Is Beckham the new 2B?

[Balta1701]

That's just f***ing ignorant.

 

Can Josh Kroeger play CF? Because he's yet to play even an inning out there this spring. It seems to me that the Sox would want to get him some looks out there if he were capable given how great he's looked at the plate.

If Kroeger keeps hitting like this and he can at least be an adequate CF I'm game.

[Kalapse]

If Kroeger keeps hitting like this and he can at least be an adequate CF I'm game.

Agreed. There has to be a reason why this guy hasn't even been given an inning out there. It's not like the other morons are lighting it up. His recent time in the minors has been spent with some legitimate centerfield prospects like Felix Pie and Michael Bourn so I'm not sure his lack of CF playing time in the minors is a great indicator of his defensive prowess. I haven't heard Ozzie or anyone else in the organization say a word about him.

 

From Phil Rogers:

 

White Sox: Josh Kroeger -- A lot of players are going to go through hot streaks during a 38-game spring training, as the Sox are scheduled to play, and Kroeger has recently been the toughest hitter to get out. This is nothing new, really, as he's always been able to hit. The rest of his game has never been considered big-league ready, which is why he'll probably begin 2009 at Triple-A Charlotte and not as an extra outfielder/pinch hitter for Ozzie Guillen.

[bmags]

It makes sense, it's why Paul Konerko and Jim Thome never get criticized, but Jermaine Dye is always s*** on by us.

 

 

edit: I realized maybe I should put GREEN

Edited March 11, 2009 by bmags

[GREEDY]

and he can at least be an adequate CF I'm game.

 

Our current projected starter's defensive breakdown:

 

1B Konerko: Below Average and trending towards bad

 

2B Getz/Nix: Average. obviously this is just speculation but AVG has to be best case scenario.

 

SS: Alisssaaay = Flashy but most likely will be Below Average overall

 

3B: Fields/Betemit = Bad

 

LF: Quentin = Average

 

CF: Wise/Owens/Kroeger = Bad

 

RF: JD = Bad! Believe it Hawk!

 

C: AJ = Bad

 

 

Not an "above average" defender in the bunch, let alone a good one.

 

 

I am not an Anderson fanboy, but I really hope management goes with the best defender at every position up for grabs. This team can't afford another weak defender. Ever since our CF defense cost us the playoffs in '06 I am obsessed with D.... and the '09 WSox defense is going to pretty raw. $10 says we blame a poor season on the pitching, but the main culprit will be the defense.

 

 

 

[bmags]

it appears Nix is better than average.

[Balta1701]

If Nix takes 2b, he'd be excellent by most accounts so far.

 

AJ is bad on throwing. But he keeps the ball in front of him.

[NorthSideSox72]

Our current projected starter's defensive breakdown:

 

1B Konerko: Below Average and trending towards bad

 

2B Getz/Nix: Average. obviously this is just speculation but AVG has to be best case scenario.

 

SS: Alisssaaay = Flashy but most likely will be Below Average overall

 

3B: Fields/Betemit = Bad

 

LF: Quentin = Average

 

CF: Wise/Owens/Kroeger = Bad

 

RF: JD = Bad! Believe it Hawk!

 

C: AJ = Bad

 

 

Not an "above average" defender in the bunch, let alone a good one.

 

 

I am not an Anderson fanboy, but I really hope management goes with the best defender at every position up for grabs. This team can't afford another weak defender. Ever since our CF defense cost us the playoffs in '06 I am obsessed with D.... and the '09 WSox defense is going to pretty raw. $10 says we blame a poor season on the pitching, but the main culprit will be the defense.

Nix is a plus-plus defender by all accounts, not AVERAGE. Alexei was hit and miss at second but still solid average, in his first year in the MLB and at a non-native position, so I'd be surprised if he was below average at SS (where he played in Cuba) for a full season. Fields is not bad, he's just not Crede, he's average out there. You have no idea what Kroeger is out there. And AJ is lousy at throwing out runners but is otherwise a serviceable defensive catcher.

 

Other than that, right on.

