sircaffey Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 03:16 PM) He may contribute a good power bat to the batting order, but all his contributions are negated because of his inability to play a position on the field. I'd rather have an aging player that can still play the field as a DH, even if it means they won't produce as much with their bat. Instead of Thome, I'd rather have a DH similar to Milton Bradley, Ty Wigginton, Adam Dunn, Rich Aurilia, Jerry Hairston Jr., and even Carl Everett, just to name a few. The player batting at DH doesn't have to be a flashy big bopper, what really matters is if they complete the team on the positional depth chart. No it's not. That's why you have a bench. DH is a starting position just like everything else. You don't need a starting CF who can play 1B. You don't need a starting 1B who can play SS. You want to maximize the value out of every starting position. DH is merely an offensive position, thus you want the best offensive player you can get at that position regardless of his defensive ability. If there was not a bench, you would have a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 04:03 PM) Why would you want a player who can play multiple positions as a DH? That ruins the purpose of the DH, because you lose that versatility the second you pencil him in as the DH. I also despise speedy slap hitters because it still takes two hits to score them. I'd much rather have the guy who can drive himself in with one hit than the guy who needs 3 hits to score 1 run. *sighs* You still don't get it. Here's an example scenario: Lets assume the Sox had Ty Wigginton for the 2009 season instead of Thome, and lets assume Thome's no longer with the Sox and that Wigginton can play 1B, 2B, and 3B: Game 101: (normal positions) 1B: Konerko 2B: Getz (assuming Getz won ST battle) 3B: Fields DH: Wigginton Game 102: (Konerko tires) 1B: Wigginton 2B: Getz 3B: Fields DH: Konerko Game 103: (back to normal as game 101) Game 104: (Getz gets a break) 1B: Konerko 2B: Wigginton 3B: Fields DH: Getz Game 105: (Fields gets a break to stay fresh) 1B: Konerko 2B Getz 3B: Wigginton DH: Fields Game 106: (back to normal as game 101) THAT's exactly how the DH spot should be used, with a player that can give other players a day off from the field. I don't know why it seems like no one gets it. Having a player like Thome takes away valuable flexibility. I'd probably rather still have Swisher than Thome, to be honest, only because Swisher can play 1B/RF/LF/and a little CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 04:39 PM) The Designated Hitters for the last 18 American League Champions: 2008: Cliff Floyd, 35, Defensive Ability: Zero 2007: David Ortiz, 31, Defensive Ability: Zero 2006: Marcus Thames, 29, Defensive Ability: Very little 2005: Carl Everett, 34, Defensive Ability: Very little 2004: David Ortiz, 28, Defensive Ability: Zero 2003: Jason Giambi, 32, Defensive Ability: Very little I'm not going to get into every single player, but here's how I think the 5 most recent American League champions' DH players' value are compared to Thome: Thome Thome Thome Thome = David Ortiz (Both useless, neither can play on the field anymore) Thome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREEDY Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 04:02 PM) If you watched Jim hit last year, you would see that he indeed did start working against that shift. And was sometimes successful. Also, you think that "EVERYONE" used substances that are now illegal? Everyone? I don't think there is anything that "EVERYONE" in baseball does, other than basic bodliy functions. There are some that have done these things, and some that haven't. No one knows for sure what % of course. I can safely say that I saw at least three quarters of Thome's ATBATS in '08 and I can only remember one time (against the Indians late) where he tried to beat the shift, out of say maybe 200 ATBATS against it. Yes, I said "I THINK" everyone has used something that is now illegal. Ask Jim Thome if he ever used Ephedra, EPO or Modafinil. All three were as common as creatine in '00 and now illegal in '09. Why don't reporters ask players point blank questions like this? I will say EVERY athlete I KNEW in school used substances that are now illegal. I was in a non contact sport so we mostly used/abused amphetamines but I lived with several football players. One dude I lived with came into college at I would guess roughly 175 to play TE and graduated a 250lb+ lean, mean DE. Never once would anyone call anything steroids... steroids were and still are considered "Buy them from an actual drug dealer, inject yourself in the ass, Arnold Schwarzenegger style, WWF, anabolic steroids". If you are buying it from a gnc, an internet supplement store, or your dline coach, you aren't calling them steroids and these guys honestly do not believe they are taking steroids. Personally, I believe that is how these players were all originally denying steroid use back in '03 when questioned, they really didn't