daa84 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 i'd wait to start beckhams arb clock and then have this as my lineup when they want to start him Getz 2b Beckham SS Quentin LF Thome DH Dye RF Konerko 1b AJ C Ramirez Cf Fields 3b Bench of Betemit, Anderson, Lillibridge (PR and Def. replacement) and Lucy MB, Gavin, Danks, Colon, Contreras Jenks, Linebrink, Thornton, Dotel, Richard, Carrasco, Marquez/Broadway/Russell/Wasserman/Nunez (I am intrigued by nunez, but really like broadway in that mop up, nick masset role. Would like to see Marquez starting, don't think Wasserman has what it takes especially for multiple innings, and russell has been brutal) won't happen though, as the organization seems pretty stubborn at keeping alexei at SS even though its possible he would be a better CF than SS defensively (see BJ upton) and we have a gaping hole in CF right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (daa84 @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 11:12 PM) i'd wait to start beckhams arb clock and then have this as my lineup when they want to start him Getz 2b Beckham SS Quentin LF Thome DH Dye RF Konerko 1b AJ C Ramirez Cf Fields 3b Bench of Betemit, Anderson, Lillibridge (PR and Def. replacement) and Lucy MB, Gavin, Danks, Colon, Contreras Jenks, Linebrink, Thornton, Dotel, Richard, Carrasco, Marquez/Broadway/Russell/Wasserman/Nunez (I am intrigued by nunez, but really like broadway in that mop up, nick masset role. Would like to see Marquez starting, don't think Wasserman has what it takes especially for multiple innings, and russell has been brutal) won't happen though, as the organization seems pretty stubborn at keeping alexei at SS even though its possible he would be a better CF than SS defensively (see BJ upton) and we have a gaping hole in CF right now I like that one too, the only caveat is that I hate that OF defensively. Alexei wasnt that great in his short time in CF, and I honestly think he is a better SS than Becks on really nothing more than short time seeing both. Beckham would see a ton of fastballs in that spot. The one thing I have liked about him so far though is that he seems to recognize breaking balls fairly quickly and can lay off the breaking s*** they will throw him in the lead off spot too. Edited March 10, 2009 by RockRaines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 11:15 PM) I like that one too, the only caveat is that I hate that OF defensively. Alexei wasnt that great in his short time in CF, and I honestly think he is a better SS than Becks on really nothing more than short time seeing both. Beckham would see a ton of fastballs in that spot. The one thing I have liked about him so far though is that he seems to recognize breaking balls fairly quickly and can lay off the breaking s*** they will throw him in the lead off spot too. i agree thats its not our best D...thing is, i'm not really convinced Ramirez will be any better than Beckham at SS (alexei's metrics weren't very good at 2b last year, and usually the shift to SS doesn't improve those)....and CF we just don't know at this point what Ramirez is like out there, which is why i want to see him there this spring. I think Alexei could give what Owens and Wise would in CF, but the only way to find out is to try him there. Obviously Brian in CF would be best, but i'm just not confident in his ability to hit at this level. Truth be told, I'm actually not crazy about rushing Beckham this quickly, but the alternative is Anderson in the lineup, and frankly i think Beckham will be better than Anderson right now in the majors. I really hope Brian proves me wrong, cuz he has enough power and certainly plays D well enough to be a pretty effective player if he can get on base at say a .330 clip Edited March 10, 2009 by daa84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Supposedly Alexei only spent 1 season at SS, the majority of his time in Cuba was spent in CF. At least that's what I seem to remember Cubano saying. There's absolutely no way any of his can know how Alexei will handle SS or whether he's better than Beckham at the position, the sample size is minuscule. I do agree that having Alexei, Beckham and Getz all in the same lineup is probably our best way to go since it puts 3 good hitters (at least they should be) at 3 positions without sacrificing too much on defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) the other problem with my proposed lineup is that Owens, Nix and Wise would all be left off the team, and maybe out of the organization as all are out of options. Now maybe thats not that big of a deal...I know Nix cleared waivers twice last year, but something tells me in this economy relatively young guys might get scooped up. Owens I could care less about. He's awful, I'm 100% sure that we can find someone else to do what he does. Wise...we could manage to lose him i believe, especially if Kroeger is in AAA. Edited March 10, 2009 by daa84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I agree, except I'd rather have the much more dynamic hitter in Ramirez in the 2 hole and put Getz at the bottom of the order instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 02:57 AM) I agree, except I'd rather have the much more dynamic hitter in Ramirez in the 2 hole and put Getz at the bottom of the order instead. Alexei's .317 OBP isn't exactly ideal in the 2 hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatScott82 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Mar 9, 2009 -> 10:36 PM) Pierzynski put up a .307 OBP in the 2 hole last year. That's horrible. And I still don't know what makes Alexei a better "all around" player than Quentin. It seemed like we started winning when Ozzie put AJ in the 2 hole.... A .307 OBP isn't impressive at all, but it was the little things that helped, like getting the man over, taking pitches etc.... I'm sure there are #s to refute those things, but sometimes its more than #s to change a lineups production and outlook. Alexie and Quentin are our best players but i think Alexie has more tools than CQ. Speed, defense, power etc... Quentin is pure offense! Not that he's a bad defender. I guess you can say they are pretty