What is the main problem with Fields defensively?

[GoodAsGould]

One more time. Players do not change too much. You are who you are. I have read several times that Cora was working miracles in Miami with Fields. I never bought into that.

 

If your defense has been shaky all your life, you will be sorry with the glove until you retire. If you are a good fastball hitter in the minors, you will be able to hit fastballs in the majors. If you are lazy in the minors, you will be lazy in the majors. If you have personality problems, you will have those all your life.

 

What makes me mad is the following. If the Sox gurus have doubts about Fields at 3B, then tell him that and move him to another base or DH immediately. Maybe for Viciedo is too early to tell. The Sox do not have had the time to evaluate Viciedo fully. But if there are some doubts about him at 3B, tell him that and move him to another position very soon.

 

Why wasting so much time and resources on failing projects?

 

This couldnt be more wrong. For one, there are plenty of athletes who have come up poor defensively and transformed themselves into avg. or above avg. defenders. Obviously part of it is god given talent and athletic ability, but thats only to be an elite defender. Now there are plenty of guys who were lazy in the minors and have changed for the best, bobby jenks is one of them, hell he can go down to refute your personality problems too. Sometimes people just take longer to figure things out.

[Cubano]

Great point.

 

Fields is enticing enough this ST that i'm going to forgive a certain amount of errors early on.

 

 

I never speak in absolute terms. Some will improve, but the majority will not. The probability is against Fields improving his defense at 3B. That is his history that many of you have written many times.

 

We shall wait and see.

[Kyyle23]

Oh, common kyyle23. There is no secret I root for cuban players. I was born there. You guys have a 1000 players and there are a handfull of cubans in the USA (majors and minors). That does not mean I do not like other players. I have always admired Thome and Griffey since their days in Cleveland and Seattle when I first saw an MLB game in the refugee camps. Viciedo was not competing against an established 3B. If Viciedo would had made the team, that means better opportunities for future defectors. If there is a set of players that have the hardest road to the majors or USA, that is us cubans. Some is our own shortcomings because we have not been able to remove Castro. But there are other aspects of this complex situation that MLB is responsible too.

 

Am I writing something out of the extraordinary here? Most of you think Fields is not good defensively. I am not making this up.

 

Fields won't the job. He hit 400 +. I would have loved to see Viciedo still competing but he was sent down. I also wrote that Fields should have given priority over Viciedo because he was promised he would be this year 3B. I also wrote I like to see Viciedo playing back up in different positions. Maybe you did not read my post about this.

 

This is a free forum and this is America. What happened to free speech!

 

By the way, I am sure you were rooting for Japan to beat USA in the WBC. I root for Cuba first and then USA unless my child is with me watching. If that the case, I root for USA no matter what.

 

No hard feelings whatsoever.

 

Everytime you get questioned on a baseball opinion you come up with this "I lived in Cuba.....I love free speech....MLB/upper management/ etc is responsible" stuff. I get it. I know where you are from, I respect what you have gone through, and you probably have seen and experienced things that I will never get close to. But thats not what I am talking about. Im talking about how you have constantly criticized Ozzie and KW as if they have some agenda to keep Viciedo down and not let him advance. There is none of that, this isnt a conspiracy to hold the Cubans down. The Sox were thrilled to death with Alexei last year, and they are going back for more with Viciedo, the only problem is that Viciedo isnt quite ready yet, and Fields has been preparing for this for the last 3 years of his life. There is a reason that Fields was drafted by the Sox, and that was to be their future 3B, and the Sox owe it to themselves to see if Fields can do it, and at the same time they are giving Viciedo constant at bats in the minors to make sure that he plays consistently.

 

 

[Princess Dye]

Talking about a guy who can't stay healthy is nuts. He can't stay healthy. This is like Cub fans pining for Prior because of 2003. Sure if Joe was healthy then he would be on this team. But he can't stay healthy. So whats better, signing a guy and praying he can stay healthy at 3rd base. Then watch him sail throws over the 1st baseman's head like last year because his back is hurting. Uribe out produced Crede last year and played better D. Think about that for a second. Thanks for 2005 Joe, its time to move on. We start with Josh Fields and give him some time. If it doesnt work out, we move on to the next guy.

 

Well, the Sox were still faced with a decision. Give Crede a cheap contract that beats out Minny's (but not by a ton)......and pursue trades for Fields

 

Or

 

Keep Fields only.

 

 

 

I would agree with anyone that would speculate Fields likely has low trade value at this point. But you cant talk about Crede as if he was in line for a huge payday. Because of his injuries, we wouldve gotten a massive discount.

 

We can make ourselves think it was a no-brainer to soothe ourselves, but there's still baseball to be played. You can wish it away, but Joe Crede will have atbats this year.

 

 

 

 

if Crede turns around his career on a bargain deal, maybe we made the wrong move. You have to at least admit that is possible.

 

My only point here is that all this is still to be determined. I would agree with your guesses but I dont cement them as automatic fact that they're right and praise the organization.

 

I wait and see, and these boards are better if more people keep the critical eye. Your own description of fandom SEEMS to be (defintely correct me if i'm wrong) keeping the critical eye until the Sox make a decision, and then support that decision til the next critical decision has to be made.