 

[Kalapse]

Nix is a plus-plus defender by all accounts, not AVERAGE. Alexei was hit and miss at second but still solid average, in his first year in the MLB and at a non-native position, so I'd be surprised if he was below average at SS (where he played in Cuba) for a full season. Fields is not bad, he's just not Crede, he's average out there. You have no idea what Kroeger is out there. And AJ is lousy at throwing out runners but is otherwise a serviceable defensive catcher.

 

Other than that, right on.

If you read the thread Scenario started I don't think any of this is true.

[GREEDY]

If Nix takes 2b, he'd be excellent by most accounts so far.

 

AJ is bad on throwing. But he keeps the ball in front of him.

 

My gut instinct is due to Nix's route to the bigs is that he isn't anything overly special at 2nd. I did give a guy that I have seen play a whole 10 innings of defense an "average" rating... I feel that is more than fair at this time considering Getz still has to be the favorite to get the position.

 

Very few everyday catcher's defense has effected a game as negatively as AJ's has the past few seasons. By all accounts he calls a good game and yes he appears to make all of the stops... but you have to say overall he is in the lower 1/5th of defensive catchers is MLB which IMHO qualifies him as bad.

 

My main point is this team as currently constructed will force our pitchers to throw at ton more pitches in '09. And when you play 81 at the Cell, you really can't afford to face any more batters than you have to.

[NorthSideSox72]

If you read the thread Scenario started I don't think any of this is true.

Looks true in that thread. BP calls his an at least average defensive SS, played a bunch there, whereas he only played 2B occasionally according to Cubano.

 

The only contradictory evidence I saw in there was Alexei's range rating last season at 2B, which is admitedly a concern.

 

[southsider2k5]

Well I think both Anderson and Owens should go to AAA.

 

I think we'd be better off looking into having Kroeger as our everyday CF and Wise as our 4th outfielder.

 

I just hate Anderson as much as other people hate Owens, if not more. I'd still rather have Wise in the 25-man roster over Anderson, he brings the speed and base-stealing ability this team needs, which Owens can't provide. Plus it seems to me that Anderson wouldn't be getting as much love by White Sox fans he's getting if he wasn't white.

 

When it comes to having a "defensive replacement" on the team, I'd rather have Juan Uribe, and that's saying a lot.

 

You really don't want people to take you seriously, do you?

 

Sox fans want the best team on the field, period. If you are looking for a team who can't see past race, maybe you should look at the one whose fans were were wearing racist T-shirts to games last season. You also might want to look past the team whose most beloved player in franchise history isn't white, their manager isn't white (and is loved), and whose GM isn't white (and is pretty well loved as well). You also might want to look past a team whose current players that are really well loved include a Cuban at SS, a Cuban 3b who has never even played an out of minor league baseball, and a black RF who is pretty much universally loved by Sox fans everywhere. You also might want to not look at a team who has a pitching staff that is going to be 40% minority and has everyone excited as well.

 

Yeah, if you are going to make racist comments, you might want to take a look at the anecdotal evidence that pretty much universally tells me you are full of it.

[bmags]

My gut instinct is due to Nix's route to the bigs is that he isn't anything overly special at 2nd.

 

more to do with his bat than his glove, which by all accounts rate him very high.

[Kalapse]

more to do with his bat than his glove, which by all accounts rate him very high.

Yeah, after leaving A ball in 2003 he put up mid .600 OPSs in each of the next 3 seasons. He finally showed some life in '07 which earned him a spot on the major league roster coming out of spring training in '08, he of course bombed at the plate in April and was demoted back to AAA. He's just never hit well enough to get anyone excited.

[caulfield12]

The best defensive alignment is certainly Nix at 2B, Lillibridge (or possibly Ramirez) at SS and Anderson in CF.

 

Offensively, you'd have to go with Beckham at SS, Getz or Nix (2B) and Ramirez/Kroeger in CF.

 

Just from what little I've seen of both of them, I would prefer Ramirez over Beckham at SS because he has a little more range and a better arm. It's where he (Ramirez) most wants to play, feels confident and it should be his position to lose, as he waited for one season playing out of position for O-Cabrera. Guillen recently said that watching Ramirez at SS would make "White Sox fans forget about him (Guillen) at that position..." You're not going to hear him make that remark about Beckham. Read into it what you will.

