Is Beckham the new 2B?

[dmbjeff]

Gordon Beckham is at least 10X more equipped to start at 2B in the Major Leagues than Aaron Poreda is to pitch out of the rotation in the Major Leagues.

 

As of right now I'd say Beckham won't make the team, but if he keeps hitting like this, it is going to be very hard to keep him off it. The Sox are not the Rays and they are not afraid to start the clock on someone they believe is ready. When have Ozzie or Kenny ever put arb years ahead of the product on the field? Aside from the Erstad-Anderson "competition" in '07 and the Sox taking Massett over Wassermann last year, Kenny and Ozzie have always taken the best players in ST. That's how Widger, Logan, Ozuna, Gload, Anderson (last year), Quentin, Alexei Ramirez, etc. all made the team in the past.

 

Gordon Beckham and Josh Kroeger are both definitely in the mix right now despite the Sox going into ST without them in their 2009 plans.

 

I agree...I am estatic about Beckham's potential. I think he has the chance to be top 5 at either SS or 2B within a few years. Thus I see this thread and get excited, cause he is most likely ready. The reasons for holding him back are all good and well(more seasoning, arb clock,etc) but if going to camp with your best 25 is the goal, Beckham is certainly in that group.

[elrockinMT]

Is James Gordon Beckham the new Sox 2B despite playing in the low minors only? Is Guillen considering starting him? Has he play 2B before?

 

Now, it looks like the Sox wants to give the 2B position to Gordon.

 

This is incredible. I learn something new with MLB every year.

 

From the way he had performed this ST maybe just maybe he is or soon will be

[DaTank]

Beckham won't break out of spring training with the major league team. Getz or Nix will be our everyday 2b, at least to start the season. If Beckham tears it up down in the minors and Getz or Nix don't make much of an impact, we could very well see Beckham this year.

 

If anything, you will see him for sure in 2010. My 2010 White Sox look like this (in no particular batting order):

 

C- AJ

1B- Konerko

2B- Beckham

SS- Ramirez

3B- Fields

LF- Viciedo

CF- ??? Alot will depend on how Anderson or Owens does this year.

RF- Quentin

DH- ??? Re-sign Thome for cheap? Other free agent options include Vlad Guerrero & Bobby Abreu

 

I personally see Konerko and Brandon Allen manning 1B/DH next year.

[DaTank]

Can somebody please explain the whole arbitration clock thing?

[flavum]

Can somebody please explain the whole arbitration clock thing?

 

Players are arbitration eligible after three years of service time. If they hold off on bringing up a player until later in the season, they essentially will have him for four years before he becomes arb eligible.

[DaTank]

Players are arbitration eligible after three years of service time. If they hold off on bringing up a player until later in the season, they essentially will have him for four years before he becomes arb eligible.

 

Does it just have to be after the first game of the season or is there a certain time period?

[Kalapse]

Players are arbitration eligible after three years of service time. If they hold off on bringing up a player until later in the season, they essentially will have him for four years before he becomes arb eligible.

And you really only need to send a player down for about 2 weeks to keep him from earning a full year of service for a given season. If a player spends 172 days on the 25 man roster he earns 1.000 years of service (DL and rehab time counts towards service time). If he spends 171 days on the 25 man roster he earns 0.171 years of service. You need a full 3.000 for arb eligibility (2.000 if you're a Super Two but that's complicated). Once a player reaches 6.000 years of service he becomes a free agent at year's end.

 

The perfect example of intentionally suppressing a player's service time is the Evan Longoria situation from last year. For the purposes of this example lets just forget that he signed that 6 year deal that includes 2 option years. He was obviously major league ready out of spring training but the Rays sent him down for the first 2 weeks of the season anyway and thus he was only able to rack up 0.170 years of service last season effectively buying the Rays an extra year of Evan Longoria since by the end of 2013 instead of having 6.000 years of service he'll only have 5.170 and will have to wait another season to reach 6.000 and become free agent eligible.

[Balta1701]

Does it just have to be after the first game of the season or is there a certain time period?

There is a certain time period. You need to be up for a large enough fraction of the year for it to count. The date IIRC is usually sometime around June 1.

 

Re: Becks starting this season at 2b: am I the only one who noticed that he was hitting .231 coming in to today? Yes, he had a day today, but come on.

[Cali]

Why not?

 

Why can't we get the young phenom to break into the bigs with little minor league experience? If he hits better than the competition why shouldnt he get a shot?

[flavum]

There is a certain time period. You need to be up for a large enough fraction of the year for it to count. The date IIRC is usually sometime around June 1.

