IT Certification

[nitetrain8601]

I posted this somewhere else as well.

 

Well, without too much detail, I'm interested a ton in computers and networking. I enjoy fixing computers because it saves money, but I enjoy almost anything that has to do with them, especially networking. With that said, I've had people suggest to me that maybe I should get into the IT field.

 

So I was wondering Soxtalk, how do I go about gaining education in IT? How would I obtain a job? What's the job outlook? I heard about certifications, what are the best ones to gain? Where do you guys suggest a n00b like me start? What are some projects at home that I could do to test to see if I would actually like it? What are the most popular certifications? Any more information would be accepted as well.

 

[HuskyCaucasian]

Take a look at your local community college. They may offer some certifications (A+, Network+, Security+). I've considered going that route, but I just dont have the time or money to do it right now.

 

Prices on certification classes and the required testing may vary.

[RockRaines]

PM SSI, he's an IT guy.

[mr_genius]

I posted this somewhere else as well.

 

Well, without too much detail, I'm interested a ton in computers and networking. I enjoy fixing computers because it saves money, but I enjoy almost anything that has to do with them, especially networking. With that said, I've had people suggest to me that maybe I should get into the IT field.

 

So I was wondering Soxtalk, how do I go about gaining education in IT? How would I obtain a job? What's the job outlook? I heard about certifications, what are the best ones to gain? Where do you guys suggest a n00b like me start? What are some projects at home that I could do to test to see if I would actually like it? What are the most popular certifications? Any more information would be accepted as well.

 

In the current market I'm not sure a cert alone will get you a job, but it's worth a try if you really like technology. It's not that big of an investment to buy the books and study up and pay for the test.

 

If you have time, I would suggest trying to get into a good computer science program. The University of Illinois has a top notch one. Starting school at a community college is good too, just make sure you take a good mix of the math and foundation type classes for computer science. However, I heard even some computer science grads are having a little trouble in the current environment. Of course, nothing is for sure.

[nitetrain8601]

In the current market I'm not sure a cert alone will get you a job, but it's worth a try if you really like technology. It's not that big of an investment to buy the books and study up and pay for the test.

 

If you have time, I would suggest trying to get into a good computer science program. The University of Illinois has a top notch one. Starting school at a community college is good too, just make sure you take a good mix of the math and foundation type classes for computer science. However, I heard even some computer science grads are having a little trouble in the current environment. Of course, nothing is for sure.

 

Well I'm doing it much more because of interest. Making money would be great as well. I would look to get several certificates just so I won't limit myself. Thanks for the information. I'm going to look into programs, but I'm going to start looking for some books first.

 

Thanks guys.

[kapkomet]

In the current market I'm not sure a cert alone will get you a job, but it's worth a try if you really like technology. It's not that big of an investment to buy the books and study up and pay for the test.

 

If you have time, I would suggest trying to get into a good computer science program. The University of Illinois has a top notch one. Starting school at a community college is good too, just make sure you take a good mix of the math and foundation type classes for computer science. However, I heard even some computer science grads are having a little trouble in the current environment. Of course, nothing is for sure.

Everyone's having trouble in this environment. Trust me. This is the longest I have not worked since high school (20 years).

[nitetrain8601]

Everyone's having trouble in this environment. Trust me. This is the longest I have not worked since high school (20 years).

 

Oldie!

[mr_genius]

Everyone's having trouble in this environment. Trust me. This is the longest I have not worked since high school (20 years).

 

That sucks man, best of luck finding a new position. You're right, the job market is really terrible for most everything except some heatlh care industries from what I've been reading.

[RockRaines]

Well I'm doing it much more because of interest. Making money would be great as well. I would look to get several certificates just so I won't limit myself. Thanks for the information. I'm going to look into programs, but I'm going to start looking for some books first.

 

Thanks guys.

I work for a software company and I assure you, were are constantly hiring IT folks for engineering, consulting and even data center jobs.

[southsideirish71]

Well I'm doing it much more because of interest. Making money would be great as well. I would look to get several certificates just so I won't limit myself. Thanks for the information. I'm going to look into programs, but I'm going to start looking for some books first.

