JOE.CREDE. = Twinkie

[Dick Allen]

This is good news for the White Sox. If Josh Field needed any more motivation to perform, here it is. With the rivalries between these two teams all Fields will have to do is pick up the paper to see the inevitable Crede comparison breathing down his neck, and with the type of personality Fields has this could be exactly what he needs to get his ass in gear.

If Josh Fields needs more motivation to perform, its time to look elsewhere for a 3b.

[Soxpranos]

Did Joe Crede steal your GF or something? I notice that anytime anybody attempts to give him even a shred of credit you come swooping in with all this Bills James, Sabermetrics, Bible awards, zone rating, ect in an all out attempt to dismiss him as some bottom-tier third baseman who did nothing for the franchise save October, 2005.

 

You're asking for proof of Crede's clutchness? Are you serious? A Sox fan? Who gives a s*** if Crede doesn't make some Bill James list. Do you want a list of games from 2004, '05 and '06 in which Crede saved our asses? I expect somebody from the east coast to have no clue about anything not Yankees/Redsox, but c'mon now. Am I glad Crede is gone? Yes. He's too much of an injury risk and is no longer a fit with this franchise. That's fine. But don't try and discredit all the good that he did here when healthy with this endless barrage of new-aged statistical formulas (i.e. he's not good if Bill James doesn't say so) that are flawed to begin with. Ain't nothin' like actually watching the games. Bill James be damned.

 

Good point dude, those are actual facts you speak about. Some guys just try to damn hard to look smart. Thank you Joe for all your Clutch hitting.. GL

Edited February 21, 2009 by Soxpranos

[fathom]

As someone else said, I'm much more concerned with the possibility of the Twins acquiring Juan Cruz.

[whitesoxfan101]

He's going to look dirty in a Twins uniform. He'll never stay healthy again, and he was overrated for most of his career here (sorry, he was), but he was a big part in us winning a World Series, he played very good defense, and he had as many big hits as anybody, so he was of great use for us. I can't wish him the best because of where he signed, but I'm glad he played for us overall.

[YASNY]

I'd say third, behind Perry and Ventura.

 

Also, I think your statement speaks more to the quality of our 3B's.

 

Sorry, but Perry, while he was good for a short period of time with Sox, doesn't match up to either Ventura or Crede when it comes to quality, long term performance at 3B. I'll tip my hat to Perry, but he doesn't rate near as high in my opinion as the other two.

[Dick Allen]

As someone else said, I'm much more concerned with the possibility of the Twins acquiring Juan Cruz.

With the sign and trade supposedly being available, I'm surprised KW hasn't tried to make something happen. He has been interested in Cruz before.

[Texsox]

I'd say third, behind Perry and Ventura.

 

Also, I think your statement speaks more to the quality of our 3B's.

 

Well yes it does. So why would anyone that uses past history (stats) to predict the future, believe the next guy will be better? Stats are a wonderful way to analyze the past, but only one tool to predict the future.

[zenryan]

damn, I didnt realize how many of Crede's relatives posted on this site.

[Texsox]

damn, I didnt realize how many of Crede's relatives posted on this site.

 

While healthy, and admittedly that was a weakness, 3B was not a weakness for the club like it was for most of the time between Robin and Joe. Why so many Sox fans are eager to return to that time is beyond me. If you believe that makes me (us) fan boys, well you are entitled to your opinion.

[Steve9347]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-2...1,0,58668.story

 

JOE.CREDE. is a Twin.

I might just vomit a bit.

 

This is a total spite signing... they could have had Orlando Hudson for less!

[Kalapse]

Yep, basically what I expected. Obviously I'm just trying to look smart or I hate Joe Crede or something.

[Linnwood]

Joe Cowley:

Sox players were excited Crede signed with the Twins. Why? The concensus was that they can rip him from their dugout more easily now.

