Balta1701 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 12:30 PM) There is no such thing as an over-the-counter drug that is injected. I'm not so sure about that. Isn't it actually possible to get things like vitamins (Tejada's infamous B-12 shots) that are legally taken in injection form without a prescription? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 12:29 PM) Those are $250 million reasons to understand it. I think the fact that he's gotten the money, what, 2x now, suggests that I'm right and you're wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 02:30 PM) There is no such thing as an over-the-counter drug that is injected. Sidebar, your point is correct, but of interest. In the US no over the counter. Remember drug laws are different in other countries. I've seen a few in Mexico (legal) pharmacies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 02:36 PM) I think the fact that he's gotten the money, what, 2x now, suggests that I'm right and you're wrong. Perhaps I am missing your point. I believe since he was getting $250 mil, he knew what was in his contract, what could null and void the contract, exactly what he was taking, and that it was illegal. He knowingly cheated to get his $250 mil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (tonyho7476 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) Its all such garbage...more people are involved...by saying its a cousin in the dominican, he's trying to keep people from digging deeper. He's a piece of crap like the rest of them...a rich piece of crap...but still a piece of crap. Are all PED users pieces of crap? Just interested, because at one time, I thought they were, but I've changed. Edited February 17, 2009 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:40 PM) Perhaps I am missing your point. I believe since he was getting $250 mil, he knew what was in his contract, what could null and void the contract, exactly what he was taking, and that it was illegal. He knowingly cheated to get his $250 mil. Players have cheated in baseball ever since they started playing. Why is taking steroids so bad, but throwing spitballs, scuffing balls, taking amphetimines, corking bats..etc. just laughed at as part of the game? I used to think I wouldn't want any PED users on the White Sox, but the more I think about it, they were just looking for an edge just like everyone else was doing other things. The home run record may be sacred, but if it really is, why did they expand the season? Where's the outrage there? Why aren't people complaining about smaller more hitter friendly parks? And oh, by the way, pitchers percentage-wise probably use PEDs more often or at least as often as hitters. If Barry Bonds faces Roger Clemens, shouldn't that be a wash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 02:41 PM) Are all PED users pieces of crap? Just interested, because at one time, I thought they were, but I've changed. I'd say so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (tonyho7476 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 02:55 PM) I'd say so....at least ones who try and weasle their way out of it by playing dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (tonyho7476 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:55 PM) I'd say so. So you aren't a Tyler Flowers guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 02:46 PM) Players have cheated in baseball ever since they started playing. Why is taking steroids so bad, but throwing spitballs, scuffing balls, taking amphetimines, corking bats..etc. just laughed at as part of the game? I used to think I wouldn't want any PED users on the White Sox, but the more I think about it, they were just looking for an edge just like everyone else was doing other things. The home run record may be sacred, but if it really is, why did they expand the season? Where's the outrage there? Why aren't people complaining about smaller more hitter friendly parks? And oh, by the way, pitchers percentage-wise probably use PEDs more often or at least as often as hitters. If Barry Bonds faces Roger Clemens, shouldn't that be a wash? And when they got caught, they were not just laughed at, they were also tossed out of games, suspended, etc. The unique problem with steroids is, unlike a substance on the ball, scuffing, or even corking a bat, there is no evidence that can be observed on the field. Yes, people have cheated and gotten away with it, but that does not make it right, nor absolve those who are entrusted to run the game, their responsibility to catch those that cheat and punish them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 04:03 PM) And when they got caught, they were not just laughed at, they were also tossed out of games, suspended, etc. The unique problem with steroids is, unlike a substance on the ball, scuffing, or even corking a bat, there is no evidence that can be observed on the field. Yes, people have cheated and gotten away with it, but that does not make it right, nor absolve those who are entrusted to run the game, their responsibility to catch those that cheat and punish them. Why is getting caught