What's Alexei's 'real' experience as a shortstop?

[scenario]

Understand, but it seemed like you guys tried to say a decent 2B will only make a worse SS, we can't be sure of that.

 

My concern is that we've been fed the company line that he is a natural shortstop whose struggles at 2B were do to a lack of experience at the position. And that we were supposed to be relatively impressed at how well he adjusted to this new position... which as it turns out he's played before. And now it seems possible he has even more experience at 2B than he does at SS?

 

IMO, athleticism is great. And if he plays SS for us, I really truly hope that he is great there. He seems to have the tools. But experience matters, especially in a position as important as SS.

 

So, I just want to know the truth. Does he have experience at SS or not? And, if so, how much?

Edited March 10, 2009 by scenario

[iamshack]

It's a much harder defensive position so logic and history (not a lot of bad 2B make good SS, can't think of any) would say a player isn't going to magically improve with the move to a more demanding position.

 

Does it matter which hand he is? Isn't it easier for a right hander to play ss than 2b? Just curious, I honestly think it should be, but don't know...

[Kalapse]

Does it matter which hand he is? Isn't it easier for a right hander to play ss than 2b? Just curious, I honestly think it should be, but don't know...

There are no left handed middle infielders anymore (not a single regular at either position last season). It's nearly impossible for a lefty to play 2B so only righties play second. It's incredibly difficult for a left handed fielder to play middle infield, the angles are all wrong so most get moved to the outfield or 1B (with the LARGE majority becoming pitchers).

 

SS is still a more difficult position for a righty, the long throw to first and amount of balls hit in the hole make it much more demanding.

 

Imagine being a lefty and fielding a ball hit in the hole at short, that throw to first in insanely awkward you either have to turn your whole body back to the left or spin around to your right. It's very inefficient.

[scenario]

There are no left handed middle infielders anymore (not a single regular at either position last season). It's nearly impossible for a lefty to play 2B so only righties play second. It's incredibly difficult for a left handed fielder to play middle infield, the angles are all wrong so most get moved to the outfield or 1B (with the LARGE majority becoming pitchers).

 

SS is still a more difficult position for a righty, the long throw to first and amount of balls hit in the hole make it much more demanding.

 

Imagine being a lefty and fielding a ball hit in the hole at short, that throw to first in insanely awkward you either have to turn your whole body back to the left or spin around to your right. It's very inefficient.

 

Funny thing is... I think it's more of a perception than it is a real problem. I'm left-handed and played alot of baseball growing up, including 3B. The positioning is different than it is for a right-hander, but I don't think it's more difficult. Seems like, IMO, all the people who think being lefty is more difficult... are right-handed.

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if that perception causes many young players to get moved into 'lefty positions' at a young age and that the lack of lefties in infield positions is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than it is a real problem.

 

(BTW - the Sox have a left-handed fielding 2B prospect who played for Great Falls this year.)

Edited March 10, 2009 by scenario

[iamshack]

There are no left handed middle infielders anymore (not a single regular at either position last season). It's nearly impossible for a lefty to play 2B so only righties play second. It's incredibly difficult for a left handed fielder to play middle infield, the angles are all wrong so most get moved to the outfield or 1B (with the LARGE majority becoming pitchers).

 

SS is still a more difficult position for a righty, the long throw to first and amount of balls hit in the hole make it much more demanding.

 

Imagine being a lefty and fielding a ball hit in the hole at short, that throw to first in insanely awkward you either have to turn your whole body back to the left or spin around to your right. It's very inefficient.

 

Yeah, I knew it would be easier to play ss as a rh, but wasn't sure if lefties played 2b....Chase Utley must throw rh but bat lh, eh?

 

Yep, just checked, he does.

 

 

[Kalapse]

Funny thing is... I think it's more of a perception than it is a real problem. I'm left-handed and played alot of baseball growing up, including 3B. The positioning is different than it is for a right-hander, but I don't think it's more difficult. Seems like, IMO, all the people who think it is... are right-handed.

