James on staff....are, first and foremost, an anomaly because of their budgets and iconic status, but also a hybrid organization in the way they're now eschewing competing directly with the Yankees (although TEX was an exception) and making budget-conscious moves with high reward/low risk moves like Penny, Smoltz, Kotsay, Saito and Baldelli that will pay off if just two of those guys produce, rather than sinking all that money into Tex, Sabathia, Burnett, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[santo=dorf]

What makes it even funnier is the assumption that everytime Crede got a big hit he basically was making up for f***ing up earlier. Let's go back to the 2005 ALCS. Game 1 he was 1-4 with a homer. The Sox lost 3-2. Joe f***ed up. The one time up he was huge, but if he would have homered 4 times the Sox would have won. Game 2 when he doubled in Ozuna for the winner he was only 2-4 with 2 doubles. In the clincher he only drove in the first run. Then he homered to tie it up in the 7th. Then he drove in the go ahead and winning run in the 8th. I suppose if he would have done something in his second AB he wouldn't have had to come up big. Joe is not a HOFer. He was drafted by the White Sox. He played hurt, didn't complain, kept his mouth shut, and helped the White Sox win. I really find it odd people have a problem with him. He earned his paycheck. That can't be said about everyone.

My problem is how people start honoring Crede for his efforts by calling him the next Brooks Robinson or saying he's as good or even better than A-Rod. The way Sox fans talk about him is very comparable to how Cubs fans talk about Kerry Wood. There are still people who talk about "Kid-K's" 20k game like it happened yesterday. I really hope in 2015 people aren't doing the same thing with Joe.

 

How many people remember that after Crede's walk-off home run the Sox lost their next two games? I think Sizemore losing the flyball in KC was the back breaker that year.

Edited February 22, 2009 by santo=dorf

[Kalapse]

Not from me. I don't blame Fields and I wish him the best. I hope he outperforms Joe by a bunch now that Joe is gone.

I don't want Joe to excel just so I can say I was right.

I just truly as a Sox fan fear him strolling to the plate against us. I really really do.

The guy can hit.

And if he is in the game, he's gonna rob CQ and Lexi of some rockets down the line.

Yes I think Joe Crede is a god. So shoot me.

But in no way will I root against Fields. It's his time and I want him to excel and us to win.

I just truly fear Joe.

Hence the problem. The worshiping of a false idol, turning a baseball commoner into a baseball god. Some wonder why I "hate" Joe, I don't, I like him, I just can't stand it when people exaggerate a player's production/worth to this level and well, there's no other good discussion on here currently so I'm gonna make some Crede posts.

[GREEDY]

His lifetime .257 batting average and .306 on base percentage, as well as numerous other stats which seem irrelevant to point out since "stats don't matter", suggest that for the vast majority of Joe Crede's career, a late game hit simply was making up for earlier game f*** ups.

 

His "clutch hitting" tells me Crede is a "count" hitter and he excels when facing pitchers that have the tendency to fall behind. Relievers are twice as likely to walk you and prolly five times as likely to fall behind 2-0, 3-1.

 

I also wonder if we didn't have such a "homer" announcer that was telling the audience how "clutch" Crede is everytime he came to plate, I have a feeling Joe's reputation as a late inning hero wouldn't be as prevelant.

 

Finally, Crede, like all White Sox players has benefited from playing at The Cell.

 

In 2009 Joe Crede will hit less than fifteen home runs.

 

[GREEDY]

The guy can hit.

 

His career .306 OBP in a hitter's paradise says you are incorrect.

[Dick Allen]

Hence the problem. The worshiping of a false idol, turning a baseball commoner into a baseball god. Some wonder why I "hate" Joe, I don't, I like him, I just can't stand it when people exaggerate a player's production/worth to this level and well, there's no other good discussion on here currently so I'm gonna make some Crede posts.

You said earlier if Fields maintains his 2007 batting average (.244) and adds a little to his walk rate, he becomes a very valuable player. Crede is a lifetime .257 hitter. He has had some big moments and his glove, while you don't think its anything special, has been better than Fields. Wouldn't that make Crede a very valuable player during his White Sox career?

[Dick Allen]

Well lucky for Josh the season doesn't end in mid-September. And that .229/.283/.433/.716 line Josh had through September 14th as a 24 year old (before finishing the season with a 1.295 OPS over his final 56 PA) isn't far off from the .239/.299/.418/.717 line Crede put up as a 26 year old.

 

Oh if only the season lasted from the beginning of June to mid September the .296/.337/.428/.765 line Brian put up over that exact same span in '06 would have earned him the starting gig in '07 and we never would have had to see Darin Erstad in a White Sox uniform.