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

I can write up a list of books, and give you some websites to use to read up on networking, and some specific technologies out there. If you could let me know specifically what you are looking at now it will help. You will find out, certifications are a necessary evil. Most paper based certs are worthless by themselves. They prove only that you can memorize a set of facts, and regurgitate them. However non-technical HR people get hundreds if not thousands of resumes, and use a automated system looking for keywords to qualify you for an interview. You won't get past the door without them. Case in point. I was certiifed as a CCIE with a few years experience at the time and was trying to apply for security jobs. I didn't get a nibble in the security arena, because I didn't have CISSP on my resume. I picked up a book, passed that silly cert and boom got a job right after. Make sure that if you are serious about this, that you spend some of that time learning the theories behind the scenes. You don't have to know the bits and bytes. But its easier to troubleshoot when you know the basic laws on why something happens under the hood.

 

 

[RockRaines]

I can write up a list of books, and give you some websites to use to read up on networking, and some specific technologies out there. If you could let me know specifically what you are looking at now it will help. You will find out, certifications are a necessary evil. Most paper based certs are worthless by themselves. They prove only that you can memorize a set of facts, and regurgitate them. However non-technical HR people get hundreds if not thousands of resumes, and use a automated system looking for keywords to qualify you for an interview. You won't get past the door without them. Case in point. I was certiifed as a CCIE with a few years experience at the time and was trying to apply for security jobs. I didn't get a nibble in the security arena, because I didn't have CISSP on my resume. I picked up a book, passed that silly cert and boom got a job right after. Make sure that if you are serious about this, that you spend some of that time learning the theories behind the scenes. You don't have to know the bits and bytes. But its easier to troubleshoot when you know the basic laws on why something happens under the hood.

Or just buy great software to do that for you....

[nitetrain8601]

I work for a software company and I assure you, were are constantly hiring IT folks for engineering, consulting and even data center jobs.

 

Sounds good to me. If I could make a career out of it, that would be a bonus.

 

I can write up a list of books, and give you some websites to use to read up on networking, and some specific technologies out there. If you could let me know specifically what you are looking at now it will help. You will find out, certifications are a necessary evil. Most paper based certs are worthless by themselves. They prove only that you can memorize a set of facts, and regurgitate them. However non-technical HR people get hundreds if not thousands of resumes, and use a automated system looking for keywords to qualify you for an interview. You won't get past the door without them. Case in point. I was certiifed as a CCIE with a few years experience at the time and was trying to apply for security jobs. I didn't get a nibble in the security arena, because I didn't have CISSP on my resume. I picked up a book, passed that silly cert and boom got a job right after. Make sure that if you are serious about this, that you spend some of that time learning the theories behind the scenes. You don't have to know the bits and bytes. But its easier to troubleshoot when you know the basic laws on why something happens under the hood.

 

Well, I'm barely barely starting off. I realize it takes years of experience and that's why I'm doing it and know I'm committed. I want to learn so I have knowledge and not just to make money. I've always been interested, but never been in any programs nor do I have any friends who are in IT. With that said, I was looking into MCSE. If you could give me a list of books and programs that would help me understand how it works, that would be great. Me, personally, if I get something right or wrong, I want to know why it is right or wrong, not just the correct answer. I've always been super interested in computer networks and security, but never knew the proper outlets. I want to take my computer knowledge as far as I can go. Again, because I think it would be something I would enjoy.

[kapkomet]

I suggest half price books, if you have one where you live.

 

They have a s***load of those types of books.

 

[Whitewashed in '05]

You have the right attitude about it. You have a genuine interest and want to know how it works. One of the best ways to learn is experimenting hands on. Reading a book is only going to teach you theory, but if you read and experiment you can learn a lot.

 

For beginners I recommend creating a small network at home. Get yourself an XP, Vista, and Win2K3 server if possible and network them. You can start off with a simple workgrouped network and eventually move up to a domain. Make sure all the computers can see each other and you can share files with each one of them and share printers as well.

 

Another good thing to do is to make your 2k3 machine a web/ftp server. Create a small web page that says hello world, log into it through ftp and upload and download some files. Configure remote desktop and port forward it to your server on your router. You can use dyndns.org or no-ip.com for free to create a web domain.

 

At the same time you can read some books to learn about networking protocols specifically TCP/IP to learn how your network at home works. I am sure SSI will provide you with a nice reading list as he did for me and a bunch of good advice.

