santo=dorf Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Please Kap, they're murdered babies, not embryos. Why should we murder one embryo, I mean, baby to save millions of lives? Gosh that's just so hateful and spits in the face of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (BearSox @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 10:17 PM) This only promotes it, and it is sickening to think that the government is funding this crap. Promotes what? Doing something with the existing embryos besides tossing them in the trash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (kapkomet @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 07:13 PM) Question: how many embryos just "die" because of in vitro? I don't know what those numbers are, but as I said, the only change in today's move is changing the funding. So what did it really change? Nothing. Each year, hundreds of thousands of poor-quality embryos are regularly discarded during the course of IVF, and these could provide an ethically acceptable source of stem cells for research. Link, US News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 09:19 PM) Please Kap, they're murdered babies, not embryos. Why should we murder one embryo, I mean, baby to save millions of lives? Gosh that's just so hateful and spits in the face of life. Oh yeah, because the government is now throwing in funds, scientists will NOW solve the mystery of stem cells and come up with all of these cures... Also, answer me this, is an "embryo" a human or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 09:25 PM) Link, US News how exactly is in vitro ethic? I think it's pretty sick as well. We saw what type of crimes against nature go on with in vitro, key example being that nut case in Cali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (BearSox @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 09:28 PM) how exactly is in vitro ethic? Maybe it'll help cure the gay. You'd love that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (BearSox @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 09:27 PM) Oh yeah, because the government is now throwing in funds, scientists will NOW solve the mystery of stem cells and come up with all of these cures... Also, answer me this, is an "embryo" a human or not? Let's see. As I was saying: it was happening, whether or not you liked it. Now, there's public money essentially replacing private money. So from an ethical standpoint, IMO, nothing's changed. Most of the ultra right wing people (which obviously you are - not labeling, it's just obvious) are against this on the same grounds you are. Honestly, I personally don't care for in vitro, but it happens. If a positive as a result of this practice is we could come up with some medical breakthroughs, then I'm for it, no matter where the money comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 09:25 PM) Link, US News Thanks. That's really the premise of why this doesn't bother me. If those lead to breakthroughs, I completely understand it. I didn't say "support", I said "understand". This is one of those issues that is beyond my pay grade. There honestly is not a "right" answer to this one, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Oh yeah, because the government is now throwing in funds, scientists will NOW solve the mystery of stem cells and come up with all of these cures... Also, answer me this, is an "embryo" a human or not? No, it's is not a human. Is sperm a human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 10:00 PM) No, it's is not a human. Is sperm a human? Does sperm have the potential to grow into a human being on it's own? Explain to me how an embryo is not human. Is an embryo not biologically a human being? When you were an embryo a long time ago, you contained DNA. Odds are that your DNA is the same back then as it is now. Now how does an embryo that is going through a stage of life that contains human DNA, is biologically human, not a human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeNukeEm Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Well, no surprise Obama has little regard for human life. What a load of crock this is. We have some other alternatives for stem cell research, but of course we have to allow these "scientists" who want only the best for man kind to use murdered babies for their research. What a huge load of s***. Anyone who buys this needs to stop drinking the koolaid. This is a disgusting and vile move by Obama, and he using this false hope of saying this will drastically help in the development of making cures for all these diseases more imminent as cover for his sickness. Perhaps one day stem cells will yield results, but you don't have to use dead babies to do so. This is just another way of getting garbage organizations like planned parenthood more money, and making these "good hearted" scientists even richer. How long until Obama allows 3rd term abortions? Probably soon, and he can use the excuse that more developed embryos are better for stem cell research. I agree. Science just bends ethics to further it's own agenda. They'll forbid certain practices while hypcritically praising something that has nearly identical consequences. Science doesn't really care about making people's lives better, they just want to take away and abuse as much of our societal moral code as they can in order to gain power. I'm so sick of science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 09:54 PM) Maybe it'll help cure the gay. You'd love that. If you're gay, you're gay. However, that doesn't mean you should act on it. Some people claim they were born evil and couldn't help but kill people. Now, because you have the urge to kill people, does that mean you should you do it? Same sex intercourse goes against nature. If man or woman were meant to mate with other of their sex, then they would have been born with matching parts. I believe it's unnatural, and promoting it as a completely okay thing to act on is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 10:58 PM) I agree. Science just bends ethics to further it's own agenda. They'll forbid certain practices while hypcritically praising something that has nearly identical consequences. Science doesn't really care about making people's lives better, they just want to take away and abuse as much of our societal moral code as they can in order to gain power. I'm so sick of science. SCIENTISTS bend to their own agenda, but SCIENCE doesn't. Yes, we get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (BearSox @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 