 

https://twitter.com/cst_sox/statuses/1234778989

[Jordan4life_2007]

Joe Crede made a reputation on this site for being one of the best players on the team in the span of half of a year (September 2005 through the break of 2006). Other than that time frame, he was never anything more than mediocre. I watched the games, too.

 

I haven't seen too many people from this site deem Joe Crede Scott Rolen in his prime. Yes, you have some that go a little overboard (homers will be homers). But you have some, and Kalapse, who's obviously an excellent poster, happens to be the one I notice the most that goes out of his way to tear Crede down whenever somebody says something good about him. Joe Crede was never great. I know this. But two things that a healthy Joe Crede was very good at was (1) playing damn near GG caliber defense at third (I don't care what defensive formula anybody throws out there) and (2) having the ability to come through in the clutch countless times, be it regular season or playoffs. Was that a fluke? Probably. Most guys that get as many big hits as he did are usually elite hitters. Crede was obviously nowhere close to being an elite hitter. But facts are facts. I can think of at least 8 games off the top of my head that were either tied (the slam against the the Astros in 2006 was my favorite, and cemented his status as a prime time clutch performer) or won off of late-inning heroics by Crede.

[santo=dorf]

Jose Contreras carried the 2005 team down the stretch and through the playoffs more than anyone.

 

August: 3-1, 2.14 ERA, 1.19 WHIP

September: 6-0, 1.99 ERA, .99 WHIP

He was a lock for a win everytime he took the mound.

 

I never like seeing ex-White Sox players in Twins uniforms, especially one that helped us win it all back in 05. I honestly don't see Crede being real healthy on that turf of theirs.

Like whom? Matt Guerrier doesn't count because he never played for the Sox.

[The Ginger Kid]

Can you prove this? I'll take any form of statistical proof, any. I'll even take splits stats even if they are unreliable. It's funny because a lot of very smart baseball people are of the belief that there is no such thing as a "clutch" hitter, just good hitters who do good things in big situations because they're good but even when a Sabermetrician like Bill James or Nate Silver attempts to quantify "clutch hitting" Joe Crede's name NEVER comes up. I've seen Mike Sweeney (the perpetually injured) and Chipper Jones (the great) and even Geoff Jenkins (the average) but never Joe Crede. The only people who seem to believe that he's anything more than a mediocre offensive player are Sox fans and Hawk but none of these people ever bother to back up this belief, just perpetuate it as fact. I've mentioned this in the past and no one has ever bothered to acknowledge it, could it be that the man has just come through in a few very memorable "clutch" situations and this has berthed an undeserved reputation? (it would hardly be the first time)

 

Oh and his 0.5 BB/K and .267/.325/.435/.760 career line against relief pitching hardly scares me, Linebrink and Dotel will handle him just fine.

 

Yeah, I know it's blasphemy but I'm not fearing the crippled, pull hitting, popup machine. Just looking now, Bill James has him down for 302 AB, 14 HR, 0.5 BB/K, .255/.312/.447/.759 next year. Look out.

I love this post. It's an excellent example of the presumption that there is a statistical value for every facet of the game; or even more important, that this value is definite and therefore its significance cannot be called into question. And I'm not asking this rhetorically, but who are these very smart baseball people who say there is no such thing as a "clutch" hitter? Are they former players/managers/scouts, people with an intuition for the game, people who don't rely solely on a mathematical figure to evaluate a player's worth? Is it really surprising that Sox fans and their circle are the only ones who truly appreciated Crede's value in crucial moments of a game, given the overall lack of scrutiny (both positive and negative) that the 2nd team in Chicago receives? I don't think there's any sort of distortion going on here, no myths are being perpetuated. In the last four years, in a key moment late in a game, who are the guys you want to see up at the plate? Crede and Dye are at the top of my list.

 

I happen to agree with you that our bullpen should be able to handle Crede; I also dread having to face him late in the game in a key situation, say with runners in scoring position and the Sox clinging to a small lead. And I don't think I am deluding myself, or that this dread is unfounded.