much equally important to our team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 05:50 AM) It seemed like we started winning when Ozzie put AJ in the 2 hole.... A .307 OBP isn't impressive at all, but it was the little things that helped, like getting the man over, taking pitches etc.... I'm sure there are #s to refute those things, but sometimes its more than #s to change a lineups production and outlook. Alexie and Quentin are our best players but i think Alexie has more tools than CQ. Speed, defense, power etc... Quentin is pure offense! Not that he's a bad defender. I guess you can say they are pretty much equally important to our team. Trust me, winning had nothing to do with AJ's talent in the 2-hole, he was just better than what we had at the time which was nothing. AJP was putrid as a #2 hitter last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 06:50 AM) It seemed like we started winning when Ozzie put AJ in the 2 hole.... A .307 OBP isn't impressive at all, but it was the little things that helped, like getting the man over, taking pitches etc.... I'm sure there are #s to refute those things, but sometimes its more than #s to change a lineups production and outlook. Alexie and Quentin are our best players but i think Alexie has more tools than CQ. Speed, defense, power etc... Quentin is pure offense! Not that he's a bad defender. I guess you can say they are pretty much equally important to our team. It's not so much numbers to refute those things so much as the fact that it didn't happen... AJ simply does not take pitches, period. Never will. He just happened to be on fire when he first got put in the 2 hole, but that ended a few weeks later, then we had nobody else that could do it (Cabrera, but he was leading off). AJ is great to have batting 6th, 7th, but not 2nd. Edited March 10, 2009 by lostfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 05:50 AM) It seemed like we started winning when Ozzie put AJ in the 2 hole.... A .307 OBP isn't impressive at all, but it was the little things that helped, like getting the man over, taking pitches etc.... I'm sure there are #s to refute those things, but sometimes its more than #s to change a lineups production and outlook. Alexie and Quentin are our best players but i think Alexie has more tools than CQ. Speed, defense, power etc... Quentin is pure offense! Not that he's a bad defender. I guess you can say they are pretty much equally important to our team. No, I'd say Quentin is much more valuable. Alexei is pretty fast but not blazing fast and he didn't show any propensity for the stolen base and I think Quentin proved to be a very smart and skilled baserunner with average speed. Defensively neither was above average overall but Alexei did show some flashing of the spectacular, both have excellent arms and if Carlos ever makes his way back to his natural position he's supposedly a plus defender. Not sure why you'd mention power, Carlos was one of the best power hitters in the game last year and much more explosive than Alexei. .283 ISO for Carlos and .185 ISO for Alexei, that's a rather large difference. Similar contact hitters with Carlos being an infinitely more disciplined hitter and a year younger than Alexei. Again, I'm not seeing it. Hawk may like to say it but he also never backs it up, perhaps he places greater value on glove flips than myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 06:35 AM) Trust me, winning had nothing to do with AJ's talent in the 2-hole, he was just better than what we had at the time which was nothing. AJP was putrid as a #2 hitter last season. ^^^^^^^ I'd also like to give Lexi a shot at the 2 hole - it may "force" a little more patience on his part and increase his OBP to acceptable levels. He's a very smart and instinctive player who may be able to adjust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 08:41 AM) It's not so much numbers to refute those things so much as the fact that it didn't happen... AJ simply does not take pitches, period. Never will. He just happened to be on fire when he first got put in the 2 hole, but that ended a few weeks later, then we had nobody else that could do it (Cabrera, but he was leading off). AJ is great to have batting 6th, 7th, but not 2nd. I don't think it's coincidence that the Sox started winning on May 15th. Sure AJ was placed in the 2 hole where he immediately floundered but a young man by the name of Alexei Ramirez took over at 2B on that day and proceeded to hit .360/.391/.558/.949 over his next 24 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 07:41 PM) ^^^^^^^ I'd also like to give Lexi a shot at the 2 hole - it may "force" a little more patience on his part and increase his OBP to acceptable levels. He's a very smart and instinctive player who may be able to adjust. Me too. And even though Alexei doesn't have the ideal measures for a #2 hitter, he's great with RISP and he has some pop. So if our leadoff man gets on, I think Alexei and his aggressive nature could work out well. I'm not sure if it would force him to walk more, but perhaps the opportunities with a man who hopefully will get on enough, Gets/Nix, whoever, provides the incentive for Ramirez to focus the way he seems to with men on base. That, and considering his power and ability to net doubles, I'd rather him have hitters like Q/Thome/Kong behind him, rather than him trying to hit these slow pokes in. Now, granted, with Ramirez being so good with RISP, you'd have to wonder if putting him so high up will be giving him less chances. And then, I don't know. I'd just like to see how AR reacts to the #2 hole. But, it likely is not the best place for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 The best case for putting Alexei in the 2 hole is that you're adding another excellent offensive talent to the top of the lineup rather than a poor hitter who may have a little speed. Giving your best hitters more plate appearances over the course of the season is never a bad thing, if he's hitting 2nd there's going to be more than a few close games where he gets an extra PA compared to the bottom of the order where they may not make it back to him. This is definitely