Why is BA getting a look at leadoff?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I still haven't seen a convincing argument as to why this is the case.

It's because he had a couple big hits last year and nothing more.

 

The guy is a career .259/.309/.422 hitter throughout his minor league career, which spans 12 seasons, 935 games, and 3,555 AB.

 

To put it in perspective, Joe Borchard was a .275/.351/.481 hitter over 8 minor league seasons covering 664 games and 2,482 AB. Joe Borchard has hit .205/.284/.352 over the course of his MLB career, which is very similar to Wise's .214/.254/.385 MLB career line. In fact, a good debate - if anyone cared enough - would be who would be the better full-time Major League hitter over a full season, Joe Borchard or Dewayne Wise?

 

To put it in perspective, Warren Newson was a career .301/.425/.482 hitter over 13 minor league seasons covering 902 games and 2,912 AB. Warren Newsom's .250/.374/.401 MLB line blows Wise's .214/.254/.385 MLB career line out of the water, and it is even better than Wise's minor league career line.

 

To put it in perspective, Dewayne Wise is 5 seasons away from equaling Ernie Young's minor league career in terms of length (17 seasons, 1712 games, 5,999 AB), and Ernie Young was a better hitter: .279 AVG, .502 SLG (OBP missing from Baseball Cube's site, but from a quick glance he would appear to average out into the .360+ range).

 

Wise is a veteran that brings some things like speed and a little bit of pop to the table when we're talking about well-managed, VERY LIMITED playing time. There is a mountain of evidence that shows he shouldn't even be leading off for the Charlotte Knights, let alone the Chicago White Sox. Off the bench as a pinch hitter and a pinch runner I'm fine with it. Are there better options out there? Yes, but I'd rather see extra money go to the draft and international free agency, not the bench, so I'm happy. That should pretty much end the conversation though.

 

Anderson is not in any way a great hitter, or even a good hitter, but he does play some great defense. While Brian will hurt you at the plate, if he's batting 9th then he'll get the fewest number of AB on any given night. Brian's defense combined with a .220 average will help this team a lot more than even a .300+ hitting s***ty outfielder would, and aside from the "s***ty outfielder" part, that is nothing that either Wise or Owens can accomplish.

 

The only team in baseball that would consider guys like Owens and Wise starting CFers is this one. The only managers in baseball that would consider guys like Owens and Wise starting CFers are Ozzie and Dusty Baker. Anderson should be the everyday guy until he either shows he can hit enough to stick there longterm or someone better is brought in to replace him. He should NEVER lead off however. That's just ridiculously f***ing stupid.

[Princess Dye]

Uribe 10 times out of 10 vs. Wise.

 

In that same postseason when they were teammates, Uribe was .167 av, .167 OBP. Far below Wise's #s.

 

Obviously these are tiny sample sizes. It's just my view that the BA side of this overvalues defensive CF. We're going to be the type of team that needs to hit.

 

I think Wise's .248/.293 from last year made a difference over BA's .232/.272. He's more of a 'when he hits em' type. With guys like Thome and Fields, I just feel we need an extra batter who can hit in situations.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Princess Dye

[lostfan]

In that same postseason when they were teammates, Uribe was .167 av, .167 OBP. Far below Wise's #s.

 

Obviously these are tiny sample sizes. It's just my view that the BA side of this overvalues defensive CF. We're going to be the type of team that needs to hit.

 

I think Wise's .248/.293 from last year made a difference over BA's .232/.272. He's more of a 'when he hits em' type. With guys like Thome and Fields, I just feel we need an extra batter who can hit in situations.

Anderson can't hit but neither can Wise. At all. So the whole thing is moot and the only thing left to talk about is defense which BA owns Wise thoroughly in.

[Princess Dye]

Brian's defense combined with a .220 average will help this team a lot more than even a .300+ hitting s***ty outfielder would

 

I guess I just dont share this view at all. How many opportunities are there for a guy like Anderson to impact a game with his ability to cover more ground? The .300 hitter gets several opportunities per game.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Princess Dye

[RockRaines]

Funny that Joe Borchard would probably be a better alternative than Wise.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

In that same postseason when they were teammates, Uribe was .167 av, .167 OBP. Far below Wise's #s.

 

Obviously these are tiny sample sizes. It's just my view that the BA side of this overvalues defensive CF. We're going to be the type of team that needs to hit.