 

The best thing about experimenting at home then going to school is that you will be able to fly by all the intro courses and even know a bit when you get to the higher level courses by doing experimenting. One thing to remember though is you can't get cocky and close minded. I see a lot of people who think they know it all because they already know what the teacher is teaching. You will learn useful bits and pieces everywhere.

 

If you have any questions send me a pm.

[Y2HH]

If you are looking for a place to start, start with A+/Network+, and I say this because it's basically the entry gate to the IT industry. The tests are very basic and cover a general knowledge area of the PC world, without going into anything complex. You can self study them just by buying any book on the subject matter (or going to the library). From there, if you want to go the networking path (which I'd recommend), I'd start with the CCNA (Cisco) and move on from there. After you've done those you will know enough to know which direction to go. The alternative is to go for the MCSE (Microsoft Engineer certifications). I have to say, however, I'm not a big fan of vendor specific certifications, I find them to be mostly a scam for those companies to collect extra money every few years. What I mean by this is, for the most part, you will pass a certification exam and they will purposefully "expire" that certification a year or two later so you can pay them again to retake the test. That, IMO, is equivalent to your college/university calling and saying, "You know what, we're gonna need you to come back for another four years because we've decided to "expire" your degree." I find it a very cheap and often used practice on IT certifications...it's a total sham. If you continue to work in the industry, as with any degree, it's taken into consideration you've kept up on technology and learned/grew with the times. That said, don't let my opinion on the matter sway you. Get into the IT industry, it has a bright future -- but as with anything, you'll have to start at the bottom and be willing to accept that!

 

Certifications do very little to replace industry experience, which is the ever living paradox of the industrial world. No experience, no job! Well...how the hell do I get a job if nobody will give me a chance to get experience?! I've found, throughout my career, that most people in IT end up where they are on accident. For example, most of us start out in entry level jobs, and somewhere along the line an opportunity arises which allows us to move into something "bigger or better", but again, that depends on your viewpoint as to what's bigger or better. There are distinct paths in the IT industry, and the path you end up on is usually accidental, e.g. programming, networking, operating systems, security, etc. Back in the late 90's, I worked for a small Chicago ISP called American Information Systems (a job I got through a friend), I started as tech support for dialup customers and move onto the desktop support administrator role about a year after. That's just a fancy IT title for the guy that fixes users PC issues around the office. From there, I started doing minor windows server administration. Shortly after, Exodus Communications (now bankrupt) buys out that small company and my new boss says, "Hey, how would you feel about being our local firewall guy?!" I had never worked on a single firewall in my life at this point, mind you, so I tell him...I have no experience in that realm, and he says, "So what, here is a PIX and a Checkpoint firewall...learn them." The rest is history. I went on to get the silly CISSP in 2000 and have held it since, and now I do PIX/Checkpoint/F5 Load Balancing for a living...like I said, where I entered and where I ended up is pure coincidence. I stumbled into it the security path. The only thing you can do is enter into a low paying jr admin job so you can get on the job training.

 

If I had to say which area has the brightest future, it's the security area of IT, and as I see it, nothing else even comes close. Not only is the security path of IT short on people across the board, it's getting worse, because everyone wants to be a hacker these days...not the guy who stop them.

 

And I absolutely agree to the poster above me, the best way to learn is to teach yourself by building your own network. Any computers will do, try to get them from friends/family who have recently replaced their old computer, or have old computers laying around they aren't using anymore but still work. Speed doesn't matter, it's just a way to enable you to build a network of different operating systems and see if you can get them working together, and to understand WHY they work together. Break them...mess with them, and then try to fix them. You'll find the time flying by when you hit a bump in the road and you research/toy with how to fix it. I spent so many hours in high school doing this it's not even funny. It sounds like a joke, but you'll learn more doing that than reading any book.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Y2HH

[RockRaines]

If I had to say which area has the brightest future, it's the security area of IT, and as I see it, nothing else even comes close. Not only is the security path of IT short on people across the board, it's getting worse, because everyone wants to be a hacker these days...not the guy who stop them.

While I would say thats a good niche, I personally see the most growth in IT in Virtual Systems management and applicatioon work for a SOA or web based infrastructure. Also a great area of growth for new grads is actually mainframe technology. Many of the folks that have mainframe experience and knowledge are getting old and retiring leaving large companies with huge holes in their teams. The mainframe is still growing year over year actually is making some advances in the area of green IT.

