Guillen considering Wise at leadoff

caulfield12 · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (Felix @ Mar 12, 2009 -> 10:59 PM)

BA, Owens, and Wise are all below average offensive players and there is no significant difference between them. So why wouldn't we start the one that has by far the best defense? It's mind boggling.

Until this point, Ozzie insists he wants Getz at the bottom of the line-up for his rookie season.

Who are you going to hit leadoff if Anderson is the best defender, which unquestionably he is...?

We do know that he's been willing to try Beckham at leadoff in the ST games so far...so he's more open to that idea than Betz, but that's just our speculation and reading into comments of KW and Guillen to the media.

caulfield12 · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (wilmot825 @ Mar 12, 2009 -> 11:10 PM)

Wise at leadoff...ughhhhhhhhhhhhh....We went this path in the playoffs, and that worked out swell. (please note the sarcasim)

It is staring them in the face, Gordon Beckham playing 2nd and leading off duh.

Wise was the LEAST of our problems offensively in the playoffs last year, however, that's not a good reason to hit him leadoff. He almost single-handedly willed the White Sox to a win in one game if our pitching would actually have manned up in that series.

If Anderson can't beat out Wise, trade Anderson. Ummm...for who/what? All three of them together in a package couldn't get up a Top 10-15 prospect from another team.

Edited March 13, 2009 by caulfield12

Swingandalongonetoleft · March 13, 2009

I'd love to see Anderson cemented in CF, but at this point, I'll be happy to see him make the team even if Wise is the CF. The problem is, Wise is the kind of guy you can pull off the bench for some pinch hit offense. Anderson is the kind of guy you use when you need defense. Actually, that pretty much solves the CF mystery... Wise/Anderson platoon.

caulfield12 · March 13, 2009

We have to play SOMEONE, but it certainly doesn't SOLVE anything.

Wanne · March 13, 2009

Did Ozzie just really say "bro"?...........LOL. Seriously though. We're damned either way.

Anderson is the best CF we have.

We need a leadoff guy.

Wise is a better bench guy.

Owens just isn't good.

We need a leadoff guy.

Honestly...if Getz gets the nod at 2B...I'd rather have him lead off and stick Lexi in the 2-hole. Hopefully Fields can pick up some slack of the pop at the bottom of the order vacated by Lexi. And let BA do his stuff on the field without looking over his shoulder every at bat. If BA just wiffs completely...then look at something different. Just my 2¢.

scenario · March 13, 2009

Wise starting the year in CF and leading off does not mean he will stay in the lineup if he plays poorly.

It only means that the Sox would bring Wise north with the team and cut Owens loose.

And then if Wise doesn't do the job early in the year, the Sox will elevate someone else to leadoff.

Kalapse · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (scenario @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 12:30 AM)

Wise starting the year in CF and leading off does not mean he will stay in the lineup if he plays poorly.

It only means that the Sox would bring Wise north with the team and cut Owens loose.

And then if Wise doesn't do the job early in the year, the Sox will elevate someone else to leadoff.

Eh. Why put someone in a role in which they're bound to fail? That guy who's second in line for the leadoff spot, likely Getz or Beckham, well he's more qualified for the job RIGHT NOW. That's why it's silly. Sure you can always take the job away from him in May when he's getting on base at a .280 clip but why potentially sacrifice games when you don't have to?

If Anderson were 4 years older, a little faster and 7 for 17 on the Spring would we really be talking about him as a potential leadoff hitter? Wise and Anderson are VERY similar hitters.

NorthSideSox72 · March 13, 2009

Anderson is the best choice of the three, no doubt in my mind.

But as for Owens or Wise... Owens will not only give you a higher OBP, but a substantially higher one - probably 50 points or so higher, judging by their career numbers in both the majors and the minors. Also, while Owens has a lousy arm, he's better defensively in the OF than Wise in every other aspect. If I have to have one of those two in the outfield, defensively, I'll take Owens every time. And as was pointed out earlier, Wise's career SB% is similar to Owens'.

The only thing Wise has over Owens is the ability to hit 10 or 12 HR, when Owens will hit 2 or 3.

And, despite the fact that Owens is 27, he still has only one significant major league season under his belt and is still learning. Wise has played 6 seasons in the majors and proven he sucks. So if either one is going to improve, its likely to be Owens.

Anderson >>>>> Owens > Wise.

Heads22 · March 13, 2009

I would like Mr. Christopher Getz at leadoff.

Please.

Thank you.

NorthSideSox72 · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 08:15 AM)

I would like Mr. Christopher Getz at leadoff.

Please.

Thank you.

Agreed.

Getz, 2B

Lexi, SS

TCQ, LF

Jim, DH

Dye, RF

PK, 1B

AJ, C

Fields, 3B

BA, CF

That would be just fine.

caulfield12 · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 08:15 AM)

I would like Mr. Christopher Getz at leadoff.

Please.

Thank you.

It's going to take one more week of Owens struggling like he has before 1) you start to hear more about the options of Getz or maybe Lillibridge at the top of the order and 2) KW scouring the waiver wire/trade winds for a better option.