 

Re: Becks starting this season at 2b: am I the only one who noticed that he was hitting .231 coming in to today? Yes, he had a day today, but come on.

 

Yes, but he's looking a lot better than the average. The ball jumps off his bat. Plus he's just a very confident player. The major league game will not be too fast for him.

[bighurt4life]

They wouldnt do it if for no other reason dont want to start the arbitration clock early. If anything it would be similar to Longoria on the Rays.

 

exactamundo

[daa84]

There is a certain time period. You need to be up for a large enough fraction of the year for it to count. The date IIRC is usually sometime around June 1.

 

Re: Becks starting this season at 2b: am I the only one who noticed that he was hitting .231 coming in to today? Yes, he had a day today, but come on.

that also doesn't take into account his exhibition game he had the other where he went 2-5 with a walk...

[Kalapse]

Yes, but he's looking a lot better than the average. The ball jumps off his bat. Plus he's just a very confident player. The major league game will not be too fast for him.

He's also yet to strikeout. Of players with at least 14 AB this spring only he and Quentin have yet to K.

[Kalapse]

that also doesn't take into account his exhibition game he had the other where he went 2-5 with a walk...

8-23, 4 2B, 2 HR, 5 R, 4 RBI, 2 BB, 0 SO, 1 SB, 0 CS, .348/.400/.783/1.183 overall

[scenario]

He's also yet to strikeout. Of players with at least 14 AB this spring only he and Quentin have yet to K.

 

I'm also impressed that Josh Fields has only struck out twice... and had zero before today.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

And you really only need to send a player down for about 2 weeks to keep him from earning a full year of service for a given season. If a player spends 172 days on the 25 man roster he earns 1.000 years of service (DL and rehab time counts towards service time). If he spends 171 days on the 25 man roster he earns 0.171 years of service. You need a full 3.000 for arb eligibility (2.000 if you're a Super Two but that's complicated). Once a player reaches 6.000 years of service he becomes a free agent at year's end.

 

The perfect example of intentionally suppressing a player's service time is the Evan Longoria situation from last year. For the purposes of this example lets just forget that he signed that 6 year deal that includes 2 option years. He was obviously major league ready out of spring training but the Rays sent him down for the first 2 weeks of the season anyway and thus he was only able to rack up 0.170 years of service last season effectively buying the Rays an extra year of Evan Longoria since by the end of 2013 instead of having 6.000 years of service he'll only have 5.170 and will have to wait another season to reach 6.000 and become free agent eligible.

The Twins also tried that s*** with Liriano last year, sticking with Livan Hernandez instead of calling Francisco up when there was no doubt he was ready and better than anyone else there. Liriano either did file a complaint or thought seriously about filing a complaint with the MLBPA.

 

Anyway, the Sox aren't known for pulling that kind of crap. IIRC when both Anderson and Sweeney were highly regarded prospects, the Sox added them to the roster much earlier than they had to. Didn't both players first come up as injury replacements prior to the September roster expansions? The Sox could have easily made a small trade for a AAAA player or called up a AAAA player to use as a sub temporarily instead of getting them service time, but they went the prospect route instead.

 

The Sox as a whole under JR don't cut a lot of corners. They like to play things pretty much by the book, i.e. no MLB contracts or record-breaking signing bonuses to draft picks, etc. Borchard and Viciedo are the recent exceptions as Alexei was at least considered ready to play as a UT guy. Also this year with OC was the first time I can remember them really taking a chance through the arbitration process looking for draft picks. Generally if there's any chance a player will accept, and if the Sox don't want that player to accept, they don't offer arb. I'm sure there are other examples too, but overall the Sox would be one of the last teams I'd ever expect to end up in hot water over holding a player back to gain another arb year. Agents and the MLBPA don't like that s***, and the players definitely know what is going on.

[Cubano]

A friend of mine who happens to be a baseball agent wrote this to me long time ago. I have kept it handy. I quote:

 

 

"salary arbitration ... How does this work?

 

Players who have at least three years of major league service time but less than the six years of service time needed for free agency are eligible for arbitration. (The top 17% of players with less than 3 yrs of service time are also eligible.)

 

In arbitration, the team and the player both submit a proposed salary, and then, if they can't reach agreement, a hearing is conducted before an arbitration panel (3 arbitrators). The player's agent argues for the player, and the team argues for the team, and then, a day or two later, the arbitrators decide which salary the player will earn. The arbitrators must pick between the two salaries submitted; they can't just make up a salary.