the end all? Listen to Hawk talk about corking bats. He laughs about it. He talks about guys scuffing balls and throwing spitters, again, they laugh. Cheating is cheating. What's unique about steroids is it benefits both hitter and pitcher. More pitchers threw in the 90s during the steroid era than ever before. The hitters are the ones, except for Clemens, who are being hung here, even guys like Sosa who never has been caught. Has there been one pitcher other than the Rocket with zero positive tests that has even been speculated about? I think that's one thing that's lost here. The pitchers these guys were facing were doing the exact same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:10 PM) Why is getting caught the end all? Listen to Hawk talk about corking bats. He laughs about it. He talks about guys scuffing balls and throwing spitters, again, they laugh. Cheating is cheating. What's unique about steroids is it benefits both hitter and pitcher. More pitchers threw in the 90s during the steroid era than ever before. The hitters are the ones, except for Clemens, who are being hung here, even guys like Sosa who never has been caught. Has there been one pitcher other than the Rocket with zero positive tests that has even been speculated about? I think that's one thing that's lost here. The pitchers these guys were facing were doing the exact same thing. Again, when Sammy was caught with the corked bat, he was punished. When guys were caught scuffing the ball, throwing spitters, they were punished. Sure, they were laughed at. So let's also laigh at Bonds and the rest happy? So some kids go out and try to scuff a ball or cork a bat, they learn a bit about physics and don't hurt themselves. Now look at steroids No way to catch them on the field. It damages their bodies, when kids emulate them, it damages their bodies. They are cheating 100% of the time. Using your logic, we would never enforce any rules or laws. Why do w ignore someone who is speeding 5 mph over the limit and arrest someone speeding 50 mph over the limit? Why do we call a kids mom when he is caught stealing a candy bar and call the police when he grabs $$$$ out of the register? You can keep pretending to not see the difference, but realize you are in a very small minority of people who cannot understand the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 04:17 PM) Again, when Sammy was caught with the corked bat, he was punished. When guys were caught scuffing the ball, throwing spitters, they were punished. Sure, they were laughed at. So let's also laigh at Bonds and the rest happy? So some kids go out and try to scuff a ball or cork a bat, they learn a bit about physics and don't hurt themselves. Now look at steroids No way to catch them on the field. It damages their bodies, when kids emulate them, it damages their bodies. They are cheating 100% of the time. Using your logic, we would never enforce any rules or laws. Why do w ignore someone who is speeding 5 mph over the limit and arrest someone speeding 50 mph over the limit? Why do we call a kids mom when he is caught stealing a candy bar and call the police when he grabs $$$$ out of the register? You can keep pretending to not see the difference, but realize you are in a very small minority of people who cannot understand the difference. Saying some forms of cheating are OK and some are not doesn't make sense to me. If I ever was caught stealing a candy bar I know my punishment at home would have made me want to be in jail. I think what I'm saying is the other trangressions were cheating as well. People laughed. Gaylord Perry is a HOFer, he cheated. So did Phil Niekro, and many, many others. How many players do you think used greenies the past 30-40 years? When ARod tested positive, there were no penalties in place in MLB for this type of cheating. None. Now there are. I never said look the other way, but keeping guys out of the HOF, because of one or two positive tests seems ludicrious. How many times did Steve Howe test positive for cocaine? Tim Raines was a cokehead, but a lot of people here think he's a HOF. Did kids snort lines because Tim Raines did? Its sad ARod made the choice he made. Its even sadder a most predictable press conference occurs. Its time to move on. The testing is in place. I still think many are using and are ahead of the tests. The only reason steroids are an issue is the home run records. When Sosa and McGwire were hitting everything out of the park in 1998 nobody blinked an eye. If they hit 50-55 each and everyone stayed around there, I believe there still would be no issue. Just remember, the guys pitching the ball were also users. Edited February 17, 2009 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:27 PM) I think what I'm saying is the other trangressions were cheating as well. People laughed. Gaylord Perry is a HOFer, he cheated. So did Phil Niekro, and many, many others. How many players do you think used greenies the past 30-40 years? When ARod tested positive, there were no penalties in place in MLB for this type of cheating. None. Now there are. I never said look the other way, but keeping guys out of the