Padres versus White Sox ST Game

[Kalapse]

Ummm...we got Loaiza and Jenks for basically nothing. Or look at someone like Carlos Pena. Just because Jayson Nix had no value to other teams last year doesn't mean he has no future value for infinity.

 

Nix has been out for one week with a strained quad and was 5/7 before today. I don't know how you can say Beckham clearly outplayed him.

 

Egbert hasn't pitched CLEARLY better than Marquez, Poreda and Richard...his sample size is too small to say he's the best option.

So what are you saying about Nix, exactly? Do you want to start him at 2B in the majors to build his trade value? Because that's where he's going to build his value, by proving himself at the major league level over a sustained period of time. The fact that Beckham has stayed healthy and mashed puts him well ahead of Nix, injury isn't an excuse. And besides, we're going based on spring performance here, if he's hurt in March that must mean he'll be hurt in May. I'm not picking my starting 2B based on building trade value, I'm taking the guy with the near 1.100 OPS over 22 AB!!

 

As for Egbert, as of right now he's performed the best over the most innings out of all the guys fighting for the potential 7th bullpen spot. If the season started today and we're going purely by spring numbers you'd have to take either Marquez or Egbert and Egbert has done it over more IP. How does his 8 IP sample size compare with Wise's 17 AB or Lillibridge's 26?

[caulfield12]

It's spring f***ing training. Balta is right about the quality of pitcher, you tried to argue about clutch situations which don't exist in exhibition games. He had 27 AB in C&L situations last year and 87 in games when there was a 1 R margin and he hit .272/.314/.494/.808. What's the spring sample size looking like?

 

 

8/27 against hand-picked/favorable lefties for BA to feast on means about as much to me as BA's homer today in garbage time or his homer against Australia.

 

 

[RockRaines]

Ah, so you are considering the long man spot as the "back of the bullpen?"

[Dick Allen]

How many times do we hear that BA hit two homers off Felix Hernandez...as if they means he has a lifetime get of jail free card???

 

Probably about 1/10th of the time you hear BA's 2006 performance means he cannot play well at the major league level.

 

These games mean nothing. I don't know how many guys tell management, " I hit .400 in spring training, I need a raise" I would imagine its zero. Right now, even the good pitchers don't want to be peaking. With Beckham, its just a matter of time. Who really knows if he's ready right now? But if his mechanics are good, and he appears ready, they probably will give him a shot. He's going to be at 2B or SS real soon anyway. What's interesting about Beckham is he changed his swing a little bit in the Fall League and changed the opinion of the scouts who thought he wouldn't amount to much. He may turn out to be one of the top 2 or 3 players from that draft.

 

[Kalapse]

Ah, so you are considering the long man spot as the "back of the bullpen?"

The 7th spot doesn't have to be a long man, right now Carrasco and Richard have jobs with the big club and either could easily give you 3 or 4 innings if necessary.

[RockRaines]

Probably about 1/10th of the time you hear BA's 2006 performance means he cannot play well at the major league level.

 

These games mean nothing. I don't know how many guys tell management, " I hit .400 in spring training, I need a raise" I would imagine its zero. Right now, even the good pitchers don't want to be peaking. With Beckham, its just a matter of time. Who really knows if he's ready right now? But if his mechanics are good, and he appears ready, they probably will give him a shot. He's going to be at 2B or SS real soon anyway. What's interesting about Beckham is he changed his swing a little bit in the Fall League and changed the opinion of the scouts who thought he wouldn't amount to much. He may turn out to be one of the top 2 or 3 players from that draft.

He's added a small hitch/load to his swing, kinda Sheffield-esque. I'm actually of the opinion this hurts his already solid swing.

[knightni]

Was this thread locked for a reason?

[SoxAce]

If the season started today and we're going purely by spring numbers you'd have to take either Marquez or Egbert and Egbert has done it over more IP

 

If that's the case, I'll take the guy who has STARTED the games in spring training against guys who are MLB HITTERS over a guy who basically has been pitching in the last couple innings against garbage A/AA/AAA hitters.

[Kalapse]

Was this thread locked for a reason?

Not that I know of.