[southsideirish71]

If you are looking for a place to start, start with A+/Network+, and I say this because it's basically the entry gate to the IT industry. The tests are very basic and cover a general knowledge area of the PC world, without going into anything complex. You can self study them just by buying any book on the subject matter (or going to the library). From there, if you want to go the networking path (which I'd recommend), I'd start with the CCNA (Cisco) and move on from there. After you've done those you will know enough to know which direction to go. The alternative is to go for the MCSE (Microsoft Engineer certifications). I have to say, however, I'm not a big fan of vendor specific certifications, I find them to be mostly a scam for those companies to collect extra money every few years. What I mean by this is, for the most part, you will pass a certification exam and they will purposefully "expire" that certification a year or two later so you can pay them again to retake the test. That, IMO, is equivalent to your college/university calling and saying, "You know what, we're gonna need you to come back for another four years because we've decided to "expire" your degree." I find it a very cheap and often used practice on IT certifications...it's a total sham. If you continue to work in the industry, as with any degree, it's taken into consideration you've kept up on technology and learned/grew with the times. That said, don't let my opinion on the matter sway you. Get into the IT industry, it has a bright future -- but as with anything, you'll have to start at the bottom and be willing to accept that!

 

Certifications do very little to replace industry experience, which is the ever living paradox of the industrial world. No experience, no job! Well...how the hell do I get a job if nobody will give me a chance to get experience?! I've found, throughout my career, that most people in IT end up where they are on accident. For example, most of us start out in entry level jobs, and somewhere along the line an opportunity arises which allows us to move into something "bigger or better", but again, that depends on your viewpoint as to what's bigger or better. There are distinct paths in the IT industry, and the path you end up on is usually accidental, e.g. programming, networking, operating systems, security, etc. Back in the late 90's, I worked for a small Chicago ISP called American Information Systems (a job I got through a friend), I started as tech support for dialup customers and move onto the desktop support administrator role about a year after. That's just a fancy IT title for the guy that fixes users PC issues around the office. From there, I started doing minor windows server administration. Shortly after, Exodus Communications (now bankrupt) buys out that small company and my new boss says, "Hey, how would you feel about being our local firewall guy?!" I had never worked on a single firewall in my life at this point, mind you, so I tell him...I have no experience in that realm, and he says, "So what, here is a PIX and a Checkpoint firewall...learn them." The rest is history. I went on to get the silly CISSP in 2000 and have held it since, and now I do PIX/Checkpoint/F5 Load Balancing for a living...like I said, where I entered and where I ended up is pure coincidence. I stumbled into it the security path. The only thing you can do is enter into a low paying jr admin job so you can get on the job training.

 

If I had to say which area has the brightest future, it's the security area of IT, and as I see it, nothing else even comes close. Not only is the security path of IT short on people across the board, it's getting worse, because everyone wants to be a hacker these days...not the guy who stop them.

 

And I absolutely agree to the poster above me, the best way to learn is to teach yourself by building your own network. Any computers will do, try to get them from friends/family who have recently replaced their old computer, or have old computers laying around they aren't using anymore but still work. Speed doesn't matter, it's just a way to enable you to build a network of different operating systems and see if you can get them working together, and to understand WHY they work together. Break them...mess with them, and then try to fix them. You'll find the time flying by when you hit a bump in the road and you research/toy with how to fix it. I spent so many hours in high school doing this it's not even funny. It sounds like a joke, but you'll learn more doing that than reading any book.

 

This is so true. My journey into security went down a similar path. I was working at a hospital in the Infrastructure group working on Cisco equipment. They wanted to move from the Cisco product to the checkpoint product, which at the time was just realeased. It ran on Solaris and I was the only one in my group who touched Unix at all. It was thrown my way. I left that hospital, then moved to a big company working for their US networking group. I worked as a Unix admin, managing the US based firewalls and got my big break which was they had an global security position open. I actually helped them interview people for over a year and finally they offered it to me. I have never looked back.

 

And one more thing to add to Y2HH's post. Lots of people realize that security is the way to go as far as specialization. You will run into a large amount of charlatans out there in this industry. Self proclaimed security experts because they ran an automated tool once, are getting a masters in IT security, or passed some cert. So if you do specialize in this, remember good people are still hard to find in this industry.