 

Putting Beckham in CF is not and never will be an option. He could arguably play a corner OF spot, but then his bat isn't as nearly as valuable a tool/weapon as in the middle infield.

 

It's pretty obvious that Getz, Beckham and Ramirez are the most talented hitters to play at the top of the line-up. Probably, hitting Beckham first and Ramirez second and putting Getz (or Nix) down in the 9th hole would be ideal. I just can't see giving Getz 50-75 more at-bats in a season than someone as dynamic at the plate as Alexei.

 

We can look at Owens, Wise, Lillibridge and Kroeger and say they're not ready to be regular players (either offensively or defensively) or they just aren't starters on a major league ballclub.

 

Playing at USCF, the focus will always have to be on offense first, that's why we can get away with AJ at catcher. It's also why I wouldn't be surprised to see an almost "double-switch" approach with Corky Miller late in games to put him in a position to throw out opposing basestealers....and they certainly have to work with Floyd, Contreras and Jenks with holding runners on.

 

I don't even like Brian Anderson's defense THAT much, but I'm willing to put him out there for as long as he can hit .240 with 15-25 homers and 10-12 stolen bases. I'm not convinced he can hit .240 going against the best RH pitchers as well...but I'm tired of hearing how he would be Torii Hunter, Jr., if he only received regular playing time and could get into a rhythm. I'm a little bit like Melton is on MacDougal...my patience is wearing thin, but I think Anderson will have one last legit shot to be a regular and that will be the end of it.

 

Ozzie is smart enough to know Wise can't stand up over a full season in CF, just like it was obvious Mackowiak and Erstad couldn't it.

 

If we had Quentin in RF, Anderson/Jordan Danks in CF, Ramirez at SS, Beckham/Nix/Getz at 2B and Viciedo at 1B (actually, I think he'll be fine at 3B, and his arm was as good as advertised) we'd have only average or below average defense from Fields (who looks like he could be at least "average" if 100% healthy and confident...you can imagine that his offensive game taking off would have a corresponding positive influence on his D), the catching spot (although AJ's handling of pitchers and game-calling isn't added into the equation by measurement/quants) and I'm sure we could find someone who would be better than Quentin in LF (maybe Shelby or a FA).

Edited March 11, 2009 by caulfield12

[RockRaines]

Kroeger can play CF. He was called a good athlete and was a college WR.

[iamshack]

I dunno, I just am not buying the defensive metrics as much as I buy the offensive metrics. I think his range may have been a bit shaky, but considering his speed, and what I assume is a fairly decent ability to move laterally, it seems that with experience, Alexei should improve at 2b due to getting a better feel for the angles and the speed at which the ball gets to him at that position. That being said, from what I've read here, Alexei got worse defensively as the season wore on...

 

Not to be a pure skeptic, but I've seen that many teams are discounting these metrics and beginning to use some far more advanced - so much more so that they are proprietary information and not openly disseminated on the intrawebs. I'm not trying to say all defensive metrics are useless, but they certainly appear to have more holes in them than offensive metrics do...

 

JMHO...

[Heads22]

The best defensive alignment is certainly Nix at 2B, Lillibridge (or possibly Ramirez) at SS and Anderson in CF.

 

Offensively, you'd have to go with Beckham at SS, Getz or Nix (2B) and Ramirez/Kroeger in CF.

 

Just from what little I've seen of both of them, I would prefer Ramirez over Beckham at SS because he has a little more range and a better arm. It's where he (Ramirez) most wants to play, feels confident and it should be his position to lose, as he waited for one season playing out of position for O-Cabrera. Guillen recently said that watching Ramirez at SS would make "White Sox fans forget about him (Guillen) at that position..." You're not going to hear him make that remark about Beckham. Read into it what you will.

 

Putting Beckham in CF is not and never will be an option. He could arguably play a corner OF spot, but then his bat isn't as nearly as valuable a tool/weapon as in the middle infield.

 

It's pretty obvious that Getz, Beckham and Ramirez are the most talented hitters to play at the top of the line-up. Probably, hitting Beckham first and Ramirez second and putting Getz (or Nix) down in the 9th hole would be ideal. I just can't see giving Getz 50-75 more at-bats in a season than someone as dynamic at the plate as Alexei.