[caulfield12]

Nix is the best defender on the team...we've yet to see how Beckham will do at 2B over an extended period of time. He's looked better at SS so far...or are you arguing he should be beating out Alexei Ramirez, because he's clearly outplayed everyone on our team offensively??

 

That's the same argument as Lillibridge over Anderson...if we stuck Brent out there for the next 3 weeks about two to three games per week and he "looked good."

 

I have no problem with taking Egbert, fine...up to Ozzie and Cooper. Why haven't we heard it mentioned yet. It's a crapshoot, he could actually be better than Carasco, who knows. I would question why his name hasn't been mentioned once by a single beat or national baseball writer as part of the White Sox conversation. As someone mentioned earlier, Marquez and Richard have had to pitch against the BETTER hitters in most line-ups at the beginning of games. I don't have all the boxes to look at how many "good" MLB hitters Egbert's actually gotten out that would make me bat an eye.

 

Owens is quickly playing his way out of this organization and showing no signs of coming out of it.

 

Cole Armstrong with a bomb...wow, I guess I should "jinx" the offense every game like this...unfortunately I'll be gone for a week to the Philippines and out of internet access when the games are on so I won't be able to start another ST game thread.

Edited March 13, 2009 by caulfield12

[Kalapse]

If that's the case, I'll take the guy who has STARTED the games in spring training against guys who are MLB HITTERS over a guy who basically has been pitching in the last couple innings against garbage A/AA/AAA hitters.

So Egbert's start doesn't count?

[caulfield12]

Who did Egbert start against? Australia? I can't remember...and the line-up he faced that day.

 

We do know that Marquez and Richard have started all of their games against the best possible hitters.

[Kalapse]

Nix is the best defender on the team...we've yet to see how Beckham will do at 2B over an extended period of time. He's looked better at SS so far...or are you arguing he should be beating out Alexei Ramirez, because he's clearly outplayed everyone on our team offensively??

 

That's the same argument as Lillibridge over Anderson...if we stuck Brent out there for the next 3 weeks about two to three games per week and he "looked good."

I'm not talking about Alexei, just spots that are considered "open" competitions and subject to the "forget past performance and defensive ability/experience we're going purely based on stats here" rule. No s*** it's the same thing as the Lillibridge/Anderson argument, that's what I've been saying all along. People are awarding positions based purely on spring performance, that's the only way you can select Lillibridge over Anderson as the second CF (which Balta did). If we're ignoring defense, experience and past performance then Gordon Beckham, Josh Kroeger and Jack Egbert need to be near the front of the line for the 2B/CF and 12th pitcher jobs.

[SoxAce]

So Egbert's start doesn't count?

 

Damn those good hitters in "B" games.

[Kalapse]

Who did Egbert start against? Australia? I can't remember...and the line-up he faced that day.

I have no idea, I know it wasn't Australia because the stats for that game didn't count otherwise Beckham's OPS would be over 1.300 right now as opposed to the high 1.200's.

[Kalapse]

Damn those good hitters in "B" games.

Do "B" game stats count because I don't think they do.

[caulfield12]

Nope...only split squad games.

 

That takes away Wise's homer and triple (against Dodgers Monday morning) and a Chris Stewart homer, among other things...but that is another reason why "Wayne" Wise's name has been coming up more often recently with Ozzie and KW.

[SoxAce]

Do "B" game stats count because I don't think they do.

 

Your actually right, (LAD, though he allowed baserunners in every inning) and yes, I do agree with you on Egbert (though he's the only guy I agree with you about in this game thread) It should be either him or Marquez, and I'm shocked that the sox didn't pick up on this sooner.

 

That takes away Wise's homer and triple (against Dodgers Monday morning) and a Chris Stewart homer, among other things...but that is another reason why "Wayne" Wise's name has been coming up more often recently with Ozzie and KW.

 

 

Good point. Wise's numbers would be even more ridiculous.

 

[Kalapse]

Your actually right, (LAD, though he allowed baserunners in every inning) and yes, I do agree with you on Egbert (though he's the only guy I agree with you about in this game thread) It should be either him or Marquez, and I'm shocked that the sox didn't pick up on this sooner.