 

These days, the vast majority of arbitration cases are settled before a hearing, usually for a salary somewhere between the player's number and the team's number. Last year, out of about 50-100 possible arbitration cases, only about a dozen (or less) actually went all the way to a hearing.

 

> How a MLB contract is negociated?

 

For players already in the minors, or players with less than three years of ML service time, there's not much negotiation. Players are paid the minimum salary, or close to the minimum, as outlined in the Basic Agreement.

 

For players between three years and six years, the arbitration process means there's some negotiation room, but it's still limited to between the player and one team, so it's not a true open-market negotiation. The same applies to draft picks, since they can only negotiate with the drafting team.

 

For free agents, whether major league or non-drafted or players outside the draft (outside U.S. and Canada), negotiating an ML contract is similar to any other negotiation: Teams make contact with the players they're interested in, make offers, and then the teams and players submit counter-offers, etc., until an agreement is reached. It's not too much different than buying/selling a car or house, etc.

 

> What are the major differences and benefits between a major

> league contract and a minor league contract?

 

The differences are substantial. The minimum salary in the majors is around $400,000 per year while the minimum salary in the minors is around $900 per month (during the season only).

 

Also, all players under ML contract (40-man roster) automatically attend ML spring training, while minor leaguers must be "invited" to attend.

 

Players in the majors also earn credit toward the ML pension plan and have great health care plans, etc., while minor leaguers have no pension and only a limited health care plan.

 

The 17% is just a strict mathematical calculation. MLB makes a list of all the players in MLB who have between 1 day of service time and 3 years of service time, and then the top 17% of that list -- that is, the 17% of that group who have the most ML service time -- become eligible for arbitration. They're called "Super Twos" because they only have 2-plus years of service time in the majors instead of the three years that most players need before becoming eligible for arbitration. (The 17% doesn't have anything to do with statistics, performance, etc.; it's completely based on service time in the majors.)"

Edited March 9, 2009 by Cubano

[Dick Allen]

The Twins also tried that s*** with Liriano last year, sticking with Livan Hernandez instead of calling Francisco up when there was no doubt he was ready and better than anyone else there. Liriano either did file a complaint or thought seriously about filing a complaint with the MLBPA.

 

Anyway, the Sox aren't known for pulling that kind of crap. IIRC when both Anderson and Sweeney were highly regarded prospects, the Sox added them to the roster much earlier than they had to. Didn't both players first come up as injury replacements prior to the September roster expansions? The Sox could have easily made a small trade for a AAAA player or called up a AAAA player to use as a sub temporarily instead of getting them service time, but they went the prospect route instead.

 

The Sox as a whole under JR don't cut a lot of corners. They like to play things pretty much by the book, i.e. no MLB contracts or record-breaking signing bonuses to draft picks, etc. Borchard and Viciedo are the recent exceptions as Alexei was at least considered ready to play as a UT guy. Also this year with OC was the first time I can remember them really taking a chance through the arbitration process looking for draft picks. Generally if there's any chance a player will accept, and if the Sox don't want that player to accept, they don't offer arb. I'm sure there are other examples too, but overall the Sox would be one of the last teams I'd ever expect to end up in hot water over holding a player back to gain another arb year. Agents and the MLBPA don't like that s***, and the players definitely know what is going on.

I agree. Holding guys back because of arb clock considerations is a loser mentality. The White Sox don't do that.

[iamshack]

The Twins also tried that s*** with Liriano last year, sticking with Livan Hernandez instead of calling Francisco up when there was no doubt he was ready and better than anyone else there. Liriano either did file a complaint or thought seriously about filing a complaint with the MLBPA.

 

Yeah, but the Twins did it in the middle of the year, as opposed to the beginning of the year, when they did bring him up with the big league team and he got shellacked.

 

So they did give him his shot at the beginning of the year...but you're right, they held him back pretty late when it was clear he was ready down in AAA.

[GREEDY]

I like the idea of bringing up and "starting" a prospect early.

 

I have no real sabermetric data to back this up but it certaintly seems like it would take some of the pressure off.

 

If Beckham were to struggle, he just gets sent back down and it was managements fault for playing him too early; but if you leave him down their until 2011 and he comes up and can't hack it, then he quickly gets deemed as just another AAAA player. So if you bring a prospect along quickly I can see them getting much more of a second chance.

 

With that being said I really doubt he is on the Opening Day roster.

Edited March 9, 2009 by GREEDY

[JohnCangelosi]

Does anyone remember Frank Thomas' spring training in 1990? He tore the cover off the ball but we sent him down saying "he wasn't ready" and we dont want to "hurt his confidence" etc etc.

 

When he was called up he proved the last few months of the year he was ready from the get go.