 

We can look at Owens, Wise, Lillibridge and Kroeger and say they're not ready to be regular players (either offensively or defensively) or they just aren't starters on a major league ballclub.

 

Playing at USCF, the focus will always have to be on offense first, that's why we can get away with AJ at catcher. It's also why I wouldn't be surprised to see an almost "double-switch" approach with Corky Miller late in games to put him in a position to throw out opposing basestealers....and they certainly have to work with Floyd, Contreras and Jenks with holding runners on.

 

I don't even like Brian Anderson's defense THAT much, but I'm willing to put him out there for as long as he can hit .240 with 15-25 homers and 10-12 stolen bases. I'm not convinced he can hit .240 going against the best RH pitchers as well...but I'm tired of hearing how he would be Torii Hunter, Jr., if he only received regular playing time and could get into a rhythm. I'm a little bit like Melton is on MacDougal...my patience is wearing thin, but I think Anderson will have one last legit shot to be a regular and that will be the end of it.

 

Ozzie is smart enough to know Wise can't stand up over a full season in CF, just like it was obvious Mackowiak and Erstad couldn't it.

 

If we had Quentin in RF, Anderson/Jordan Danks in CF, Ramirez at SS, Beckham/Nix/Getz at 2B and Viciedo at 1B (actually, I think he'll be fine at 3B, and his arm was as good as advertised) we'd have only average or below average defense from Fields (who looks like he could be at least "average" if 100% healthy and confident...you can imagine that his offensive game taking off would have a corresponding positive influence on his D), the catching spot (although AJ's handling of pitchers and game-calling isn't added into the equation by measurement/quants) and I'm sure we could find someone who would be better than Quentin in LF (maybe Shelby or a FA).

 

Brian's defense in center is way above average, especially in comparison to the alternatives.

 

[caulfield12]

Sometimes Anderson doesn't think out there...he's a very good athlete playing CF instead of a "natural" baseball player like Beckham who happens to be athletically-gifted...he misses the cut-off man or just has brain cramps, whether in the field or on the basepaths. (Yes, I realize he had a really good throw last week to nab someone trying to score at the plate).

 

Still, it's the evil of two lessers (or three lessers) or the lesser of three evils argument, I suppose.

 

Who will hurt the White Sox the least as a regular? If you stick him the 8 or 9 hole, I'll vote for Anderson at this point. Not because he has really "won" the job, but just because the other logical choices are worse.

[Y2HH]

Sometimes Anderson doesn't think out there...he's a very good athlete playing CF instead of a "natural" baseball player like Beckham who happens to be athletically-gifted...he misses the cut-off man or just has brain cramps, whether in the field or on the basepaths. (Yes, I realize he had a really good throw last week to nab someone trying to score at the plate).

 

Still, it's the evil of two lessers (or three lessers) or the lesser of three evils argument, I suppose.

 

Who will hurt the White Sox the least as a regular? If you stick him the 8 or 9 hole, I'll vote for Anderson at this point. Not because he has really "won" the job, but just because the other logical choices are worse.

 

Agreed on Anderson. I think what he lacks at the plate is made up for on defense. His brain cramps aside, a lot of would be singles/doubles are outs with Anderson out there, while they aren't with the alternatives. Also, who knows, maybe Anderson will catch lightning in a bottle and find his swing...finally.

[caulfield12]

Kroeger can play CF. He was called a good athlete and was a college WR.

 

 

The problem with that argument is that so was Jerry Owens...

 

Between his bad reads/jumps and noodle arm, he's definitely in the bottom 33% of CFers defensively, overall. If he had an average arm, you could argue he's close to the middle of the pack.

 

There has to be SOME reason all these teams have never tried him in CF in recent years (like the DBacks, Cubs and now Ozzie in ST)...and why's he being referred to as a possibility for back-up corner infield and 1B (Ross Gload-ish) instead of as a competitor for the starting CF job.

[GreatScott82]

Agreed on Anderson. I think what he lacks at the plate is made up for on defense. His brain cramps aside, a lot of would be singles/doubles are outs with Anderson out there, while they aren't with the alternatives. Also, who knows, maybe Anderson will catch lightning in a bottle and find his swing...finally.