[santo=dorf]

Well yes it does. So why would anyone that uses past history (stats) to predict the future, believe the next guy will be better? Stats are a wonderful way to analyze the past, but only one tool to predict the future.

How about this: Crede's back won't let him match numbers he had in 2005 or 2006? Or, Crede's new "home" is a place that doesn't suit his hitting style nor has he had much success there?

[Kalapse]

Did Joe Crede steal your GF or something? I notice that anytime anybody attempts to give him even a shred of credit you come swooping in with all this Bills James, Sabermetrics, Bible awards, zone rating, ect in an all out attempt to dismiss him as some bottom-tier third baseman who did nothing for the franchise save October, 2005.

 

You're asking for proof of Crede's clutchness? Are you serious? A Sox fan? Who gives a s*** if Crede doesn't make some Bill James list. Do you want a list of games from 2004, '05 and '06 in which Crede saved our asses? I expect somebody from the east coast to have no clue about anything not Yankees/Redsox, but c'mon now. Am I glad Crede is gone? Yes. He's too much of an injury risk and is no longer a fit with this franchise. That's fine. But don't try and discredit all the good that he did here when healthy with this endless barrage of new-aged statistical formulas (i.e. he's not good if Bill James doesn't say so) that are flawed to begin with. Ain't nothin' like actually watching the games. Bill James be damned.

Sure, that would be nice, there have been many attempts to quantify exactly what that and none of them favor Mr. Crede but I know they're flawed and mean nothing even though you probably have no idea how any of it works. I know, I know, I'm not a Sox fan, you got me. And yes those evil east coast nerds actually sqew the numbers to make players on mid-west teams look bad all those f***ers care about is the SAWX! Lucky for Mike Sweeney and Geoff Jenkins (2 names that tend to come up) they spent their entire careers on the east coast so the evil Bill James was able to get a good look at them.

 

And I never said he did nothing for the f***ing franchise or that he's a bottom tier 3B, that's you trying to discredit me via hyperbole. He is not one of the best players in the game at his position, he's never been the best defensive 3B in his league (though he's been close, as I've said) and I refuse to believe he comes through in an inordinate number of "clutch" situations just because he had a reputation for doing so, that's how playes like Derek Jeter and Michael Young win gold gloves or Brandon Webb nearly steals a Cy Young from Tim Lincecum or Johan Santana.

 

Just because you don't believe in sabermetrics (or even basic statistics I suppose) doesn't mean you have to questin my fandom. The entire point of sabermetrics and the sabr movement is objectively anylize the game of baseball, believe it or not they're not out to destroy all playes outside the east coast they're just trying to answer the baseball questions that people have ignored from the game's inception.

 

I'm just looking for a little non-anectdotal evidence, believe it or not no matter how many games you watch or how good your memory is there is no way for you to recall exactly how a player performs in a given situation, especially one as objective as "clutch" you're gonna tend to remember the times he came through big and forget the failures especially when he was a key member of a Championship team and performed as well in the postseason as he did.

 

I didn't expect anyone to even try to answer my question, with someone as beloved as Joe you're better off not questioning his play there's just far too much emotion involved. I guess that's to be expected considering the White Sox's inability to fill that position for much of their history.

[Texsox]

How about this: Crede's back won't let him match numbers he had in 2005 or 2006? Or, Crede's new "home" is a place that doesn't suit his hitting style nor has he had much success there?

 

I am not a medical Doctor, so I cannot make claims about his back. We'll see.

 

It doesn't suit his hitting style.

 

The important question is thus, are the Sox better or worse off at 3B? Someone show me the statistical proof that 3B will be better.

[Kalapse]

I am not a medical Doctor, so I cannot make claims about his back. We'll see.

 

It doesn't suit his hitting style.

 

The important question is thus, are the Sox better or worse off at 3B? Someone show me the statistical proof that 3B will be better.

Not having to play Juan Uribe or Andy Gonzalez at the position for 60+ games will be nice. Pretty much all projections have Josh Fields putting up equal or better numbers than Joe next season over more ABs, I know this means nothing to you but it is the case.