 

This is nonsense. If he can hit in ST, he can do it in the bigs and what I like about this kid is the fact that he seems really confident out there....we'll see how the next 3 weeks go, it will be interesting...

[caulfield12]

Cubano, obviously I read your response as taking a shot at the White Sox for being hypocrites about Viciedo.

 

Well, they've invested MORE money into Viciedo for LESS years, so why wouldn't they start him if he was truly ready? You don't think Ozzie and KW want to win badly enough, or that they'd prefer to go through another 2007 again, especially when that will have real consequences for the season ticket base of renewals in 2010? Not on your life, they're going to make the correct decision after assessing all the factors with both Viciedo and Beckham.

 

Viciedo, according to most (not just Peter Bjarkman) actually regressed or went backwards over the last couple of years in Cuba...he was overweight by 20-30 pounds at his DR workout...he missed the mandatory weight training session last Monday, he just has some more maturing to do. He's just turning 20 this month. Beckham, on the other hand, has been climbing since the day he was drafted...probably moreso than any player from last year's draft. He played well after he signed, then even better in the Arizona Fall League. Viciedo was being left off the national team, Olympic team, WBC team, etc.

 

Of course, the Cubans knew about his potential ability TOO, moreso than anyone in the US, but they also are in the business of winning now, not next season.

 

All that said, I don't think that Beckham will make this team, although he's certainly shown the ability to hit well and confidently (so far) out of the leadoff spot, albeit in ST, but it's certainly a positive sign. He has flinched or wilted under the pressure. And Jerry Owens has shown no ability to steal bases, so there has to be some consideration to giving Beckham that spot because our biggest need right now is at leadoff.

 

I can't wait until they move Ramirez to CF for Beckham, that will be when it really starts to fly around here!!!! I know you are waiting for that moment Cubano, but I don't think it will come if Ramirez is close to as good as advertised defensively.

 

Just think if you were Josh Fields coming off his 2007 rookie year and you were told you're going to the minors? Don't you think he had more of a reason to be bitter than Viciedo would, since Viciedo hasn't proved anything at all in regular season big league play? I know all players EXPECT and play like they expect to make the team, but I'm sure Jaime Torres has already alerted him to the reality. If Josh Fields wasn't healthy, was having huge fielding problems and looking like Brian Anderson at the plate and Viciedo was sent down, then I would agree with you. But Fields, Nix and Kroeger have been the three best hitters, at least until Beckham's performance yesterday.

 

The other reason, as noted, was that they 1) wanted to get him more at-bats, they said they might do that from 3B as well, which, of course, would aggravate you if it got in the way of Viciedo's PT, and 2) Lillibridge and Nix are both out for now, and Eider Torres needs to give Ramirez a rest in ST.

[Cubano]

Cubano, obviously I read your response as taking a shot at the White Sox for being hypocrites about Viciedo.

 

Well, they've invested MORE money into Viciedo for LESS years, so why wouldn't they start him if he was truly ready? You don't think Ozzie and KW want to win badly enough, or that they'd prefer to go through another 2007 again, especially when that will have real consequences for the season ticket base of renewals in 2010? Not on your life, they're going to make the correct decision after assessing all the factors with both Viciedo and Beckham.

 

Viciedo, according to most (not just Peter Bjarkman) actually regressed or went backwards over the last couple of years in Cuba...he was overweight by 20-30 pounds at his DR workout...he missed the mandatory weight training session last Monday, he just has some more maturing to do. He's just turning 20 this month. Beckham, on the other hand, has been climbing since the day he was drafted...probably moreso than any player from last year's draft. He played well after he signed, then even better in the Arizona Fall League. Viciedo was being left off the national team, Olympic team, WBC team, etc.

 

Of course, the Cubans knew about his potential ability TOO, moreso than anyone in the US, but they also are in the business of winning now, not next season.

 

All that said, I don't think that Beckham will make this team, although he's certainly shown the ability to hit well and confidently (so far) out of the leadoff spot, albeit in ST, but it's certainly a positive sign. He has flinched or wilted under the pressure. And Jerry Owens has shown no ability to steal bases, so there has to be some consideration to giving Beckham that spot because our biggest need right now is at leadoff.

 

I can't wait until they move Ramirez to CF for Beckham, that will be when it really starts to fly around here!!!! I know you are waiting for that moment Cubano, but I don't think it will come if Ramirez is close to as good as advertised defensively.