I would love the Alexie CF, Beckham SS, Getz 2B scenario but unfortanatley that wont happen. They have had it set in stone that Alexie was going to be our everyday SS since the middle of last season. But as some of you guys have mentioned, at least Anderson can play stellar defense while Owens and Wise are nothing more than a late inning pinch runner at best. Alexie at the #2 spot may be a a solid idea... I just really hope Owens doesnt make the team because of our lack of a sterotypical leadoff hitter. Unfortantely that is probably going to happen.

 

 

[GREEDY]

I am not saying he is the "end all" but Bill James rated AliceYaaaay! the 27th best 2nd baseman in '08; That is BAD.

 

I am not saying it is the "end all" but RZR rates The Cubman Missaaaale third to worst out of qualifying 2nd basemen in '08; That is BAD.

 

In his first year in MLB at SS, Alexbobbyseay will be a BELOW AVERAGE SS.

 

 

-------

 

 

 

Even if you fellas are confident in Nix's defense, do you really think Nix is going to start enough games at 2nd to consider us ABOVE AVERAGE there defensively?

 

 

-------

 

 

Apparently everyone is confident we aren't looking at a Collander/Fields platoon at 3rd... I am not. Even if the Fields Defense KoolAid is a sippin' I am not confident Ozzie can control himself and leave Josh alone at the hot corner. If Betemit even starts 25 games at 3rd (I wouldn't be suprised if it is more like 75) that pushes whatever skills Josh all of a sudden has to: BAD.

 

 

------

 

 

With JD in RF we need all the help we can get in CF. Coco Crisp would have been nice (never thought I'd say that one).

 

 

------

 

 

Finally, while obv. I buy the Cell as a hitter's park, I am not buying that "hitting comes first" there. I think the way the ball flies out of park in the summer makes defense that much more important. If Owens doesn't make a play in center, that is just that many pitches Buehrle has to throw with men on base and that is just that much quicker that you get into the pen. Poor defense exposes our pitchers just that much more.

[caulfield12]

Let's look at total chances per inning...another measure.

 

Kinsler .658

A. Cabrera .625

Jose Lopez .601 (he's NOT a good defender and the M's pitching was very bad last year, so more opportunities, more batters per inning)

Polanco .587

Cano .581 (also not a good defender, better than Soriano, but not a Top 5 2B)

Kendrick .571

 

Alexei Ramirez .565

 

Mark Ellis .561 (always known as a good defender, probably moreso than for his offense)

Brian Roberts .559

Grudzielanek .556

Alexi Casilla .545 (he's good enough the Twins were considering moving him back to SS)

Pedroia .533 (this is largely a product of the Red Sox pitching staff giving him fewer opportunities, your 2008 Gold Glove winner)

Iwamura .515

 

The reason he was lower among the qualified is that there WERE ONLY EIGHT OF THEM in the AL...NOT A LONG LIST.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...umn=rangeFactor

 

In terms of Range Factor, he's very squarely in the middle of the pack. Of course, who is #1? Ian Kinsler, one of the worst defenders in the AL. Kinsler, in fact, is the outlier, everyone else is bunched up. Pedroia, the Gold Glove winner, is down towards the very bottom (for reasons listed below). Kinsler plays on that fast infield, where there is a premium on opposing batters putting the ball on the ground and in play...and the Rangers' putrid pitching for years has given Kinsler and Michael Young more opportunities out there than Jon Daniels would prefer. Plus, there aren't very many high K/IP pitchers on that staff either, so more chances.

 

There are so many other factors in these statistics...

 

How good your overall pitching staff is (team ERA), how many strikeouts they accumulate (taking away fielding opportunities), the type of infield you play on (surface), the number of fastball "dominant" pitchers (which would result in more balls hit the opposite way) on the staff, etc.

 

I don't buy any of these ratings, personally. It's one interesting measure. I would agree that Iwamura isn't a very good 2B, and every stat puts him near the bottom.

 

Statistically, you know who would be #2, both in terms of quant rating and total chances per inning???

 

JUAN URIBE, .632, 5.66

 

That tells me something, because Uribe has LOST a lot of range over the last couple of the seasons, and the weight gain is a primary reason. Yet, according to two statistical measures, he's the 2nd best secondbaseman in all of MLB. Which probably explains why he couldn't get a major league contract.