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if that perception causes many young players to get moved into 'lefty positions' at a young age and that the lack of lefties in infield positions is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than it is a real problem.

Could be, as a righty I can't say for sure. I know in theory it should be a problem for a lefty and that's always been principle but I have no first hand experience to back it up. No lefties I've ever known even bothered with middle infield positions, they assumed they couldn't handle it and stuck to the outfield.

[scenario]

Could be, as a righty I can't say for sure. I know in theory it should be a problem for a lefty and that's always been principle but I have no first hand experience to back it up. No lefties I've ever known even bothered with middle infield positions, they assumed they couldn't handle it and stuck to the outfield.

 

If I were playing shortstop, I would just shade toward the hole and handle balls hit up the middle backhand. IMO, on balls hit up the middle a lefty has an advantage at SS, because you don't have to throw across your body like a righty does. So there would be fewer steps and a more natural quicker throw.

 

Again, harder I'm sure for a righty to picture, because it's the opposite of what they would do. But no reason a good athlete who positioned himself properly should be at a disadvantage because of angles. They would just be different.

Edited March 10, 2009 by scenario

[RockRaines]

Short Answer: Alexei should be in CF.

 

Becks can play our SS, Getz at 2B. BA as a backup defensively. This gives our team the best chance to win IMO.

 

1. Getz 2B

2. Beckham SS

3. Thome DH

4. Q LF

5. Dye RF

6. Konerko 1B

7. Alexei CF

8. AJP C

9. Fields 3B

 

 

Holy s*** thats a ton of power.

 

Only Getz and AJP pretty much wont hit 20 hr's

Edited March 10, 2009 by RockRaines

[RockRaines]

Does it matter which hand he is? Isn't it easier for a right hander to play ss than 2b? Just curious, I honestly think it should be, but don't know...

2B is easier for a righty because of the double play. That alone makes it a requirement.

[Cubano]

Thank you Kalapse. I like to correct myself. I already did in another post while back. I have the 2001 Cuban Baseball Guide. This was Alexei's second season. I do not have the 2000 guide. He played 2B/SS for the first two season as a bench player. He only played 56.2 innings with 949 fielding ave in 2001. Onel Olivera was the regular. Keep in mind that in Cuba, many players play different positions. Olivera was good defensively and probably Pinar del Rio did not have a good CF at the time and they saw Alexei as the best suited for it within the team. That year, Olivera played 600 innings in SS.

 

Alexei played super utility for the Cuban National team but later in his cuban career but he never played SS for Cuba. He played CF and 2B.

 

I already posted once. Be patience with Alexei in SS. He will have the same lapsus probaly while playing 2B. It is not his fault. He is 27 playing everyday positions he is not accostumed to play. He is a super athlete for sure.

 

 

 

[Kalapse]

If I were playing shortstop, I would just shade toward the hole and handle balls hit up the middle backhand. IMO, on balls hit up the middle a lefty has an advantage at SS, because you don't have to throw across your body like a righty does. So there would be fewer steps and a more natural quicker throw.

 

Again, harder I'm sure for a righty to picture, because it's the opposite of what they would do. But no reason a good athlete who positioned himself properly should be at a disadvantage because of angles. They would just be different.

So you'd have to shade towards the hole in order catch anything hit that way in front you? What about on players where you have to shade up the middle like holding a runner on 2nd w/ a lefty at the plate or when in double play position? Anything hit into the hole is going to be caught with all your moment taking you towards 3rd wouldn't the angle then become a problem?

 

And the awkward throw for a righty from a ball hit up the middle is shorter than the peg from the hole by a lefty, generally a righty should be able to employ a quick spin and still get the runner at first. There's a lot less time to waste for the lefty in the hole.

[Kalapse]

Thank you Kalapse. I like to correct myself. I already did in another post while back. I have the 2001 Cuban Baseball Guide. This was Alexei's second season. I do not have the 2000 guide. He played 2B/SS for the first two season as a bench player. He only played 56.2 innings with 949 fielding ave in 2001. Onel Olivera was the regular. Keep in mind that in Cuba, many players play different positions. Olivera was good defensively and probably Pinar del Rio did not have a good CF at the time and they saw Alexei as the best suited for it within the team. That year, Olivera played 600 innings in SS.