 

I think Wise's .248/.293 from last year made a difference over BA's .232/.272. He's more of a 'when he hits em' type. With guys like Thome and Fields, I just feel we need an extra batter who can hit in situations.

It is virtually impossible to overvalue defense. Pitching = defense and defense = pitching because if you have one but not the other then they both look like s***.

 

Arguing against Brian's D in favor of a 16 point increase in batting average, a 21 point increase in OBP, and a mistake pitch Wise hit for a home run off a young pitcher in his first playoff game that we also happened to lose is about the weakest argument that can ever be made.

[witesoxfan]

Wise last year had the higher Avg and OBP than Anderson. He had 5 RBIs in 7 ABs in the postseason. Overall his postseason offensive stats were solid.

 

You are suggesting that the White Sox start Dewayne Wise partly because of 8 plate appearances in the postseason. Wonderful. During the 8 at bats in which Brian Anderson hit a home run, his OPS was 5.000. Dewayne Wise can't beat that.

 

Brian Anderson was a far more valuable player than Dewayne Wise was last season alone. He was slightly worse offensively and far superior defensively.

 

I think that adding a clutch hitter to your lineup matters more than that sliver of flyballs that cant be gotten to by Wise/Dye that can be gotten to by Anderson/Dye.

 

I would bet that Anderson would get to more flyballs than Dewayne Wise gets clutch hits.

 

If your team's out of contention, fielding can get you more wins. If your team's in contention, which we hope to be, then what will matter more is that extra clutch hitter. If our pitchers are allowing tons of gappers that test the centerfielder all year, then we arent playing for anything anyway and it matters less.

 

That is absolutely the most absurd comment I've ever seen. Good fielding can prevent clutch hits from needing to happen. If a CFer makes a catch that prevents a double that scores 2 runs that ties the game, what is the need for the game winning homer?

 

And beyond that, if there is such a thing as clutch hitting, why is there no such thing as clutch fielding? Do you remember how game 163 ended?

 

To me, the opportunity cost of BA in the lineup is too great. I hope this is finally the year that this stance is wrong.

 

To me, Dewayne Wise is a mediocre hitter who's best suited for a bench spot.

 

And people will get on me for the last post, but I think in 05 our winning the world series was not all-out determined by having Rowand in CF. That was icing on the cake, but we couldve won the title with a lesser defensive CF.

 

No, the 2005 title was determined for any number of reasons. One of them was undoubtedly the defense in CF.

 

A bigger reason we won is that we were dangerous 1 thru 9. We had quick bats in that lineup, not long swings like Anderson's.

 

Carl Everett? Frank Thomas? Joe Crede? Juan Uribe???? All had very long swings. The Sox were not dangerous 1-9, they just didn't have a huge weak spot at any point in the lineup. I am not about to call Scott Podsednik nor Juan Uribe a dangerous hitter.

 

A guy like 05 Uribe, to me, compares to Wise. He can be clutch, even if his norm is unimpressive. Anderson at the ML level has only shown the occasional power and hasnt proven he can do X in situation Y. It's just totally random with him.

 

Juan Uribe also played gold glove defense in 2005. Wise is a bad defensive LFer.

 

Brian Anderson was also pretty damn good in high leverage situations last year (which were sparse, given, but that is to be expected with a part-time player). However, in about twice the plate appearances, he had a higher average and much higher on-base percentage than Dewayne Wise did in the same situations. Wise hit 2 big homers during the year in those spots, and as such, his OPS reflects that.

 

[Princess Dye]

Arguing against Brian's D in favor of a 16 point increase in batting average, a 21 point increase in OBP, and a mistake pitch Wise hit for a home run off a young pitcher in his first playoff game that we also happened to lose is about the weakest argument that can ever be made.

 

To me a 21 point increase in OBP matters if youre talking about the hitter who bats most per game.

 

Then once he's on base one guy is better suited to making a pitcher lose his focus.

[Princess Dye]

And beyond that, if there is such a thing as clutch hitting, why is there no such thing as clutch fielding? Do you remember how game 163 ended?

 

Can you guarantee me Wise doesnt get to that ball?

 

 

If your team's out of contention, fielding can get you more wins. If your team's in contention, which we hope to be, then what will matter more is that extra clutch hitter. If our pitchers are allowing tons of gappers that test the centerfielder all year, then we arent playing for anything anyway and it matters less.