HOF, because of one or two positive tests seems ludicrious. How many times did Steve Howe test positive for cocaine? Tim Raines was a cokehead, but a lot of people here think he's a HOF. Did kids snort lines because Tim Raines did? Its sad ARod made the choice he made. Its even sadder a most predictable press conference occurs. Its time to move on. The testing is in place. I still think many are using and are ahead of the tests. The only reason steroids are an issue is the home run records. When Sosa and McGwire were hitting everything out of the park in 1998 nobody blinked an eye. If they hit 50-55 each and everyone stayed around there, I believe there still would be no issue. Just remember, the guys pitching the ball were also users. There are degrees of cheating, much like there are degrees of speeding, stealing, etc. Most people view steroids as cheating at a far greater degree than the transgressions you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Dick, are you suggesting that cheating is cheating and since some got away with it, or it was laughed off, that all cheating should be treated the same and laughed off? Would you enforce any rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Texsox @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 04:35 PM) Dick, are you suggesting that cheating is cheating and since some got away with it, or it was laughed off, that all cheating should be treated the same and laughed off? Would you enforce any rules? Of course not. I'm all for penalties, but they should not include not getting into the HOF. And cheating from past eras should be examined as well. Maybe make baseball like golf. If you're out and the umpire calls you safe, tell him you were out and go back to the dugout. ARod not in the HOF? That's ridiculous. As I said, he's also facing juiced up pitchers. I'm saying cheating has always been laughed at. What a player could get away with has always been sort of admired. I don't admire anyone taking steroids, but if there were no penalties when this cheating occurred, what can you do about it? Guys with a HOF vote try to use their power to keep guys out of the HOF, when, most likely, guys they do elect, at least a few of them, used, and either weren't caught, or it wasn't obvious. Sammy Sosa won't get in the HOF and he's never tested positive as far as I know. Is that fair? He got bigger. He played 15 years and gained 50 pounds of muscle. It looks very suspicious, but its not impossible to be done without cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 04:27 PM) Saying some forms of cheating are OK and some are not doesn't make sense to me. If I ever was caught stealing a candy bar I know my punishment at home would have made me want to be in jail. I think what I'm saying is the other trangressions were cheating as well. People laughed. Gaylord Perry is a HOFer, he cheated. So did Phil Niekro, and many, many others. How many players do you think used greenies the past 30-40 years? When ARod tested positive, there were no penalties in place in MLB for this type of cheating. None. Now there are. I never said look the other way, but keeping guys out of the HOF, because of one or two positive tests seems ludicrious. How many times did Steve Howe test positive for cocaine? Tim Raines was a cokehead, but a lot of people here think he's a HOF. Did kids snort lines because Tim Raines did? Its sad ARod made the choice he made. Its even sadder a most predictable press conference occurs. Its time to move on. The testing is in place. I still think many are using and are ahead of the tests. The only reason steroids are an issue is the home run records. When Sosa and McGwire were hitting everything out of the park in 1998 nobody blinked an eye. If they hit 50-55 each and everyone stayed around there, I believe there still would be no issue. Cocaine doesn't help you play baseball better, nor does using it help you make money by playing baseball better. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 04:27 PM) Just remember, the guys pitching the ball were also users. They all weren't. I don't see what you're getting at. Guys cheated on both ends, but all players on each end weren't using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 04:42 PM) Of course not. I'm all for penalties, but they should not include not getting into the HOF. And cheating from past eras should be examined as well. Maybe make baseball like golf. If you're out and the umpire calls you safe, tell him you were out and go back to the dugout. ARod not in the HOF? That's ridiculous. As I said, he's also facing juiced up pitchers. I'm saying cheating has always been laughed at. What a player could get away with has always been sort of admired. I don't admire anyone taking steroids, but if there were no penalties when this cheating occurred, what can you do about it? Guys with a HOF vote try to use their power to keep guys out of the HOF, when, most likely, guys they do elect, at least a few of them, used, and either weren't caught, or it wasn't obvious. Sammy Sosa won't get in the HOF and he's never tested positive as far as I know. Is that fair? He