[Scwible]

Priceless info guys. Thanks a bunch.

 

Like nitetrain, I was interested in computers and all that, so I've started the journey down the certification road. Just started in january on getting my A+ at my local community college. A+ doesn't seem all that hard and the prof I have is on a comptia commitee that works on the tests. CCNA on the other hand, seems slightly harder.

[RockRaines]

Self proclaimed security experts because they ran an automated tool once, are getting a masters in IT security, or passed some cert. So if you do specialize in this, remember good people are still hard to find in this industry.

Understatement right there. I could run some of the tools out there today and I have a psych degree.

[Scwible]

Question, do you fellows here who are in the field have a degree that is related to what you do? computer science, etc....

[nitetrain8601]

Great info guys. Now I know why only one of the guys in our IT department isn't a huge douchebag.

[Y2HH]

Question, do you fellows here who are in the field have a degree that is related to what you do? computer science, etc....

 

I have a degree, but I've never once used it. I have a bachelors in CIS/Computer Information Systems (which is a fancy schmancy way of saying computer programmer). About three months before graduation I was in the lab working on my senior project, executing code, finding errors, debugging them, executing it again, etc. -- and it suddenly dawned on me -- I hated computer programming. Hated it. It was tedious, repetitive and boring. But wait, I find this out NOW?! It took me about 4 years to realize that and I'm graduating in three months?! As it goes, that same year I got a part time job working at that ISP I spoke of earlier which opened a world of computers I had never really considered at that point...networking. You have to keep in mind that this was the 90's, and the Internet was a relatively new concept for most, and nobody had really found a way to make money on that concept yet...so networking was a new thing, and it was a wonderful thing.

 

I remember the first time I connected my Commodore 64 to another computer via modem -- it opened a world to me beyond imagination. I've never looked back. But make no mistake, while I have a passion for the computer world on my personal time, while I'm at work, it's business time. I like my job, I don't love it. Love is reserved for my family, my hobbies and my personal time.

[RockRaines]

Question, do you fellows here who are in the field have a degree that is related to what you do? computer science, etc....

I'm personally on the IT sales side but hold a few certs. I have a psych degree with a focus on child dev.

[Y2HH]

This is so true. My journey into security went down a similar path. I was working at a hospital in the Infrastructure group working on Cisco equipment. They wanted to move from the Cisco product to the checkpoint product, which at the time was just realeased. It ran on Solaris and I was the only one in my group who touched Unix at all. It was thrown my way. I left that hospital, then moved to a big company working for their US networking group. I worked as a Unix admin, managing the US based firewalls and got my big break which was they had an global security position open. I actually helped them interview people for over a year and finally they offered it to me. I have never looked back.

 

And one more thing to add to Y2HH's post. Lots of people realize that security is the way to go as far as specialization. You will run into a large amount of charlatans out there in this industry. Self proclaimed security experts because they ran an automated tool once, are getting a masters in IT security, or passed some cert. So if you do specialize in this, remember good people are still hard to find in this industry.

 

You aren't kidding. My friend works in the security department for Apple (in the Cupertino campus), and often shares his experiences with me in the interviews he gives people. One of his most often failed questions goes like so:

 

"If you had root on a *NIX machine, but could only use the default tools on the server/not install anything new or run any sort of script, what would be one of the first steps you take to figure out what kind of server it is, what it does, etc.?!"

 

Now you would be amazed that 99% of the "charlatans", as you called them, answer with, "I'd use NMAP or something similar to portscan the server." Which of course you cannot do, because he just said NO INSTALLING ANYTHING OR RUNNING SCRIPTS. As you pointed out, people lean on these types of programs to call themselves experts. When more simple commands such as netstat -an would give you the information he just asked for in 1/1000th the time. Or how about, I don't know...taking a peek at the process list?! Needless to say, these people don't get hired...but they a majority of his applicants. And their resumes are COMPLETELY fabricated/embellished. Bottom line, don't use tools/scripts to drive 100 miles when the place you're trying to go is only 1 mile away.

[southsideirish71]

Question, do you fellows here who are in the field have a degree that is related to what you do? computer science, etc....

 

At the time I started in this industry there was no degree program in networking. All of the Computer related classes were in programming. My degree is in Criminal Justice.