 

But we're talking about the batter who gets the most chances to do something per game. I would fully agree that KW has not stocked our roster right this year.

 

That aside, if taken back in time to 2005 opening day.....would you rather decrease Rowand's defensive abilities..... or lop off a bunch of Pods' OBP?

Edited March 23, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

To me a 21 point increase in OBP matters if youre talking about the hitter who bats most per game.

 

Then once he's on base one guy is better suited to making a pitcher lose his focus.

If your OBP is under .300 then the opposing pitcher probably doesn't care very much. When you come to the plate and the opposition goes, "Phew, thank God that's not Joey Gathright up there" then you know the last thing you should be doing is leading off for a Major League baseball team.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Princess Dye]

Let me also say that I'd join most in wanting Getz leading off and then wanting the CF in the 9th hole.

 

But this thread's about the possibility that BA will be getting regular playing time in the leadoff slot. To me we give up more than we get with that.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I guess I just dont share this view at all. How many opportunities are there for a guy like Anderson to impact a game with his ability to cover more ground? The .300 hitter gets several opportunities per game.

You're looking at one small area. It's not just about "extra ground," it's about also covering the ground you're expected to cover because you read the ball well off the bat. And over the course of a season, there are going to be a HELL of a lot more times Anderson will catch a ball than Wise will get a hit. The difference between a .230 average and a .250 average is about 10 hits per season, which is less than 2 hits per month. 2 freaking hits per month! Anderson is going to make a HELL of a lot more than 2 extra defensive plays over the span of a month than Wise will.

[lostfan]

Can you guarantee me Wise doesnt get to that ball?

You're trying to look at this in isolation now which is a flawed way to go. But yeah, having actually watched how he reacts to fly balls, I'd say the odds that ball falls in front of Wise for a base hit are much higher.

[Princess Dye]

You're trying to look at this in isolation now which is a flawed way to go.

 

I believe it was you that brought up the solitary incident of a shallow OF pop up, im just reactin here

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Let me also say that I'd join most in wanting Getz leading off and then wanting the CF in the 9th hole.

 

But this thread's about the possibility that BA will be getting regular playing time in the leadoff slot. To me we give up more than we get with that.

I agree that Getz should lead off. And he will. Ozzie isn't going to let a guy hitting under .250 with an OBP under .300 lead off his baseball team. He's just too damn stubborn to accept that right now, and he'll make his offense suffer until he forces himself to make a change that everyone in the world saw necessary long before it became a problem. The only hope is that he actually sticks with Anderson in CF after the fact. With Alexei and Getz being brand new to each other, and with Fields being Fields, the pitching is going to need all the help it can get.

[Princess Dye]

I guess I just think that everyone responding here is going back to the old Wise/BA debate, whereas no one is addressing the topic of the thread.... which is whether or not the good things BA brings you get thwarted when he's placed in the 1-slot. Again, to me the good things BA brings are negated if you give him that many crucial atbats per game. Wise is part of the discussion b/c he brings talents more suited to leadoff.

 

But if we're talking about the two players without talking about leading off..... then there are other more appropriate threads for these types of responses. I probably contributed to this getting off track myself.

 

I would wish it wasnt an issue, but the team has said it prefers Getz lower in the order. We all hope that changes it seems, but b/c of Ozzie's comments, the topic is a necessary one.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Princess Dye

[lostfan]

I believe it was you that brought up the solitary incident of a shallow OF pop up, im just reactin here

That was wite, he said that to illustrate his point. Which would be that BA's diving catch is just as important as a "clutch hit" by Wise (in quotation marks because Wise should not be in any conversation involving clutch hitting, except to say "Dewayne Wise is not a clutch hitter").

[lostfan]

I guess I just think that everyone responding here is going back to the old Wise/BA debate, whereas no one is addressing the topic of the thread.... which is whether or not the good things BA brings you get thwarted when he's placed in the 1-slot.

 

 

If thats not what we're talking about then there are other more appropriate threads for these types of responses. I probably contributed to this getting off track myself.

 

I would wish it wasnt an issue, but the team has said it prefers Getz lower in the order. We all hope that changes it seems, but b/c of Ozzie's comments, the topic is a necessary one.

I think even the most pro-Anderson posters on this board are in agreement that Anderson has no business being in the leadoff spot unless it means getting him more ABs in spring training. Hell, I'd rather have Alexei up there, as much as that'd suck.