believe they were using "steroids". Sorry, I didn't start this... one guy said that Thome wasn't concerned with making sure his option vested because he is a good guy that didn't use steroids. I'm done on this Edited February 19, 2009 by GREEDY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 05:21 PM) I'm not going to get into every single player, but here's how I think the 5 most recent American League champions' DH players' value are compared to Thome: Thome Thome Thome Thome = David Ortiz (Both useless, neither can play on the field anymore) Thome Something this silly could have only been said to bait people. I am rather depressed in myself actually... You do not know the purpose behind the dh i take it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Why not have a speedy slap hitter as a DH? That's exactly what this team needs, someone that can slap the ball through the infield gaps for a base hit. The DH position should be utilized similar to how the Los Angeles Angels used it last year with their crowded outfield. I'd also much rather have a player that can actually still play on the field as a DH instead of a guy who gets sore playing 1B in interleague games like Thome does. I think a player like Ty Wigginton, a player that can play multiple positions, would be a perfect DH player. Because that's completely idiotic. The DH position was created for older players to continue in their careers. LAA didn't use the DH spot like you mentioned as Vlad, Anderson, Hunter, and Matthews are not speedy slap hitters. They had to rotate those guys because they put themselves in that position with that dumbass contract they gave Matthews Jr, and then signing Hunter to a huge deal. If Ty Wiggington is capable of playing so many positions? Why in the world would you waste him at the DH spot? The DH is for players who can NOT play more than 1 position in the field. You've managed to contradict yourself twice in the same post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) I'm not going to get into every single player, but here's how I think the 5 most recent American League champions' DH players' value are compared to Thome: Thome < Cliff Floyd (Cliff Floyd can still play a little LF while Thome can't even play 1B) Thome < Marcus Thames (Marcus Thames can still play a few games in the corner outfield) Thome < Carl Everett (In 2005, Everett was able to play in the outfield despite poor defense, but that's still more useful than Thome) Thome = David Ortiz (Both useless, neither can play on the field anymore) Thome < Jason Giambi (Jason Giambi still has value because he can still play 1B) So bad defense > No defense. Holy crap that is idiotic. THIS IS NOT LITTLE LEAGUE WHERE EVERYONE HAS TO GET TO PLAY THE FIELD. Don, was Frank Thomas "worthless" in 2000? Edited February 19, 2009 by santo=dorf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Someone ask Theo Epstein, Bill James, Terry Francona and several million Red Sox fans about David Ortiz's "worth". 2 rings, a .944 career postseason OPS and an ALCS MVP award sort of speak for themselves. I can't believe someone would have the audacity to argue that Carl Everett is a more valuable baseball player than Jim Thome, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas or David Ortiz because he is capable of playing absolutely atrocious defense at a non-premium defensive position and they can not (though they likely could in a pinch). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Screw the last 18 AL Champs, here's going back to the DH's inception: 1989: Dave Parker, 38 1988: Don Baylor, 39 1987: Roy Smalley, 34 1986: Don Baylor, 37 1985: Hal McRae, 39 1984: Darrell Evans, 37 1983: Ken Singleton, 36 1982: Roy Howell, 28 1981: Oscar Gamble, 31 1980: Hal McRae, 34 1979: Lee May, 36 1978: Cliff Johnson, 30 SLOW! 1977: Carlos May, 29 SLOW! 1976: Carlos May, 28 SLOW! 1975: Cecil Cooper, 25 SLOW! 1974: Jesus ALou, 32 1973: Deron Johnson, 34 There is a grand total of 11 stolen bases in there and absolutely NO versatility. This philosophy of using the DH as a means to get your team full of 5 tool superstars ample rest or plugging a versatile slappy bantam speedster in there will revolutionize the game if it ever takes hold (the day Dusty Baker guns down Bill James) because since 1973 not a single team has used it for that purpose and won the AL pennant. I guess until that day the Thome's and Thomas' of the world can keep playing and not have to retire at age 33. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (qwerty @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 05:29 PM) Something this silly could have only been said to bait people. I am rather depressed in myself actually... You do not know the purpose behind the dh i take it? I know the purpose behind the DH, I just don't agree with the way it's implemented. If a player is too old to play the field, then they should just go ahead and retire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 05:29 PM) Because that's completely idiotic. The DH position was created for older players to continue in their careers. LAA didn't use the DH spot like you mentioned as Vlad, Anderson, Hunter, and Matthews are not speedy slap hitters. They had to rotate those guys because they put themselves in that position with that dumbass contract they gave Matthews Jr, and then signing Hunter to a huge deal. If Ty Wiggington is capable of playing so many positions? Why in the world would you waste him at the DH spot? The DH is for players who can NOT play more than 1 position in the field. You've managed to contradict yourself twice in the same post. How did I contradict myself??? Nowhere did I contradict myself. As for last year's Angels outfield, you nailed it right on the head, that was the word: ROTATION. I believe that the DH should be utilized as a rotating position for fielders. And again: having a player on the roster who cannot play on the field and can only play as DH is completely wasteful of a spot on the 25-man roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 07:08 PM) I know the purpose behind the DH, I just don't agree with the way it's implemented. If a player is too old to play the field, then they should just go ahead and retire. You have a fundamental problem with the DH, then. You would be a terrible, terrible manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 07:12 PM) How did I contradict myself??? Nowhere did I contradict myself. As for last year's Angels outfield, you nailed it right on the head, that was the word: ROTATION. I believe that the DH should be utilized as a rotating position for fielders. And again: having a player on the roster who cannot play on the field and can only play as DH is completely wasteful of a spot on the 25-man roster. So, knowing that you're going against decades of baseball knowledge makes you think you're correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 05:03 PM) THAT's exactly how the DH spot should be used, with a player that can give other players a day off from the field. I don't know why it seems like no one gets it. Having a player like Thome takes away valuable flexibility. I'd probably rather still have Swisher than Thome, to be honest, only because Swisher can play 1B/RF/LF/and a little CF. Wilson Betemit, and those 4 other guys that don't start everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 06:03 PM) Screw the last 18 AL Champs, here's going back to the DH's inception: 1989: Dave Parker, 38 1988: Don Baylor, 39 1987: Roy Smalley, 34 1986: Don Baylor, 37 1985: Hal McRae, 39 1984: Darrell Evans, 37 1983: Ken Singleton, 36 1982: Roy Howell, 28 1981: Oscar Gamble, 31 1980: Hal McRae, 34 1979: Lee May, 36 1978: Cliff Johnson, 30 SLOW! 1977: Carlos May, 29 SLOW! 1976: Carlos May, 28 SLOW! 1975: Cecil Cooper, 25 SLOW! 1974: Jesus ALou, 32 1973: Deron Johnson, 34 There is a grand total of 11 stolen bases in there and absolutely NO versatility. This philosophy of using the DH as a means to get your team full of 5 tool superstars ample rest or plugging a versatile slappy bantam speedster in there will revolutionize the game if it ever takes hold (the day Dusty Baker guns down Bill James) because since 1973 not a single team has used it for that purpose and won the AL pennant. I guess until that day the Thome's and Thomas' of the world can keep playing and not have to retire at age 33. Well, just to point out the black swan here... Roy Smalley actually played quite a few positions. I fully agree with your point, BTW. Just thought that one exception was interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 07:42 PM) Well, just to point out the black swan here... Roy Smalley actually played quite a few positions. I fully agree with your point, BTW. Just thought that one exception was interesting. Yes but not in 1987 when the Twins won the AL pennant. He played 80% of his games at DH and only played 3B/SS on very rare occasions. He was an infielder that could no longer play the field adequately so he spent the final 2 years of his career ('86/'87) primarily at DH (81% of his games). Kind of like Carl Everett who played all 3 outfield positions throughout his career but for his final 2.5 seasons he was relegated to DH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 05:21 PM) I'm not going to get into every single player, but here's how I think the 5 most recent American League champions' DH players' value are compared to Thome: Thome Thome Thome Thome = David Ortiz (Both useless, neither can play on the field anymore) Thome I am really left speechless by this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 05:21 PM) I'm not going to get into every single player, but here's how I think the 5 most recent American League champions' DH players' value are compared to Thome: Thome Thome Thome Thome = David Ortiz (Both useless, neither can play on the field anymore) Thome This is one of the most worthless posts I have read on here in quite some time (outside of the filibuster.) I know it's your opinion and you're entitled... but ouch, you (IMO) have not a clue if you really think this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 06:42 PM) This is one of the most worthless posts I have read on here in quite some time (outside of the filibuster.) Thanks for thinking of us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 08:52 PM) Thanks for thinking of us! Hell, I'm thinking of me more then anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 08:42 PM) This is one of the most worthless posts I have read on here in quite some time (outside of the filibuster.) I know it's your opinion and you're entitled... but ouch, you (IMO) have not a clue if you really think this. Lol, I'm sorry, but I'll be honest, it takes more than just monster home run jacks to impress me. I like baseball players that can contribute defensively on the field as well as offensively. It's funny, but I also don't like how the NL has pitchers batting, so I'm at a big personal impasse between how the NL has pitchers batting and how most AL teams utilize slow defensive liabilites as DH's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 11:05 PM) Lol, I'm sorry, but I'll be honest, it takes more than just monster home run jacks to impress me. I like baseball players that can contribute defensively on the field as well as offensively. It's funny, but I also don't like how the NL has pitchers batting, so I'm at a big personal impasse between how the NL has pitchers batting and how most AL teams utilize slow defensive liabilites as DH's. How can a DH be a defensive liability? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDon48 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (YASNY @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 11:11 PM) How can a DH be a defensive liability? Lol, how come I gotta clarify everything I say? If a player wasn't a defensive liability on the field, like Thome was when he tried playing 1st base in interleague games, then they wouldn't be relegated to only being used as a DH, now would they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 11:38 PM) Lol, how come I gotta clarify everything I say? If a player wasn't a defensive liability on the field, like Thome was when he tried playing 1st base in interleague games, then they wouldn't be relegated to only being used as a DH, now would they? I would guess that you are having to clarify everything you say, because most in here disagree with what you are saying and your reasoning behind it. Therefore, they want to make sure they understand you correctly. Personally, I vehemently disagree with you. Guys that hit 30 dingers and drive in 90 runs aren't real easy to find, whereas utility type players are a lot more prevelent. As valuable as Juan Uribe was to the Sox last year, and he was, there is no way that I'd trade Thome for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 QUOTE (GREEDY @ Feb 19, 2009 -> 03:55 PM) Not sure what steroids have to do with my speculation that Thome would have taken a few weeks off in '08 if it hadn't been for his option... but I'll bite Just because Jim is a tad on the round side, doesn't mean he didn't use PEDs. I don't like how certain big guys get a pass just because they aren't ripped. Nice guys take shortcuts too. I don't believe Jeter, I think EVERYONE used substances that are now illegal. And I think they are using stuff now that will be illegal in the future. I really don't want to turn this into a juice discussion but I have read articles by two different sports writers that have hall votes stating that they won't vote for McGwire specifically because he has admitted to using Andro.... which amazingly was available over the counter at f***ING WALMART during the years he stated he used it. Despite the constant talk about PEDs in the media I can't believe how ignorant most when it comes to the subject, from message board posters to people with hall of fame votes. Also, not sure what the shift has to do with my prediction, but again, you got me NO PLAYER that faces the shift and refuses to at least attempt at changing his approach to take advantage are not "pure class" in my book, at least from a baseball standpoint. I'll admit it appears I am wrong on this one, as none of the lefty sluggers that managers shift against appear to try and combat it. While I was a D1 athlete (I didn't play a real sport, I was trying to be the best at exercising) I wasn't a baseball player, so I would buy a decent argument that proves that "messing with your swing" is a big mistake; but I see guys try and go "the other way" all the time, or an announcer will say "there is a big gap in RF"... wouldn't that involve changing an approach? Does a bunt attempt mess with your swing? Hope that made sense... couldn't really convey it well. Players play to their strengths. with his swing if he tried to "go the other way he would just hit lazy fly balls to the outfield." I guess players like Ted Williams have no class as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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