 

Alexei played super utility for the Cuban National team but later in his cuban career but he never played SS for Cuba. He played CF and 2B.

 

I already posted once. Be patience with Alexei in SS. He will have the same lapsus probaly while playing 2B. It is not his fault. He is 27 playing everyday positions he is not accostumed to play. He is a super athlete for sure.

So would you say he's better suited to play CF or SS based on his experience and ability at the 2 positions?

[Cubano]

I like to expand on this.

 

Seattle Yuniesky Betancourt used to play 2B for Villa Clara because he was block by Eduardo Paret in SS. Paret is the Cuban team SS in the WBC. He is close to retire. Betancourt is a SS in USA.

 

Angels Kendry Morales used to play RF. In USA, mostly 1B.

 

Yankees Juan Miranda used to play the outfield for Pinar. In USA, mostly 1B.

 

Free agent SS/2B Jose Iglesias used to play SS for Havana but 2B for the Cuban Junior team.

 

Braves Yunel Escobar was an utility but mostly played 3B for Industriales. In USA, SS.

 

Braves Barbaro Canizares used to be a catcher for Industriales. In USA, 1B.

[Cubano]

I have said before, CF.

 

How does he look like so far this ST?

 

 

[Cubano]

Alexei wants to play SS if he can choose a position. He has said it.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Cubano

[Kalapse]

How does he look like so far this ST?

Haven't seen enough of him to make a judgment either way.

[Kalapse]

Alexei wants to play SS if he can choose a position. He has said.

Which could easily be influenced by money. A competent SS with Alexei's offensive production is going to make more than a competent CF. I can't say that I blame him for this.

[Cubano]

Which could easily be influenced by money. A competent SS with Alexei's offensive production is going to make more than a competent CF. I can't say that I blame him for this.

 

 

I believe prior to the 2008 season, there were many CF in the market. Andrew Jones, Tori Hunter, Patterson and few others. There were 5 or 6 and then Alexei. There were not too many SS. An SS with offense is in high demand. Obviously, nobody knew Alexei but when he becomes a free agent, he should $$$$$$.

[caulfield12]

The problem I've seen so far from Ramirez isn't fielding, it's "flicking" the ball over to 1B without making a full, strong throw with his weight behind him.

 

Instead of showing off his arm like Valentin or Uribe would do, he's showing that he has the arm strength to throw flat-footed without a stride and still throw runners out pretty easily. This will have to be corrected, as it will end up in some batters being safe at first if he's not careful.

 

I'm not sure it's showboating or gamesmanship, it's just a "flashier" style of play that many Latin players pick up...maybe because they're fighting off so much competition, they try to do things differently (not quite as fundamentally) than Tom Emanski and Fred McGriff would prefer.

 

The question unanswered in this thread is the corollary. Why did everyone project Beckham from the very beginning to end up at 3B or 2B? It can't be simply due to the fact that it was assumed Ramirez would be the starting SS in 2009. There have to be other reasons.

 

Running Speed: He has average speed and is better once underway.

Base Running: He's got good instincts and is an excellent baserunner.

Arm Strength: His arm grades out as average to a tick above and plays fine from shortstop.

Fielding: He's a very natural defender, but he's fighting his size a bit at short and might profile better as a second baseman.

Range: He has above-average range.

Physical Description: Beckham is not an imposing figure, nor does he look particularly imposing at first glance.

Strengths: His bat. He's got outstanding hitting skills and more than a little power. He plays the game the right way.

 

Weaknesses: While he's fine at short for now, it might not be the best long-term defensive home for him.

Summary: At first glance, he doesn't stand out. But then you watch him play for a little and can't help but be impressed. Beckham has quality at-bats and some pretty good pop, which is surprising, considering his size. He's capable of being an excellent defender, but might be better suited at second as a pro. He's the kind of college infielder who should come off the board quickly. mlb.com

 

I've seen Beckham play once or twice at SS so far, and 2-3 times at second base, and I've listened to most of the WSCR feeds or opposing broadcasters.