 

edit: also I think Ozzie has signaled that he's open to having Getz at the top of the order if he needs to.

Edited March 23, 2009 by lostfan

[Kyyle23]

Honestly, i think this is all media conjecture. There is no way that Ozzie puts BA at the top, there is no need for it, there are much more capable hitters in the lineup. Ozzie knows this, he is just throwing as much crap at the wall to feed the media beast and they ran with it again.

 

No need to get worked up about this

[clyons]

We don't have anybody on this team who remotely resembles a prototypical leadoff man. With the roster as presently constructed, ANYBODY we put there will be somewhat of a reach. I'd like to see Getz there, but I haven't seen enough of Spring Training to base that on anything more than wishful thinking, and how bad I think everybody else would be.

 

One saving grace about BA up top is that he'd likely see more fastballs, which he has shown a much greater ability to handle. If he can learn to sit dead red (big if, I know), he might be able to hit up there and even take a few walks before a a starter gets locked in.

 

BA can bring the leather. For that reason alone, I want him in CF over the puss arm and the journeyman minor leaguer. Ideally, he'd hit 9th, but I won't get any more worked up over him at the top than I would almost anyone else at this point.

[DBAHO]

By July, I think you'll see Getz as the leadoff hitter.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to see Wise leadoff, and then the Sox go to Anderson in CF and move him down the bottom of the order and move Getz up to the leadoff spot.

 

But BA, needs to become a more patient hitter as well I think. But then again, his history shows that the less pitches he's taken in his career over his 4 major league seasons, the more productive of a hitter he's been.

[witesoxfan]

Can you guarantee me Wise doesnt get to that ball?

 

If he's playing in the same spot Anderson is playing, I can guarantee it beyond a doubt. Brian Anderson gets better reads, has better leaping ability, and is faster in the field than is Dewayne Wise. If he's playing shallow, which would be moronic in that situation as you play a no-doubles defense in that situation, then he probably gets to it.

 

 

But we're talking about the batter who gets the most chances to do something per game. I would fully agree that KW has not stocked our roster right this year.

 

A batter gets 500-700 chances to hit the ball each year, given full playing time, you are correct in that. However, of those times, even the best will fail 55% of those times (meaning a .450 OBP), and the worst fail close to 75-80% of the time (which is Tony Pena Jr and hitters of his caliber). Dewayne Wise was around the 70% mark in that regard last year, and he's at 75% for his career. So even when it comes to hitting, he's been horrendous throughout his career.

 

With that in mind, outfielders will make anywhere from 250-450 putouts in any given season, with corner outfielders making fewer than centerfielders. That right there tells me that outfielders have more of an ability to affect the outcome of the game than hitters do. If given the same set of circumstances and the same amount of balls in play, Anderson gets to 50 more flyballs than Wise (which is reasonable, as it means he gets to 1 more ball every 3 games than Wise), do you think that will save more runs than 15-20 clutch hits, any of which could be with runners on base or with the bases empty (because I assume you are suggesting that by clutch hits, this means he's either bringing in runs or starting a rally)? I will personally take the outs.

 

That aside, if taken back in time to 2005 opening day.....would you rather decrease Rowand's defensive abilities..... or lop off a bunch of Pods' OBP?

 

It's a hypothetical question that's pretty impossible to answer due to any number of extenuating circumstances. If Podsednik is terrible, he wouldn't have played more than 70 games for the White Sox, which would then lead them to find a replacement for him both in the leadoff spot and in LF. You can't assume that if Podsednik puts up a .300 OBP that they would have kept him in the lineup, because no team that has any common sense would keep a player that bad in the lineup for so long. So, if I am to assume that, I'll take Rowand's defense because the Sox probably would have then gone to Iguchi in the leadoff spot and could have used anyone from Joe Borchard to Roosevelt Brown to Raul Mondesi to Jose Cruz to any other number of potential players that were within the system, signed and on the AA/AAA team, released throughout the season, or traded. Fair?

[jamesdiego]

I'm a new posterhere , but long time reader. I have to say that the hate on here for Wise is getting pretty ridiculous. And the love for Brian Anderson is, dare I say, much similar to what I expect to read on that "other" White Sox message board. For Brian. Freakin. Anderson. If he maybe put in some more effort & work into learning how to hit, like playing some winter ball, and putting up some decent numbers there. Then yea, I'll be all for it, but I guess he SOMEHOW thinks to good for winter ball.