If we can get a combined .740-.750 OPS out of any combination of players in CF, we'll be just fine. Anything worse and you have to make a trade or move Ramirez out there and bring Beckham up from the minors to compensate.

We're not going to have the luxury of 3-4 months carrying a bat like Brian Anderson demonstrated in 2006. We can't afford to get buried like in 2007 or the Tigers/Indians last year.

All the mathematics formulas I ran showed we don't want a line-up with AJ, Alexei or Fields anywhere near the top of the batting order. We might be able to get by with Getz, but the best possible choice to score the most runs is Beckham (see the thread I started). In a perfectly balanced MLB line-up that scores 900 or more runs, Getz is hitting 9th.

Edited March 13, 2009 by caulfield12

Dick Allen · March 13, 2009

Compared to Wise and Owens, Coco Crisp sounds like Rickey Henderson. I wish KW had Coco. The last guy the Sox developed who could lead off was Ray Durham. Drafted by Larry Himes, a draft genius, although he was very lucky too. Before Ray, I can't think of anyone halfway decent the White Sox brought up.

caulfield12 · March 13, 2009

Dick Allen, coming into the offseason, I targeted CoCo Crisp and Casey Blake...Blake would be superfluous now with potentially 3 better players in Fields, Viciedo and Betemit (at least hitting-wise), but CoCo Crisp was a player that KW obviously passed on, along with Willy Taveras and many others.

Mike Cameron is the only name that comes to mind...although he was certainly a flawed leadoff hitter in the Chris Young mold in terms of OBP and strikeout ratio.

Sosa, when he originally came up as The Panther, was leading off, too, if you can remember back to the skinny Sosa days.

Jeff Abbott didn't last long, either.

Ironic, but Kenny Williams was also once considered a top prospect at leadoff and potential 30/30 guy, lol.

Lance Johnson, but he was incubated in the Cardinals' system.

Edited March 13, 2009 by caulfield12

Melissa1334 · March 13, 2009

i dont get whats so hard about getting a cfer. even willy t seems great compared to those 3! but i agree with kalapse, how can u say wise deserves it and has put his 12 minor league seasons behind him, ITS BEEN 17 AB'S! :angry:

Dick Allen · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (Melissa1334 @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 09:49 AM)

i dont get whats so hard about getting a cfer. even willy t seems great compared to those 3! but i agree with kalapse, how can u say wise deserves it and has put his 12 minor league seasons behind him, ITS BEEN 17 AB'S! :angry:

It happens every spring, but it is what makes the game so great. This spring is even more deceiving as it is longer and a lot of guys are at WBC, so you are playing against guys who will never make it or are pretty far away, and I think the good pitchers are pulling back the reigns a little bit and the guys fighting for their major league lives who have been working all winter, tend to look better. I think OBP is very important for a leadoff guy. Maybe they should change it to "out percentage", instead of a .310 OBP they would have a .690 out percentage. Its hard to imagine a team could be successful when the guys coming to bat most make a higher percentage of outs than the guys who bat far lower.

caulfield12 · March 13, 2009

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/Lin...475&Model=0

Willy Taveras in the line-up with Beckham and Ramirez at SS and 2B only gives us 5.516 RPG.

Better options are the BA/Owens platoon with Beckham and Ramirez up the middle OR Ramirez in CF, Beckham at SS and a Getz/Nix platoon at 2B.

With Covelli "CoCo" Crisp, you'll get 5.555 RPG. Both models show the best place for Crisp and Taveras is the 9 hole in the order.

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/Lin...475&Model=0

Melissa1334 · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 10:04 AM)

It happens every spring, but it is what makes the game so great. This spring is even more deceiving as it is longer and a lot of guys are at WBC, so you are playing against guys who will never make it or are pretty far away, and I think the good pitchers are pulling back the reigns a little bit and the guys fighting for their major league lives who have been working all winter, tend to look better. I think OBP is very important for a leadoff guy. Maybe they should change it to "out percentage", instead of a .310 OBP they would have a .690 out percentage. Its hard to imagine a team could be successful when the guys coming to bat most make a higher percentage of outs than the guys who bat far lower.

i dunno. all im trying to say is that wise is what he is. he is nothing more than a aa/aaa player(i guess a back up). and he showed last year that he cant play every day. he is not the answer. like you said, for the most part, ST numbers mean nothing. and no one deserves to win a job bcuz of 20-40 good ST ab's.

Dick Allen · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (Melissa1334 @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 10:08 AM)

i dunno. all im trying to say is that wise is what he is. he is nothing more than a aa/aaa player(i guess a back up). and he showed last year that he cant play every day. he is not the answer. like you said, for the most part, ST numbers mean nothing. and no one deserves to win a job bcuz of 20-40 good ST ab's.

I think the ironic thing is Ozzie said in 2007 "don't believe what you see in September when you are out of contention and spring training", yet it seems the White Sox are moving more towards spring training competition to earn jobs. I suppose you almost have to with younger guys, but to base things almost entirely on spring training results doesn't seem like a good plan.

