scenario Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Looking for a little help/conversation on the subject of Alexei at shortstop. I think we've all been influenced by the stories in the media that SS is Alexei's natural position, that he is most comfortable there, etc. But how much time has he actually logged at short? (I was motivated by one of Kalapse's posts suggesting moving Alexei to CF to do a little digging (not alot) regarding the positions Alexei actually played in Cuba... and how much at each position.) Maybe I'm wrong or missed something, but I couldn't find anything that clearly showed that he had EVER played SS. It appears he was primarily an outfielder and later moved to 2B. The implications are obvious. If he has minimal ACTUAL experience as a shortstop, why is the organization penciling him in there, instead of CF where it's clear he has prior experience? So... Cubano, or anybody else with info on this, what's the real story? And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about where he's played, etc. Cause "I gots to know!" Edited March 10, 2009 by scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) From Baseball America when the Sox signed him: Miami-based agent Jaime Torres has confirmed that Cuban free-agent Alexei Ramirez has agreed to a contract with the Chicago White Sox. According to Torres, Ramirez will sign a four-year major league deal, but he would not divulge details of the contract. A White Sox organization official, contacted Friday evening by Baseball America, declined comment. Several outlets reported the deal was worth $4.75 million, though it was not clear how much was salary and how much was a signing bonus. Torres said Ramirez, who has played shortstop, third base and the outfield in his career in Cuba, had drawn interest from the White Sox as both an infielder and as an outfielder. ESPNDeportes.com reported Ramirez had individual workout sessions for the Athletics, Cubs, Indians, Mets, Red Sox, Reds and Yankees, as well as group workouts. Ramirez briefly played for Escogido in the Dominican Winter League last month, going 1-for-14 with four strikeouts. Ramirez played for Cuba’s 2006 World Baseball Classic team as a utility player, then followed up by leading Cuba’s Serie Nacional in home runs in 2006-2007 playing for Pinar Del Rio. http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=698 Edited March 10, 2009 by maggsmaggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowch Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I'd personally rather have him in the infield whether it's SS or 2B. I liked his occasional fancy plays. It's unfortunate our CF candidates suck for the most part in one way or another. That said, it probably would be best for the team with him in the outfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 02:53 PM) From Baseball America when the Sox signed him: http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=698 Yeah... that's what they 'say'... but when you look into the background of where he actually played (instead of what his agent said)... it looks like he was primarily an outfielder. Because SS is a premier position, it makes perfect sense his agent would play that position up because it adds to his value. So, I'm trying to filter out fact from fiction... because it seems pretty relevant to the Sox situation. Why are we committing SS to a guy who, it seems, has never been a full-time shortstop? I mean... let's put this in perspective. Is it possible that Chris Getz has played more games at SS in his career than Alexei? Again, I may be wrong... and if so somebody straighten me out on the facts. Edited March 10, 2009 by scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (scenario @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 02:38 PM) Yeah... that's what they 'say'... but when you look into the background of where he actually played (instead of what his agent said)... it looks like he was primarily an outfielder. Because SS is a premier position, it makes perfect sense his agent would play that position up because it adds to his value. So, I'm trying to filter out fact from fiction... because it seems pretty relevant to the Sox situation. Why are we committing SS to a guy who, it seems, has never been a full-time shortstop? I mean... let's put this in perspective. Is it possible that Chris Getz has played more games at SS in his career than Alexei? Again, I may be wrong... and if so somebody straighten me out on the facts. Why on numerous occasions does Alexei himself say, SS is his natural position? I remember reading a lot of articles from official White Sox website, and him saying that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (tommy @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 03:53 PM) Why on numerous occasions does Alexei himself say, SS is his natural position? I remember reading a lot of articles from official White Sox website, and him saying that. Because that's where the most money can be made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (tommy @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 03:53 PM) Why on numerous occasions does Alexei himself say, SS is his natural position? I remember reading a lot of articles from official White Sox website, and him saying that. That's what I'm trying to find out. Here's a quote from Peter Bjarkman's blog in September 2007 soon after Alexei left Cuba for the DR. "The departure of 2007 Cuban League home run champion Alexei Ramirez from his home island, rumored for more than a week, has now been confirmed with the announcement of a Thursday (September 20) press conference scheduled for Santo Domingo... An outfielder for Pinar del Rio during most of his first seven Cuban League seasons, Ramirez (pictured here celebrating a homer versus Panama in the 2006 Olympic Qualifier tournament) was only recently relocated to second base in the national team starting lineup for this past summer's Pan American Games in Rio de Janiero. The switch came in part as a result of the suspension last March of national team third baseman Michel Enriquez (Isla de la Juventud) and the consequent shifting of Yulieski Gourriel from second to third." Edited March 10, 2009 by scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Ozzie seems to think he can play shortstop. I think he might have some inkling of what it takes to be a ML shortstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (YASNY @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 04:05 PM) Ozzie seems to think he can play shortstop. I think he might have some inkling of what it takes to be a ML shortstop. I'm not challenging Alexei's athletic skills or Ozzie's judgement of what it takes to play SS... I'm just curious to know how much SS he's actually played... anywhere. Edited March 10, 2009 by scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (scenario @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 04:13 PM) I'm not challenging Alexei's athletic skills or Ozzie's judgement of what it takes to play SS... I'm just curious to know how much SS he's actually played... anywhere. It's a damn good question, I'm glad you brought this up because I was wondering myself, I just never remembered to bring it up when it mattered. I'm interested to see what some of our stat experts can find on this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (YASNY @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 09:05 PM) Ozzie seems to think he can play shortstop. I think he might have some inkling of what it takes to be a ML shortstop. I would think so too. Alexei wanted to play SS when he came on board, but we had Cabrera so he went to 2B and did a fine job. If SS is his natural positon if you will then I have no problem with him wanting to be back there. Plus Ozzie Guillen, who was a gold glove caliber SS in his career, thinks Alexei can play there. I must have missed something about why this has become an issue now?