So the argument is evertime Crede came up big if he would have done something earlier it would have made his heroics mute, but Josh Fields tearing it up the final 2 weeks of Sept. 2007 in a battle for last place against the Royals is significant. In July and August 2006, BA hit over .300 combined. He had a tough Sept. and hit .257 post all star break. There was more to the BA story than performance or potential. Ozzie just didn't like him. He probably still doesn't, but at least he can tolerate him now and hopefully give him a fair shot.

[santo=dorf]

His "clutch hitting" tells me Crede is a "count" hitter and he excels when facing pitchers that have the tendency to fall behind. Relievers are twice as likely to walk you and prolly five times as likely to fall behind 2-0, 3-1.

 

I also wonder if we didn't have such a "homer" announcer that was telling the audience how "clutch" Crede is everytime he came to plate, I have a feeling Joe's reputation as a late inning hero wouldn't be as prevelant.

 

Finally, Crede, like all White Sox players has benefited from playing at The Cell.

 

In 2009 Joe Crede will hit less than fifteen home runs.

Honestly, you can look at about just about any player and see their numbers are way better when the are "in the catbird seat."

[RockRaines]

How is this 8 pages? Who cares. He'll face us a few times this season before his back acts up on that turf and he will be with another team after that.

[elrockinMT]

As a fan you have every right to worship any player you want and call out the folks that want to degrade or downgrade your heroes. I like Joe Crede. If you don't then fine and I won't think less of any poster that says a particular player is better off gone-I may doubt their rationale-but I won't speak or write badly about them. I am always troubled by some of the outright hostility and negativity though. I like Joe Crede period. From me that's the end of the story. Who knows what the future will bring for Joe as a Twinkie (which just galls me to heck) but I wish him well. The Twins signing of Crede kind of reminds me of when Bill Veeck signed Eric Soderholm of the Twins after he had knee surgery. Soderholm bounced back and did a very good job for the Sox, but the Sox were the only ones to take a chance on him.

[lostfan]

I am always troubled by some of the outright hostility and negativity though.

There is none. Really. There isn't. Seriously.

 

It always comes back to this: Poster A says something to the effect of "Fields can be better" or "it's time for the Sox to let Crede go" or "I think Crede is overvalued by some because of x, y, and z." Poster B takes personal offense to this. Poster A is forced, again, to explain that he actually likes Crede, respects Crede for his contributions to 2005, or both. This is usually not good enough for Poster B who does not let the argument go even though Poster A was trying to highlight a simple difference opinion.

 

This back-and-forth continues indefinitely, which brings us to this current thread. Which I'm going to attempt to stop reading and posting in.

[Kyyle23]

There is none. Really. There isn't. Seriously.

 

It always comes back to this: Poster A says something to the effect of "Fields can be better" or "it's time for the Sox to let Crede go" or "I think Crede is overvalued by some because of x, y, and z." Poster B takes personal offense to this. Poster A is forced, again, to explain that he actually likes Crede, respects Crede for his contributions to 2005, or both. This is usually not good enough for Poster B who does not let the argument go even though Poster A was trying to highlight a simple difference opinion.

 

This back-and-forth continues indefinitely, which brings us to this current thread. Which I'm going to attempt to stop reading and posting in.

 

You also forget Poster C, who says everytime Crede's name is mentioned "I wish the Sox would go and sign Crede"(Crede can be switched with Rowand at any time), which is also an additional irritant to the Poster A and B argument

[lostfan]

You also forget Poster C, who says everytime Crede's name is mentioned "I wish the Sox would go and sign Crede"(Crede can be switched with Rowand at any time), which is also an additional irritant to the Poster A and B argument

true.

 

Also I should add that Poster B usually says he is ok with fans having a different opinion, but never actually shows this via actions and has a hissy fit every time someone says something that's not positive. Poster A's urge to argue is amplified every time he reads a post from Poster B, he tries to let it lie but can't help himself.

[knightni]

Poster K wishes that everyone would just shut the hell up about Crede.

[Kyyle23]

Poster K wishes that everyone would just shut the hell up about Crede.

 

It has yet to be determined who Poster K really is. There are a few candidates. There could be a Poster K and a Poster K-1a

[Kalapse]

You said earlier if Fields maintains his 2007 batting average (.244) and adds a little to his walk rate, he becomes a very valuable player. Crede is a lifetime .257 hitter. He has had some big moments and his glove, while you don't think its anything special, has been better than Fields. Wouldn't that make Crede a very valuable player during his White Sox career?

Crede has been a valuable player over the course of his career, I've never said otherwise. You don't have to be an MVP candidate to have good value to a club. His price, great defense and moderate offensive output made him a valuable piece to the White Sox organization over the few full, productive seasons he played with the club. If Josh can put up a mid to high .700 OPS (if he maintains his AVG and increases his walk rate he'll be sitting in the upper .700's) while making $500K and adding a little athleticism to the lineup (something people have been clamoring for) I'm confident that his defense at 3rd will be adequate enough to make him a fairly valuable comodity.