a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 03:00 PM) The best case for putting Alexei in the 2 hole is that you're adding another excellent offensive talent to the top of the lineup rather than a poor hitter who may have a little speed. Giving your best hitters more plate appearances over the course of the season is never a bad thing, if he's hitting 2nd there's going to be more than a few close games where he gets an extra PA compared to the bottom of the order where they may not make it back to him. This is definitely a good thing. The negative about it though is Alexi isnt exactly a high OBP guy so he isnt going to be on base as much as you'd ideally like with the big boppers coming up behind him. Also Alexi has the ability to drive in runs, and the 2 hole isnt the most ideal spot for that either. I kinda like Ramirez towards the bottom because in my opinion helps makes the entire lineup dangerous and probably gives him more chances with runners on base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan101 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 03:11 PM) The negative about it though is Alexi isnt exactly a high OBP guy so he isnt going to be on base as much as you'd ideally like with the big boppers coming up behind him. Also Alexi has the ability to drive in runs, and the 2 hole isnt the most ideal spot for that either. I kinda like Ramirez towards the bottom because in my opinion helps makes the entire lineup dangerous and probably gives him more chances with runners on base. We don't have an over abundance of high OBP non-power hitters. If Alexei is the starting SS then Owens, Wise or Anderson is in CF, none of them should be anywhere near the top of a major league lineup. Jayson Nix doesn't belong at the top of a lineup so that leaves Chris Getz who shouldn't kill you up there. There is no one. It's Alexei, Owens, Anderson, Wise, Getz, Nix, Pierzynski or Fields to fill 2 spots. Only 1 of those guys looks like a top of the order hitter and he's a an unspectacular rookie. Alexei is my #2 hitter. And no the Sox aren't going to move Alexei to CF and put 2 rookies at the top of the lineup, it's just not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan-kwman Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 As some of you might know, Mickey Mantle was orginally signed as a shortstop. I think this Beckham could make the move to Centerfield. A-rod moved to 3b instead of moving Jeter. Any thoughts?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Naw, for as difficult a time as we have had, CF's are easier to find that great hitting short stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I forsee our opening day lineup being this: CF: Jerry Ownes 2B: Chris Getz LF: Carlos Quentin DH: Jim Thome 1B: Paul Konerko RF: Jermaine Dye C: AJ Pierznski SS: Alexi Ramirez 3B: Josh Fields Not saying I agree with it, but Ozzie being Ozzie, this is what I see happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (bmags @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 03:25 PM) Naw, for as difficult a time as we have had, CF's are easier to find that great hitting short stops. Except it just so happens our #1 prospect who could be major league ready RIGHT NOW is a shortstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan101 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 09:26 PM) I forsee our opening day lineup being this: CF: Jerry Ownes 2B: Chris Getz LF: Carlos Quentin DH: Jim Thome 1B: Paul Konerko RF: Jermaine Dye C: AJ Pierznski SS: Alexi Ramirez 3B: Josh Fields Not saying I agree with it, but Ozzie being Ozzie, this is what I see happening. I really don't buy that. Frankly, each off season we give our ideal lineups and say, 'oh but ozzie is too stupid to do that because he has a man crush on x, etc.' 'If owens hadn't gotten hurt Quentin would've never played' etc etc. But last year we were all saying how the best place for swish to hit was at the top because of his high OBP, but we all said that ozzie's obsession with speed would never let that happen. He let it happen, and it failed, and he made due with the best he had. I think Getz will be our leadoff hitter, but I don't think it is good for Getz to hear it's his position to lose. For Fields, I think it was better for him to hear this was his shot, don't f*** it up. But for Getz, the competition is healthy and he just needs to worry about his position. I think we've created a caricature of Ozzie that is not realistic. He's not perfect, but more often than not he just strings us along for a while before making the correct (in our opinions) decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 09:28 PM) Except it just so happens our #1 prospect who could be major league ready RIGHT NOW is a shortstop. right, I'm just saying we shouldn't move him to CF, he's more valuable as is. I think Alexei should move a bit north. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 01:16 PM) There is no one. It's Alexei, Owens, Anderson, Wise, Getz, Nix, Pierzynski or Fields to fill 2 spots. Only 1 of those guys looks like a top of the order hitter and he's a an unspectacular rookie. Alexei is my #2 hitter. This is very true. To make another point about my feelings on Lexi's ability to adjust to the 2 hole, I believe there's a relationship between dangerous(ness) and OBP. For instance, before Sosa roided up, he rarely walked, but after he became super-dangerous, pitchers were far more careful about throwing him strikes - he was smart enough to recognize this, adjusted, and started walking 100 times a season. Of course there are guys who swing at everything, no matter what, and those guys eventually don't see too many strikes. It's a fine line, certainly - I think the jury is still out with Alexei on how he could evolve. His baseball intelligence gives me confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (bmags @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 01:31 PM) right, I'm just saying we shouldn't move him to CF, he's more valuable as is. I think Alexei should move a bit north. Wrigley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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