got bigger. He played 15 years and gained 50 pounds of muscle. It looks very suspicious, but its not impossible to be done without cheating. Hell yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:42 PM) It looks very suspicious, but its not impossible to be done without cheating. No...you can never look like he did without roids...you can get big and strong...but not the way these guys looked. Impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:03 PM) So you aren't a Tyler Flowers guy. If he tested positive for PEDs, during this time of baseball, he is a true idiot...and I guess I don't like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 02:36 PM) I'm not so sure about that. Isn't it actually possible to get things like vitamins (Tejada's infamous B-12 shots) that are legally taken in injection form without a prescription? I am 95% sure that, even vitamins, if injected, requires a doctor's note, aka a prescription. Even though B12 is available OTC in pill form. I don't think anyone can go (legally) get injectable substances without a prescription. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:42 PM) Of course not. I'm all for penalties, but they should not include not getting into the HOF. And cheating from past eras should be examined as well. Maybe make baseball like golf. If you're out and the umpire calls you safe, tell him you were out and go back to the dugout. ARod not in the HOF? That's ridiculous. As I said, he's also facing juiced up pitchers. I'm saying cheating has always been laughed at. What a player could get away with has always been sort of admired. I don't admire anyone taking steroids, but if there were no penalties when this cheating occurred, what can you do about it? Guys with a HOF vote try to use their power to keep guys out of the HOF, when, most likely, guys they do elect, at least a few of them, used, and either weren't caught, or it wasn't obvious. Sammy Sosa won't get in the HOF and he's never tested positive as far as I know. Is that fair? He got bigger. He played 15 years and gained 50 pounds of muscle. It looks very suspicious, but its not impossible to be done without cheating. Dick, one area we really differ is in the severity of cheating. You seem to consider steroids to be no worse than scuffing a ball. I disagree. Steroids to me is far worse. I believe most fans place it at a much worse level. Much like I draw a distinction between speeding 5 over versus 45 over. The Hof is a interesting debate. While it seems unfair to keep some of these guys out, how about some respect for guys that didn't cheat? Imagine Baines on steroids. I believe it is fairly easy to imagine his credentials with steroid induced power. So if those other guys stats are keeping someone like Baines out, is that fair? Or, what about Thomas loosing an MVP to an admitted steroid user? You are right, it is easy to believe that guys with steroid stats are getting screwed, I believe a far more unfair situation are the guys who did not cheat and have reduced stats and no chance for the HoF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 03:03 PM) So you aren't a Tyler Flowers guy. Got anything to back that up? Because that would be news to me. Not to say it isn't true, just that I haven't seen anything about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 02:13 PM) Got anything to back that up? Because that would be news to me. Not to say it isn't true, just that I haven't seen anything about that. August 1, 2006 Alfredo Reyes, LHP (Pirates) - 1st and 2nd Offenses - 100 games Jesus Granado, DH (Philies) - 1st Offense – 50 games Alvaro Diaz, C (Tigers) - 1st Offense – 50 games Juan Casas, LHP (Pirates) - 1st Offense – 50 games Edison Barrios, RHP (Pirates) - 1st Offense – 50 games Kengshill Pujols, RHP (Dodgers) - 1st Offense – 50 games Tyler Flowers, 1B (Braves) – 1st Offense – 50 games The future Braves catcher… … While no one may be unable to unseat Brian McCann, and even after trading away two major league caliber catchers the last couple of years in Max Ramirez and Jarrod Saltalamacchia, the Braves still have plenty of young catching talent beginning with the combination of patience and power in Tyler Flowers. T-Flow is a Moneyball wet dream, and now that he’s fully healthy and his steroid suspension a distant memory, there doesn’t seem like too much that can keep him from becoming a major league caliber hitter. He may eventually find himself as a first baseman or DH-type player, but after being limited to playing those alternate positions last year because of injury, he returned to catching and made decent strides in most facets of being behind the plate. All indications are that he needs more work calling a game, and with such a big body his footwork as he unloads on his throws will always be a constant struggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 17, 2009 -> 04:13 PM) Got anything to back that up? Because that would be news to me. Not to say it isn't true, just that I haven't seen anything about that. Check out the trib today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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