Melissa1334 · March 13, 2009

btw, i dont like the idea at all of thome batting behind cq. thome cant hit lefties and late in the game, theyll just pitch around cq to get to thome. he doesnt do well in the 7th inning on. id go with:

cq

dye

thome

pk

Edited March 13, 2009 by Melissa1334

caulfield12 · March 13, 2009

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/Lin...475&Model=0

Even with Ichiro Suzuki as the leadoff hitter, we only score 5.686 RPG (921 runs in a season).

We'll be just fine with BA and Wise/Owens as a platoon...along with Beckham, Ramirez, Getz/Nix (platoon) and Fields/Betemit (modified platoon).

Edited March 13, 2009 by caulfield12

caulfield12 · March 13, 2009

WORST POSSIBLE WS LINE-UPS (notice two of the most popular choices for #2 hitter right now, along with Mr. Getz???)

5.269 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Gordon Beckham Paul Konerko Alexei Ramirez Ichiro Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.270 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Jim Thome Paul Konerko Alexei Ramirez Ichiro Gordon Beckham Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.273 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Alexei Ramirez Paul Konerko Gordon Beckham Ichiro Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.275 Alexei Ramirez AJ Pierzynski Gordon Beckham Paul Konerko Josh Fields Ichiro Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.276 Alexei Ramirez AJ Pierzynski Jim Thome Paul Konerko Josh Fields Ichiro Gordon Beckham Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.276 Josh Fields Alexei Ramirez Gordon Beckham Paul Konerko AJ Pierzynski Ichiro Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.277 Josh Fields Alexei Ramirez Jim Thome Paul Konerko AJ Pierzynski Ichiro Gordon Beckham Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.277 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Gordon Beckham Paul Konerko Alexei Ramirez Jim Thome Ichiro Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

Back to reality with BA out there instead of Ichiro (notice some trends???)

Runs per Game

5.170 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Alexei Ramirez Paul Konerko Brian Anderson Jim Thome Gordon Beckham Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.170 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Alexei Ramirez Paul Konerko Brian Anderson Gordon Beckham Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.171 Josh Fields Brian Anderson Alexei Ramirez Paul Konerko AJ Pierzynski Jim Thome Gordon Beckham Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.171 Josh Fields Brian Anderson Alexei Ramirez Paul Konerko AJ Pierzynski Gordon Beckham Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.178 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Gordon Beckham Brian Anderson Alexei Ramirez Paul Konerko Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.179 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Jim Thome Brian Anderson Alexei Ramirez Paul Konerko Gordon Beckham Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.180 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Gordon Beckham Brian Anderson Alexei Ramirez Jim Thome Paul Konerko Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.180 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Alexei Ramirez Brian Anderson Paul Konerko Jim Thome Gordon Beckham Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.180 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Alexei Ramirez Brian Anderson Paul Konerko Gordon Beckham Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.180 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Brian Anderson Paul Konerko Alexei Ramirez Jim Thome Gordon Beckham Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.180 Josh Fields AJ Pierzynski Brian Anderson Paul Konerko Alexei Ramirez Gordon Beckham Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

5.181 Josh Fields Brian Anderson Gordon Beckham AJ Pierzynski Alexei Ramirez Paul Konerko Jim Thome Carlos Quentin Jermaine Dye

Edited March 13, 2009 by caulfield12

ScottyDo · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (Melissa1334 @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 11:08 AM)

i dunno. all im trying to say is that wise is what he is. he is nothing more than a aa/aaa player(i guess a back up). and he showed last year that he cant play every day. he is not the answer. like you said, for the most part, ST numbers mean nothing. and no one deserves to win a job bcuz of 20-40 good ST ab's.

I don't think anyone's accusing Wise of being The Answer. Hopefully, nobody's accusing BA of that either.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 11:13 AM)

I think the ironic thing is Ozzie said in 2007 "don't believe what you see in September when you are out of contention and spring training", yet it seems the White Sox are moving more towards spring training competition to earn jobs. I suppose you almost have to with younger guys, but to base things almost entirely on spring training results doesn't seem like a good plan.

I really doubt that's what they're doing. Their track record, in fact, pretty much proves that they're not. They go based on what they see and what they've seen. Numbers don't factor in that much and neither do streaks. Doesn't mean they won't use one player's success to spur on another, so the rhetoric may lead you to believe they'll pick whoever has the best ST numbers.

Melissa1334 · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 10:47 AM)

I don't think anyone's accusing Wise of being The Answer. Hopefully, nobody's accusing BA of that either.

I really doubt that's what they're doing. Their track record, in fact, pretty much proves that they're not. They go based on what they see and what they've seen. Numbers don't factor in that much and neither do streaks. Doesn't mean they won't use one player's success to spur on another, so the rhetoric may lead you to believe they'll pick whoever has the best ST numbers.

ok but wise hasnt ever been good. hes never had one good stretch in which hes played good. just a few games. so i dont get what it is the sox see.

shipps · March 13, 2009

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 13, 2009 -> 10:26 AM)