[Kalapse]

As a fan you have every right to worship any player you want and call out the folks that want to degrade or downgrade your heroes. I like Joe Crede. If you don't then fine and I won't think less of any poster that says a particular player is better off gone-I may doubt their rationale-but I won't speak or write badly about them. I am always troubled by some of the outright hostility and negativity though. I like Joe Crede period. From me that's the end of the story. Who knows what the future will bring for Joe as a Twinkie (which just galls me to heck) but I wish him well. The Twins signing of Crede kind of reminds me of when Bill Veeck signed Eric Soderholm of the Twins after he had knee surgery. Soderholm bounced back and did a very good job for the Sox, but the Sox were the only ones to take a chance on him.

Christ, it's like you're reading a different f***ing board. Show me one malicious remark aimed at Joe Crede, just one and I'll never mention his name again.

[Kalapse]

I love this post. It's an excellent example of the presumption that there is a statistical value for every facet of the game; or even more important, that this value is definite and therefore its significance cannot be called into question. And I'm not asking this rhetorically, but who are these very smart baseball people who say there is no such thing as a "clutch" hitter? Are they former players/managers/scouts, people with an intuition for the game, people who don't rely solely on a mathematical figure to evaluate a player's worth? Is it really surprising that Sox fans and their circle are the only ones who truly appreciated Crede's value in crucial moments of a game, given the overall lack of scrutiny (both positive and negative) that the 2nd team in Chicago receives? I don't think there's any sort of distortion going on here, no myths are being perpetuated. In the last four years, in a key moment late in a game, who are the guys you want to see up at the plate? Crede and Dye are at the top of my list.

 

I happen to agree with you that our bullpen should be able to handle Crede; I also dread having to face him late in the game in a key situation, say with runners in scoring position and the Sox clinging to a small lead. And I don't think I am deluding myself, or that this dread is unfounded.

I can't believe I skipped over this. It's Carlos Quentin, easily. He's the best offensive threat the Sox have had since Dye's '06 season (and whether you believe in them or not Carlos' splits are so much better than Dye's that it's really hard to ignore) and Maggio/Frank in '03 before that so therefore I want Carlos at the plate in any crucial situation. Dye would probably be #2 on my list.

[Kalapse]

So the argument is evertime Crede came up big if he would have done something earlier it would have made his heroics mute, but Josh Fields tearing it up the final 2 weeks of Sept. 2007 in a battle for last place against the Royals is significant. In July and August 2006, BA hit over .300 combined. He had a tough Sept. and hit .257 post all star break. There was more to the BA story than performance or potential. Ozzie just didn't like him. He probably still doesn't, but at least he can tolerate him now and hopefully give him a fair shot.

Considering he was a rookie in his first go 'round in the bigs, facing mostly major league pitching for the first time in his life, yeah I'd say that entire season is significant and since I'm not about to discount any other player's September numbers after the division had already been decided I don't expect anyone else too. Once you start doing that you can turn some ok seasons into horrific ones.

[knightni]

Show me one malicious remark aimed at Joe Crede, just one and I'll never mention his name again.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=702685

 

 

[Kalapse]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=702685

Seriously? That's not at all what I meant and the fact that you apparently had that on the back burner is just weird.

[knightni]

Seriously? That's not at all what I meant and the fact that you apparently had that on the back burner is just weird.

 

I just wanted to see what you'd say.

 

Google search.

[Kyyle23]

Am I missing something in that Kaz Matsui thread that Knightni just brought up? I have looked it over 3 times, and I cannot find a Kalapse comment about Crede

[NorthSideSox72]

It really kinda sucks that the send-off thread for Joe Crede, who at least can be said to have been an important player for the Sox, has turned into a snipe fest.

 

[greg775]

Hence the problem. The worshiping of a false idol, turning a baseball commoner into a baseball god. Some wonder why I "hate" Joe, I don't, I like him, I just can't stand it when people exaggerate a player's production/worth to this level and well, there's no other good discussion on here currently so I'm gonna make some Crede posts.

 

I don't think he's a false idol. Except for last year (hopefully he'll continue to be weak with the glove with the Twinks) he was a great great fielder. As a Sox fan I loved the fact we had such a reliable glove at third. I personally don't think Josh is a reliable glove. We'll see.

I'm never going to pour over ever stat like most of the younger crowd does. The wild stats.

All I know is as a fan I loved his defense (maybe last year is a sign he is through; we'll see) and I loved his bat when he got hot. I also loved his contributions to the title.

If Josh is ready to take over, great.

I want him to succeed because like everybody else whether the Sox win or lose pretty much dictates my mood during the summer.