09:27 PM) Oh yeah, because the government is now throwing in funds, scientists will NOW solve the mystery of stem cells and come up with all of these cures... Hundreds of millions of dollars are a good way to kick-start scientific research. QUOTE (BearSox @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 09:28 PM) how exactly is in vitro ethic? I think it's pretty sick as well. We saw what type of crimes against nature go on with in vitro, key example being that nut case in Cali. Those people who can't get pregnant naturally can just go to hell! I agree. Science just bends ethics to further it's own agenda. They'll forbid certain practices while hypcritically praising something that has nearly identical consequences. Science doesn't really care about making people's lives better, they just want to take away and abuse as much of our societal moral code as they can in order to gain power. I'm so sick of science. I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. Edited March 10, 2009 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 08:05 AM) I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. It is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I would just like to point out that the federal government isn't just going to give this money to any lab or researcher. The researcher will (in his/her grants) have to demonstrate to the grant reviewers that what they are doing and the good that will come from it outweighs any potential ethical issues. Also, these grants are being peer-reviewed so they're being reviewed by well respected and accomplished scientists. Very few labs will actually get to do this type of research--and the ones that do will be the labs that demonstrate that their potential benefit and contribution to the field far outweighs any ethical problems. NIH, NIMH and NSF have safeguards to make sure that deserving labs and researchers get this money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (BearSox @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 10:57 PM) Does sperm have the potential to grow into a human being on it's own? Explain to me how an embryo is not human. Is an embryo not biologically a human being? When you were an embryo a long time ago, you contained DNA. Odds are that your DNA is the same back then as it is now. Now how does an embryo that is going through a stage of life that contains human DNA, is biologically human, not a human? Cover your little ears. I think you should go get a smasmortion at the smasmortion clinic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (BearSox @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 11:01 PM) If you're gay, you're gay. However, that doesn't mean you should act on it. Some people claim they were born evil and couldn't help but kill people. Now, because you have the urge to kill people, does that mean you should you do it? Same sex intercourse goes against nature. If man or woman were meant to mate with other of their sex, then they would have been born with matching parts. I believe it's unnatural, and promoting it as a completely okay thing to act on is wrong. Did you just compare being gay to being evil and wanting to kill people? There is a church in Kansas that you would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 09:59 AM) Did you just compare being gay to being evil and wanting to kill people? There is a church in Kansas that you would like. I was going to swing at that fastball last night but figured someone else would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 09:02 AM) I was going to swing at that fastball last night but figured someone else would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyons Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Imho, those who try to turn the stem cell debate into an IVF debate and ultimately a abortion debate clearly miss the point and can't be reasoned with. These procedures are extremely and radically different. I happen to believe that as a matter of both science and morality, abortion is designed and intended to stop a beating heart. Anyone who has the slightest comprehension of how IVF works knows that it does not. As for stem cell research, by the time an embryo has become a potential test subject, its chances for "life" are already all but over. In a certain sense, "experimenting" on them is similar to giving experimental treatments to the terminally ill, although the embryos obviously have no choice in the matter. It is a statistical fact (and a sad one) that some embryos "created" during the IVF process will not survive all the way to birth, but the procedure itself does not compel their elimination. It is an equally sad and accepted fact that some airline passengers will not survive their airline flights this year. Some of them may be unborn babies too. If infertility doctors are potential abortionists, then so are airline pilots; the only difference is degree. Its not a perfect analogy, but in both instances, there is no intent to "kill" anyone, yet we tolerate and accept the virtual certain death of a few, in exchange for a great benefit to many. Personally, I could never be a party to abortion (I'm a guy), but I have two absolutely beautiful children through the miracle of IVF, one of whom survived long, long, odds after being "frozen" and then "thawed." As I said earlier, it was important to my wife and I to give all of our embryos a chance at life, and I couldn't be happier that we did. If anyone wants to judge the "morality" or "ethics" of the many couples that undergo this procedure, that's fine; I guess that's easy from a distance, but I'm told judging is sinful too. This is not a simple issue, and as a parent of IVF children and a son of a mother with Parkinson's, it tends to get me a little worked up. No disrespect to those who disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Bearsox brings the funnies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Great post Jurny, and congrats to you and your wife on your good fortune with the process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 09:39 AM) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 10:05 AM) Great post Jurny, and congrats to you and your wife on your good fortune with the process! QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 10:13 AM) "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing" There's some great examples here: http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe%27s_Law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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