 

I think Ramirez has a couple of things right away that stand out. Like Ray Durham, he's incredibly athletic tracking down bloopers, getting to balls you would never dream a player would get to (Durham, of course, wasn't a good 2B overall, especially in the 2nd half of his career). Ramirez has one of the best arms in the game from any position. You could argue their range is similar in terms of lateral movement, but I'll still give Ramirez the advantage just from what I've SEEN so far. Ramirez definitely is faster, but that's not the same thing as first-step quickness and lateral movement (see Crede, Joe for an example). All things being considered, Ramirez has the better arm, is a bit more athletic, is faster, and has, at worse...even range with Beckham. That's why you see Beckham at 2B or 3B and not Ramirez being moved around the diamond. Ozzie and Cora SHOULD have a better feel for this than any of us, both were middle infielders and know what it takes to be successful out there.

Edited March 11, 2009 by caulfield12

[SoxFan1]

range at 2b and range at SS aren't much different, and making the switch to SS, his "natural" position likely won't help his range any

I disagree. SS is, IMO, the hardest position in baseball. It's a totally different look from SS than it is 2B.

[caulfield12]

I believe prior to the 2008 season, there were many CF in the market. Andrew Jones, Tori Hunter, Patterson and few others. There were 5 or 6 and then Alexei. There were not too many SS. An SS with offense is in high demand. Obviously, nobody knew Alexei but when he becomes a free agent, he should $$$$$$.

 

Rowand and Fukudome were two of the other better-known CFers we looked at...and luckily didn't sign.

 

It will be interesting to see whether KW and JR will tear up Alexei's contract after this year or the next, assuming he does as well as he has. He's probably one of the best/cheapest FA signings in the last five years in terms of production versus contract dollars.

 

 

 

Ramirez aside, Sox' infield defense an uncertainty

By Scot Gregor | Daily Herald StaffContact writerPublished: 3/10/2009 12:21 PMSend To:

 

Editor's note: As the countdown continues toward the April 6 opener for the White Sox, Daily Herald Sports Writer Scot Gregor will offer his analysis of each position on the team and the key issues facing the club this season.

 

Q. As it stands today, are the White Sox stronger or weaker defensively than they were a year ago?

 

Gregor: The White Sox project new shortstop Alexei Ramirez as a Gold Glove caliber defender, but all in all they are going to be weaker.

 

Whoever replaces Ramirez at second base - Chris Getz, Jayson Nix or Brent Lillibridge - is going to pale in comparison with the glove. And the Sox have already conceded that new third baseman Josh Fields is not going to play the position nearly as well as the departed Joe Crede.

 

Lastly, don't forget about the loss of Juan Uribe, who was a defensive whiz at third base, shortstop and second base. The new center fielder, likely Jerry Owens or Brian Anderson, should be much better than the departed Nick Swisher, who is better suited at first base.

 

Q. Does Carlos Quentin have the tools to be the right fielder of the future, or is left field the right spot for him?

 

Gregor: If you can play one corner spot, you can usually play the other one, too.

 

Right field is tougher because of the angle of flyballs (UMMM...not to mention you need to have an above-average throwing arm too, Scot), but Quentin has the speed and arm to eventually replace Jermaine Dye if necessary. Don't expect Quentin to bring home a Gold Glove at either position, but he is good enough to get the job done. Even better for the Sox, he plays outfield with no fear.

 

Q. With a couple of lumbering guys in the corners, how crucial will center field be this season?

 

Gregor: Very. The AL Central is stacked with center fielders that cover a lot of ground (Grady Sizemore, Curtis Granderson, Carlos Gomez, Coco Crisp), so the White Sox are comparatively weak here.

 

Owens has shown an ability to run down balls in the gap, and Dewayne Wise also has good speed. Anderson isn't as mobile, but he is a solid defender and easily has the best throwing arm of the trio.