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Cowch @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 08:15 PM) I'd personally rather have him in the infield whether it's SS or 2B. I liked his occasional fancy plays. It's unfortunate our CF candidates suck for the most part in one way or another. That said, it probably would be best for the team with him in the outfield. This is Brian Anderson's break out year at CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 03:28 PM) I would think so too. Alexei wanted to play SS when he came on board, but we had Cabrera so he went to 2B and did a fine job. If SS is his natural positon if you will then I have no problem with him wanting to be back there. Plus Ozzie Guillen, who was a gold glove caliber SS in his career, thinks Alexei can play there. I must have missed something about why this has become an issue now?! I think the issue is, how can Alexei be a natural shortstop yet, he never played SS. Wikipedia (I realize its not credible source): In seven years[citation needed] of baseball in the Cuban National Series, Ramírez spent most of his time playing shortstop and outfield for Pinar del Rio. I tried looking for Pinar del Rio, roster/stats couldn't find anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsgdf_2 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Interesting... Baseball Prospectus says this about his time with Pinar del Rio: "He was considered at least an average defender at both shortstop and in the outfield, and his bat was thought to be good enough to play at either position. Though regularly a shortstop for Pinar del Rio, he spent a significant amount of time in the outfield as well, and played center for the Cuban entry in the WBC." http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8152 Edited March 10, 2009 by wsgdf_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Cubano @ Jun 2, 2008 -> 02:23 PM) Alexei is a finish product. He did not play 2B in Cuba except in emergency basis with the Cuban National team as a super utility. He played SS in his rookie season with his hometown team, the Pinar del Rio Green Sox. This is the same team as Jose Contreras, Danys Baez and Pedro Lazo who came in relief to shutdown the Dominican team in the WBC # 1. After his first season with the Green Sox, he moved to CF where he played must of the time. It is understandable that his has some learning to do in 2B and SS especially because in MLB runners try to break double play harder than in Japan and Cuba. We have a more courteous way of playing the game. That does not mean our way is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Remember, he was our starting CF on opening day last year. That's before he struggled at the plate allowing Quentin to steal his starting job with Swisher moving to CF. Once Uribe's struggles at the plate became an issue in May Alexei took his job at 2B. Alexei wasn't even supposed to be the starting 2B, he was the starting CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 04:28 PM) I must have missed something about why this has become an issue now?! I'm surprised there isn't more concern about this. Is there a more important position on the field (besides pitching of course) than SS? No. Alexei is a very good athlete. But I think we've been lead to believe he has alot of experience at the position. And now I get the impression he really hasn't played it very much and we could be watching him learn on the job. Think about it. He played a year of 2B in the Cuban League just before coming to the U.S. And how much learning on the job at 2B did we watch take place in 2008? Missed cutoffs, etc.? And we assumed it was because he hadn't played it before... which it turns out wasn't really true. So, what are we supposed to expect when we hand him the MOST important position on the field... where he might actually have less experience? Again... I'd love for someone to come along... tell me I'm wrong... and show me how much experience he has at SS. Please. But right now, I'm scratching my head, wondering why exactly we've all bought into the idea that he's moving from 2B to his 'natural position'... and that he's going to be as good or better defensively than he was last year. And meanwhile, the position he has the MOST experience at is CF, where we obviously need help. Help me. Edited March 10, 2009 by scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmywins1 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 According to UZR, Alexei had some serious range issues at 2B last year, his ability to play SS adequately has been concerning me all off-season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Jimmywins1 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 04:58 PM) According to UZR, Alexei had some serious range issues at 2B last year, his ability to play SS adequately has been concerning me all off-season. I wish more people here, and in the organization would realize this. then maybe Alexei would be looked at in CF a bit more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Jimmywins1 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 04:58 PM) According to UZR, Alexei had some serious range issues at 2B last year, his ability to play SS adequately has been concerning me all off-season. 14th out of 16 qualified 2B in UZR 14th out of 16 qualified 2B in RZR 15th out of 16 qualified 2B in RngR He wouldn't be the first player in big league history to mystify people with his occasional spectacular play (glove flips), hiding the fact that he's really not getting to as many balls as he should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 04:11 PM) 14th out of 16 qualified 2B in UZR 14th out of 16 qualified 2B in RZR 15th out of 16 qualified 2B in RngR He wouldn't be the first player in big league history to mystify people with his occasional spectacular play (glove flips), hiding the fact that he's really not getting to as many balls as he should. Maybe because he's a 'natural' shortstop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (tommy @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 05:13 PM) Maybe because he's a 'natural' shortstop? range at 2b and range at SS aren't much different, and making the switch to SS, his "natural" position likely won't help his range any Edited March 10, 2009 by daa84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (daa84 @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 04:16 PM) range at 2b and range at SS aren't much different, and making the switch to SS, his "natural" position likely won't help his range any Understand, but it seemed like you guys tried to say a decent 2B will only make a worse SS, we can't be sure of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 QUOTE (tommy @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 05:18 PM) Understand, but it seemed like you guys tried to say a decent 2B will only make a worse SS, we can't be sure of that. It's a much harder defensive position so logic and history (not a lot of bad 2B make good SS, can't think of any) would say a player isn't going to magically improve with the move to a more demanding position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmywins1 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (tommy @ Mar 10, 2009 -> 05:18 PM) Understand, but it seemed like you guys tried to say a decent 2B will only make a worse SS, we can't be sure of that. While that may be true, the stat suggests that he was awful at 2B, especially rangewise, which doesn't bode well for a switch to SS. Edited March 10, 2009 by Jimmywins1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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