 

And I by no means am advocating Wise for leadoff, but for the 9 hole. Yes, he's career minors average is .259, which has been pointed out frequently lately. But that neglects to take into account that he made a major change in his swing before last year. After which he simply racked with a .319 .402(BA/OBP), and in turn earned himself a call up. He hit .276 batting 9th, .286 in the 2 hole. Of course he fell apart when Ozzie put him in leadoff in the important series in Minny, as it was too much for him. But you gotta say he was clutch: 2 outs/RISP average of .286, with late & close of .389. Give the guy a break.

 

As everyone else I say Getz leadoff, but give me Wise at 9. Brain could still be his defensive replacement and start against most lefties.

[southsideirish71]

I'm a new posterhere , but long time reader. I have to say that the hate on here for Wise is getting pretty ridiculous. And the love for Brian Anderson is, dare I say, much similar to what I expect to read on that "other" White Sox message board. For Brian. Freakin. Anderson. If he maybe put in some more effort & work into learning how to hit, like playing some winter ball, and putting up some decent numbers there. Then yea, I'll be all for it, but I guess he SOMEHOW thinks to good for winter ball.

 

And I by no means am advocating Wise for leadoff, but for the 9 hole. Yes, he's career minors average is .259, which has been pointed out frequently lately. But that neglects to take into account that he made a major change in his swing before last year. After which he simply racked with a .319 .402(BA/OBP), and in turn earned himself a call up. He hit .276 batting 9th, .286 in the 2 hole. Of course he fell apart when Ozzie put him in leadoff in the important series in Minny, as it was too much for him. But you gotta say he was clutch: 2 outs/RISP average of .286, with late & close of .389. Give the guy a break.

 

As everyone else I say Getz leadoff, but give me Wise at 9. Brain could still be his defensive replacement and start against most lefties.

 

Welcome to Soxtalk,

 

How many times do we have to learn the lesson about putting a not so good defensive guy out in CF. Wise was not a good defensive LF, I dont see how that gets better when he moves to CF. He fell apart not when he was put in the 1 hole, its when he was given more playing time. Wise is a 4th OF, and is not a starter. When bench players become starters they sometimes get exposed. Thats what happened to Mr. Wise. As a role player, he is okay.

Edited March 23, 2009 by southsideirish71

[lostfan]

I'm a new posterhere , but long time reader. I have to say that the hate on here for Wise is getting pretty ridiculous. And the love for Brian Anderson is, dare I say, much similar to what I expect to read on that "other" White Sox message board. For Brian. Freakin. Anderson. If he maybe put in some more effort & work into learning how to hit, like playing some winter ball, and putting up some decent numbers there. Then yea, I'll be all for it, but I guess he SOMEHOW thinks to good for winter ball.

 

And I by no means am advocating Wise for leadoff, but for the 9 hole. Yes, he's career minors average is .259, which has been pointed out frequently lately. But that neglects to take into account that he made a major change in his swing before last year. After which he simply racked with a .319 .402(BA/OBP), and in turn earned himself a call up. He hit .276 batting 9th, .286 in the 2 hole. Of course he fell apart when Ozzie put him in leadoff in the important series in Minny, as it was too much for him. But you gotta say he was clutch: 2 outs/RISP average of .286, with late & close of .389. Give the guy a break.

 

As everyone else I say Getz leadoff, but give me Wise at 9. Brain could still be his defensive replacement and start against most lefties.

I don't actually hate Wise and I've even said more than once that if he plays his way onto the roster as a bench player then he deserves it, but seriously he's not a good player and should not be starting everyday in CF under any circumstances (and I don't love Anderson either and have said repeatedly that he can't hit, those 2 things don't have to be interchanged but that's where the arguments always go). People are trying to make him into something he's not here, he is a bench player, and should be getting spot starts/pinch hit appearances. If we're going to give a 31 year old minor league journeyman mitigating circumstances such as "making major changes in his swing" then Anderson should get that same excuse since he's been trying to do the same thing. I also don't really buy the "pressures of the leadoff spot" argument (why would it be any different in the 2 hole where similar things are expected of you?) since I fully support Getz doing that unless/until he shows he can't or KW finds a more ideal solution.

Edited March 24, 2009 by lostfan