 

Q. Name the one everyday starter who you think is the most underrated defensively?

 

Gregor: First baseman Paul Konerko never gets much defensive praise, but you'll often see him on highlight reels.

 

Picking balls out of the dirt is a difficult skill to master, and few do it better than the Sox' captain.

 

Q. What does Josh Fields have to do to shush the comparisons to Joe Crede?

 

Gregor: Find another line of work. Fields can go through the entire 2009 season without making an error, and he'd still draw an unfavorable comparison to Crede. It's something Fields understands, and the comparison actually should help ease some of the pressure.

 

(Thanks for they hyperbole, Scot, but I'm still not sure why the comparison is "easing" some of the pressure? Only if he was projected to be the next Brooks Robinson and BETTER than Crede would there be pressure on him? Not sure I'm buying that line of reasoning.

 

Edited March 11, 2009 by caulfield12

[daa84]

I disagree. SS is, IMO, the hardest position in baseball. It's a totally different look from SS than it is 2B.

i can certainly buy that. But the point remains the same that Ramirez likely won't improve by moving to SS.

 

in response to the gregor article..man he is clueless. All 3 of the 2b base options would likely be an improvement defensively. Newspapers are so antiquated, but I guess they have to consider who their main revenue comes from (those who read the print versions).

Edited March 11, 2009 by daa84

[TLAK]

There are no left handed middle infielders anymore (not a single regular at either position last season). It's nearly impossible for a lefty to play 2B so only righties play second. It's incredibly difficult for a left handed fielder to play middle infield, the angles are all wrong so most get moved to the outfield or 1B (with the LARGE majority becoming pitchers).

 

SS is still a more difficult position for a righty, the long throw to first and amount of balls hit in the hole make it much more demanding.

 

Imagine being a lefty and fielding a ball hit in the hole at short, that throw to first in insanely awkward you either have to turn your whole body back to the left or spin around to your right. It's very inefficient.

Last 10 left hand throwing IF in MLB history:

 

throws yearID teamID POS Player

L 1997 CHA 3B Mario Valdez

L 1986 NYA 3B Don Mattingly

L 1985 MON 3B Terry Francona

L 1984 CHA 3B Mike Squires

L 1983 CHA 3B Mike Squires

L 1983 NYA 2B Don Mattingly

L 1973 OAK 2B Gonzalo Marquez

L 1970 CLE 2B Sam McDowell

L 1958 CIN 2B George Crowe

L 1934 NYA SS Lou Gehrig

 

Mattingly, Squires and Marquez are the only ones to actually start games.

[Kalapse]

Last 10 left hand throwing IF in MLB history:

 

throws yearID teamID POS Player

L 1997 CHA 3B Mario Valdez

L 1986 NYA 3B Don Mattingly

L 1985 MON 3B Terry Francona

L 1984 CHA 3B Mike Squires

L 1983 CHA 3B Mike Squires

L 1983 NYA 2B Don Mattingly

L 1973 OAK 2B Gonzalo Marquez

L 1970 CLE 2B Sam McDowell

L 1958 CIN 2B George Crowe

L 1934 NYA SS Lou Gehrig

 

Mattingly, Squires and Marquez are the only ones to actually start games.

I was talking mostly about middle infielders so I'll forget the 3B. There was a grand total of something like 2 INN played at 2B and SS by Mattingly, Marquez, McDowell, Crowe and Gehrig and not a one of them recorded an assist. So never in the history of the game has a left handed thrower recorded an assist from a middle infield position? That's awesome.

[TLAK]

I was talking mostly about middle infielders so I'll forget the 3B. There was a grand total of something like 2 INN played at 2B and SS by Mattingly, Marquez, McDowell, Crowe and Gehrig and not a one of them recorded an assist. So never in the history of the game has a left handed thrower recorded an assist from a middle infield position? That's awesome.

Jim Bottomley recorded an assist at 2B in 1924. In the infancy of the game they were more common but no left thrower has played more than a handful of games at SS-2B since the 1890s.