 

The quants thought they had the stock market risk figured out and we ended up with Long Term Capital Mgt group (two Nobel Prize winners for Econ) and then CDO's/derivatives. These statistical programs actually created more risk in the system. In terms of baseball, they might be a useful tool, but they put, for instance, Nate McLouth at the bottom too in CF and he won the Gold Glove. Because of his throw during the ASG?

 

Trust your eyeballs. They'll tell you that Ramirez has a 70+ arm on the rating scale (behind only Furcal, Dunston, Uribe, Valentin in his prime) and that his arm will make up for any number of mistakes out there...is he going to be great? I don't know yet. But I think he'll be very good, just as he was a very good (but not great) 2B, playing a new position in a new country for the very first time in the heat of a pennant race, when he wasn't used to such a long season. But I guess we expect perfection.

Edited March 11, 2009 by caulfield12

[SoxAce]

Let's look at total chances per inning...another measure.

 

Kinsler .658

A. Cabrera .625

Jose Lopez .601 (he's NOT a good defender and the M's pitching was very bad last year, so more opportunities, more batters per inning)

Polanco .587

Cano .581 (also not a good defender, better than Soriano, but not a Top 5 2B)

Kendrick .571

 

Alexei Ramirez .565

 

Mark Ellis .561 (always known as a good defender, probably moreso than for his offense)

Brian Roberts .559

Grudzielanek .556

Alexi Casilla .545 (he's good enough the Twins were considering moving him back to SS)

Pedroia .533 (this is largely a product of the Red Sox pitching staff giving him fewer opportunities)

Iwamura .515

 

The reason he was lower among the qualified is that there WERE ONLY EIGHT OF THEM...NOT A LONG LIST.

 

I think I made the cutoff at 400 Total Chances. That's only 13 players. I can't see how Bill Freakin' James can possibly rate Ramirez 27th, when the other players he's behind played 80-100 games.

 

There are so many other factors in these statistics...

 

How good your overall pitching staff is (team ERA), how many strikeouts they accumulate (taking away fielding opportunities), the type of infield you play on (surface), the number of fastball "dominant" pitchers (which would result in more balls hit the opposite way) on the staff, etc.

 

I don't buy any of these ratings, personally. It's one interesting measure. I would agree that Iwamura isn't a very good 2B, and every stat puts him near the bottom.

 

Statistically, you know who would be #2, both in terms of quant rating and total chances per inning???

 

JUAN URIBE, .632, 5.66

 

That tells me something, because Uribe has LOST a lot of range over the last couple of the seasons, and the weight gain is a primary reason. Yet, according to two statistical measures, he's the 2nd best secondbaseman in all of MLB. Which probably explains why he couldn't get a major league contract.

 

The quants thought they had the stock market risk figured out and we ended up with Long Term Capital Mgt group (two Nobel Prize winners for Econ) and then CDO's/derivatives. These statistical programs actually created more risk in the system. In terms of baseball, they might be a useful tool, but they put, for instance, Nate McLouth at the bottom too in CF and he won the Gold Glove. Because of his throw during the ASG?

 

Trust your eyeballs. They'll tell you that Ramirez has a 70+ arm on the rating scale (behind only Furcal, Dunston, Uribe, Valentin in his prime) and that his arm will make up for any number of mistakes out there...is he going to be great? I don't know yet. But I think he'll be very good, just as he was a very good (but not great) 2B, playing a new position in a new country for the very first time in the heat of a pennant race, when he wasn't used to such a long season. But I guess we expect perfection.

 

Might be the best post I've seen you put since you've been here. Very nice read and I basically agree with all of it.

[bmags]

Even if you fellas are confident in Nix's defense, do you really think Nix is going to start enough games at 2nd to consider us ABOVE AVERAGE there defensively?

 

Yeah, I mean, I can't see us splitting time at 2nd honestly. If Nix wins 2nd, I'd imagine he's going to be playing there a hell of a lot. And even so, your post was just confusing, considering we know Nix is good to great at second, and that Getz is supposedly average. So then shouldn't your rating be average/good, based on which wins?