 

Just think if you were Josh Fields coming off his 2007 rookie year and you were told you're going to the minors? Don't you think he had more of a reason to be bitter than Viciedo would, since Viciedo hasn't proved anything at all in regular season big league play? I know all players EXPECT and play like they expect to make the team, but I'm sure Jaime Torres has already alerted him to the reality. If Josh Fields wasn't healthy, was having huge fielding problems and looking like Brian Anderson at the plate and Viciedo was sent down, then I would agree with you. But Fields, Nix and Kroeger have been the three best hitters, at least until Beckham's performance yesterday.

 

The other reason, as noted, was that they 1) wanted to get him more at-bats, they said they might do that from 3B as well, which, of course, would aggravate you if it got in the way of Viciedo's PT, and 2) Lillibridge and Nix are both out for now, and Eider Torres needs to give Ramirez a rest in ST.

 

 

I do not read anything from Peter Bjarkman. For him, Cuban players are God while still in the island. Once they defect, they are so so. Is it because he wants to be in bed with the Cuban government so they do not expel him from Cuba? By the way, what happen to the travel Embargo?

 

Viciedo was in the Cuban roster for the WBC # 1 three years ago? Of course, he was there for the training. Viciedo was in the Cuban junior team competing abroad. Then, he defected. Was he going to sit Gourriel or Michel Enriquez who is third in average post 1959 in Cuba both on this WBC roster?

 

Viciedo last season in Cuba was not that bad. Don't MLB second year players fall into hard times too after good first years?

 

Cuba right now has a lot of good players coming up. Baseball is cyclical. In the 90's, there was a void when the government forced many veterans into retirement.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Cubano

[GreatScott82]

Hey Cubano...

Maybe you have something here...

Ozzie on Beckham from whitesox.com

 

PHOENIX -- Looking for a way to neatly sum up the rising Spring Training star that has become the White Sox Gordon Beckham?

 

 

Well, a White Sox fan sitting in Section 112 of Camelback Ranch during the sixth inning of Sunday's victory over the Dodgers might have provided the most accurate and succinct description. The fan's words came after Beckham ripped a double into the left-field corner, the third double of the afternoon for the team's top pick in the 2008 First-Year Player Draft.

 

"This kid is unreal," the unnamed fan said.

 

Pretty much everyone associated with the White Sox would agree. Beckham had the chance to play second base and hit leadoff on Sunday, with Jayson Nix nursing a sore right quad, Brent Lillibridge sidelined by the flu and Chris Getz getting a day off. Beckham will be back at second during a Monday morning "B" game against the Dodgers.

 

Before fans start reading too much into Beckham's multiple starts at the leadoff spot, manager Ozzie Guillen said the main goal is getting five at-bats per game for Beckham by putting him there. Forget about the leadoff possibility, though. Beckham has made enough of an impact that Guillen has begun to envision the rookie in the big league picture, a picture he wasn't near when Spring Training began.

 

It's also a picture that has yet to be fully assembled.

 

"He's had a great Spring Training and he's making it tougher on us to make that decision," said Guillen of Beckham. "He continues to impress everybody. It seems like he belongs in the big leagues.

 

"Right now, we have [25] games left. If he continues to do that, then we have to think about what we're going to do. I'm really, really impressed with him, but in the meanwhile, I think we have more talent behind him that can help us, too."

Hitting coach Greg Walker described Beckham on Sunday morning as a kid he hasn't had to do much with, swing-wise. Beckham is a legitimate No. 1 pick and right where he should be, according to Walker.

 

That locale, in Beckham's mind, had him holding out very little hope of breaking camp with the White Sox as recently as Friday. On Sunday, Beckham certainly wasn't about to declare himself as the team's starting second baseman but transferred some of that on-the-field confidence to his conversation with the media.

 

"Still pretty far out of the realm of reality, I guess," said Beckham, who scored two runs and drove in one. "But you know, I said it [Friday], I'm going to prepare the same way, no matter what. I feel like I've made good strides in the right direction. And if I said I didn't want to make the team, then I would be crazy. I'm trying my hardest and we will see what happens."

 

In Guillen's mind, the best test of Beckham's present success is when he's getting the hits in a game. Beckham's first double came off of Clayton Kershaw, a talented southpaw and sure bet to be part of the Dodgers rotation.

 

"Now, as he gets more at-bats, he's swinging the bat well and he's swinging against the good ones," Guillen said. "You look at the clock and it says 2:30. He hits the ball when it's 1:05, 1:15, too.

 

"To me, that counts. You look at who he's facing and it seems like he's not having a problem against anyone. I hope he makes my job pretty tough at the end of Spring Training."

Edited March 9, 2009 by GreatScott82

[bmags]

This is really exciting!