[Kalapse]

I love this post. It's an excellent example of the presumption that there is a statistical value for every facet of the game; or even more important, that this value is definite and therefore its significance cannot be called into question. And I'm not asking this rhetorically, but who are these very smart baseball people who say there is no such thing as a "clutch" hitter? Are they former players/managers/scouts, people with an intuition for the game, people who don't rely solely on a mathematical figure to evaluate a player's worth? Is it really surprising that Sox fans and their circle are the only ones who truly appreciated Crede's value in crucial moments of a game, given the overall lack of scrutiny (both positive and negative) that the 2nd team in Chicago receives? I don't think there's any sort of distortion going on here, no myths are being perpetuated. In the last four years, in a key moment late in a game, who are the guys you want to see up at the plate? Crede and Dye are at the top of my list.

 

I happen to agree with you that our bullpen should be able to handle Crede; I also dread having to face him late in the game in a key situation, say with runners in scoring position and the Sox clinging to a small lead. And I don't think I am deluding myself, or that this dread is unfounded.

They're the people who are running baseball teams, the people who make millions just to hold the title of adviser or consultant. They're people like Dayton Moore, Theo Epstein or Jack Zduriencik, the sort of baseball minds that teams are hiring to construct their organizations these days. Despite not playing or managing at the major league level they're winning championships or like the Rays coming damn close and threatening to stick around for a while. It's the reason why teams are hiring 35 year old Harvard grads to run their organizations and moving away from the crusty old baseball guy.

[santo=dorf]

I am not a medical Doctor, so I cannot make claims about his back. We'll see.

 

It doesn't suit his hitting style.

 

The important question is thus, are the Sox better or worse off at 3B? Someone show me the statistical proof that 3B will be better.

You're in the wrong thread. This is about Crede signing with the Twins. As it was stated earlier, the Sox did not offer arbitration to Crede. I honestly can't recall if there was a recent change in the CBA about this, but teams can't negoitate or sign a player until May if they don't offer the player arbitration. It happened with the Astros and Roger Clemens. If this is still in the contract, there's no point in even considering Crede an option for the Sox at third base.

 

So far in this thread I have seen "Crede is a health concern, and his hitting style isn't a good fit for the Twins." That has been countered with "OMG he's clutch. Don't you remember 2005?

 

Can we please do all we can to avoid turning the 2005 Sox into the 1985 Bears? Did anyone really feel backstabbed when Jim McMahon was in a Super Bowl with the Packers?

[Kalapse]

I'm not even looking for some complex mathematical formula, just something better than "I watch all the games and this is what my memory tells me", guess what? Memories are not infallible, in fact they often lie, they're swayed by public opinion and a desire to remember the good moments. It's the reason why we have people claiming that Mike MacDougal was demoted because he allowed an inordinate number of inherited runners to score when in actuality he stranded all of them or why people seem to think Octavio Dotel was horrible last season or that he crumbled more often than not in big situations when that's just not the case. I'm just looking for a little objectivity but I don't think that's possible with a subject such as this.

[Dick Allen]

Not having to play Juan Uribe or Andy Gonzalez at the position for 60+ games will be nice. Pretty much all projections have Josh Fields putting up equal or better numbers than Joe next season over more ABs, I know this means nothing to you but it is the case.

Fields' PECOTA numbers has him hitting .236 with 20 homers in 476 AB. If Crede did that, he would be horrible.. We aren't even talking defense.

[Benchwarmerjim]

I am one person who likes the Joe Crede signing

 

 

[Kalapse]

Fields' PECOTA numbers has him hitting .236 with 20 homers in 476 AB. If Crede did that, he would be horrible.. We aren't even talking defense.

Joe hit .248 last year and .239 in 2004 so if he somehow managed to get 476 AB .236 wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. We're comparing Fields to a hitter with a .306 career OBP and 5.8% (4.6% in 2006) walk rate, it shouldn't be too hard for Josh to top that.