I don't care about Egbert, there aren't a lot of choices for the 7th spot in the pen so he might be a decent option as a long man, I don't know. I was arguing the other side to prove a point. You can't just award jobs to players because they "deserve" it based on their spring stats while ignoring their defensive ability, experience at the position and past success/track record during meaningful games. That was my argument.

[Kalapse]

Good point. Wise's numbers would be even more ridiculous.

Anderson actually homered in the exhibition against Australia, that'd be a nice jolt to his Spring SLG%.

[bighurt4life]

Not sure why but nobody has mentioned Josh Kroeger as a possibility at CF. He has lots of talent and has played well so far this year. He's also a lefty so he could platoon with either Lilli of Anderson. Not sure what his defense looks like but it couldn't be any worse than Wise or Owens. I'd much rather give him a shot over those two. He's only 25 or 26 so he still has a chance to blossom unlike Wise/Owens who are both about 30 and clearly don't really have that much to offer as anything other than situational players.

[Kalapse]

Not sure why but nobody has mentioned Josh Kroeger as a possibility at CF. He has lots of talent and has played well so far this year. He's also a lefty so he could platoon with either Lilli of Anderson. Not sure what his defense looks like but it couldn't be any worse than Wise or Owens. I'd much rather give him a shot over those two. He's only 25 or 26 so he still has a chance to blossom unlike Wise/Owens who are both about 30 and clearly don't really have that much to offer as anything other than situational players.

It could and it might just be considering he hasn't gotten a single inning out there this spring and Bill Melton (not the best source of information to say the least) keeps comparing him to Ross Gload. The fact that he's played more 1B than CF tells me the Sox may see him as more of a corner OF/1B type. A Lillibridge/Kroeger CF would be interesting though with 207 total chances in centerfield between them since 2005.

[bighurt4life]

It could and it might just be considering he hasn't gotten a single inning out there this spring and Bill Melton (not the best source of information to say the least) keeps comparing him to Ross Gload. The fact that he's played more 1B than CF tells me the Sox may see him as more of a corner OF/1B type. A Lillibridge/Kroeger CF would be interesting though with 207 total chances in centerfield between them since 2005.

 

What I've read is that he has slightly above average speed so he is passable in CF. He has also played CF in the minors though not much. If he plays a corner OF that would lead one to believe that he has at least an average arm. I wouldn't mind seeing him out there over Wise/Owens. He has potential and we already know what those other two bring to the table, their poor route running really negates their speed in CF, if Kroeger can get good reads on the ball I'm sure he'd perform as well as those two with much more hitting potential.

Edited March 13, 2009 by bighurt4life

[SoxAce]

You can't just award jobs to players because they "deserve" it based on their spring stats while ignoring their defensive ability, experience at the position and past success/track record during meaningful games. That was my argument.

 

That's understandable, but that doesn't always apply, especially with this organization. The "screw you job" in spring training (IE Masset winning over the better Wassermann last season, BA losing the CF job despite hitting like .500, Josh Fields going back to AAA after outperforming Crede in spring training/suppose to be traded etc..) has been if effect for a while with us and IMO, I can honestly say that I can see the same thing again this time around also with our guys. That was my point not to mention the consistant Wise hating. I understand Owens, but DeWeezy doesn't need this much of it.

[Balta1701]

That's understandable, but that doesn't always apply, especially with this organization. The "screw you job" in spring training (IE Masset winning over the better Wassermann last season, BA losing the CF job despite hitting like .500, Josh Fields going back to AAA after outperforming Crede in spring training/suppose to be traded etc..) has been if effect for a while with us and IMO, I can honestly say that I can see the same thing again this time around also with our guys. That was my point not to mention the consistant Wise hating. I understand Owens, but DeWeezy doesn't need this much of it.

So far this spring seems to be the closest we've come to not having any screw-jobs happening. Anderson and Owens are getting their fair shot to earn the CF job. They're each getting a lot of ab's. They're each sucking. Dwayne Wise, Chris Getz, Brent Lillibridge are all massively outplaying them right now. Which is the whole reason we're having this discussion. If Anderson and Owens were actually hitting and giving this team what we were hoping they'd do in the best-case scenario, the discussion would already be over.