 

I say this based on your last two sentences.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Princess Dye]

Everytime you get questioned on a baseball opinion you come up with this "I lived in Cuba.....I love free speech....MLB/upper management/ etc is responsible" stuff. I get it. I know where you are from, I respect what you have gone through, and you probably have seen and experienced things that I will never get close to. But thats not what I am talking about. Im talking about how you have constantly criticized Ozzie and KW as if they have some agenda to keep Viciedo down and not let him advance. There is none of that, this isnt a conspiracy to hold the Cubans down. The Sox were thrilled to death with Alexei last year, and they are going back for more with Viciedo, the only problem is that Viciedo isnt quite ready yet, and Fields has been preparing for this for the last 3 years of his life. There is a reason that Fields was drafted by the Sox, and that was to be their future 3B, and the Sox owe it to themselves to see if Fields can do it, and at the same time they are giving Viciedo constant at bats in the minors to make sure that he plays consistently.

 

I havent read all Cubano's posts, but I get kyyle's point of view now.

 

We cant be so far in support of one player that it blinds us. Cubano, I think we all know Fields has defensive deficiencies.

 

But I think we also would say that if Viciedo was a defensive dominator at 3B, he'd have the job. But he doesnt.

 

 

 

To beat out Fields, Viciedo wouldve had to do everything above-and-beyond outstanding. He was nice but not outstanding, so he's 20 and he'll go to the farm for a bit.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Kyyle23]

Well, the Sox were still faced with a decision. Give Crede a cheap contract that beats out Minny's (but not by a ton)......and pursue trades for Fields

 

Or

 

Keep Fields only.

 

 

 

I would agree with anyone that would speculate Fields likely has low trade value at this point. But you cant talk about Crede as if he was in line for a huge payday. Because of his injuries, we wouldve gotten a massive discount.

 

We can make ourselves think it was a no-brainer to soothe ourselves, but there's still baseball to be played. You can wish it away, but Joe Crede will have atbats this year.

 

 

 

 

if Crede turns around his career on a bargain deal, maybe we made the wrong move. You have to at least admit that is possible.

 

My only point here is that all this is still to be determined. I would agree with your guesses but I dont cement them as automatic fact that they're right and praise the organization.

 

I wait and see, and these boards are better if more people keep the critical eye. Your own description of fandom SEEMS to be (defintely correct me if i'm wrong) keeping the critical eye until the Sox make a decision, and then support that decision til the next critical decision has to be made.

 

I say this based on your last two sentences.

 

 

How were the Sox going to give Crede a cheaper deal than Minny, the Sox werent going to be able to offer arbitration to Crede because he already made it known he was going to bring himself to the FA market. So if they offered him arbitration anyways, and he rejected it, they werent going to be able to offer him less of a deal than arbitration(which is what he ended up getting), could they?

[Cubano]

Everytime you get questioned on a baseball opinion you come up with this "I lived in Cuba.....I love free speech....MLB/upper management/ etc is responsible" stuff. I get it. I know where you are from, I respect what you have gone through, and you probably have seen and experienced things that I will never get close to. But thats not what I am talking about. Im talking about how you have constantly criticized Ozzie and KW as if they have some agenda to keep Viciedo down and not let him advance. There is none of that, this isnt a conspiracy to hold the Cubans down. The Sox were thrilled to death with Alexei last year, and they are going back for more with Viciedo, the only problem is that Viciedo isnt quite ready yet, and Fields has been preparing for this for the last 3 years of his life. There is a reason that Fields was drafted by the Sox, and that was to be their future 3B, and the Sox owe it to themselves to see if Fields can do it, and at the same time they are giving Viciedo constant at bats in the minors to make sure that he plays consistently.

 

 

It is nothing against Guillen or KW. I have written many times I am gratefull they gave Alexei a fighting chance like no other team did. I have written that many times. Haven't I?

 

Viciedo hit 231 in his first ST. Eidier Torres, Jerry Owens and Bret L. were hitting less than his 231 last time I check a few days back. I am sure there are more players who hit less than Viciedo in ST and will be deemed ready for MLB.

 

I have written the MLB policies make it harder for cubans than any other nationality. You may agree or not. I am quite content with cubans signing with middle of the pack teams such as the White Sox that do not have the resources to compete bit the New Yrok teams and Boston. I like to see cubans signing with the very bad teams to be honest with you.

 

By the way, Bush lied, Obama has lied, Clinton lied, Guillen has lied, KW has lied, CEO's lie about their companies, Castro is a big liar. I can go on and on. I am just sick and tired of people lying or misleading.

 

My thing with Viciedo is the following: the Sox leadership promised a fair shot. In my opinion, they did not give him a fair shot. You may believe they did. I don't.

 

By the way, many of you were rooting for Fields. I have never questioned why. It is your choice.

 

I am a casual White Sox fan. I have never lived nor visited the windy city. There is no secret I root for the Chi Sox because the Contreras, Alexei and Viciedo. I am not attached to any team in the Majors per say. I did not grow up in the USA. It is different for you than for me.

 

The Mariners usually go after japanese players because they are in the west coast and want to capture the japanese market. I am sure many japanese root for the M's. Others west coast teams go after mexican players and even target mexican fans. Well, the White Sox captured me.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Cubano

[Princess Dye]

By the way, Bush lied, Obama has lied, Clinton lied, Guillen has lied, KW has lied, CEO's lie about their companies, Castro is a big liar. I can go on and on. I am just sick and tired of people lying or misleading.

 

For a 20 year old, though, a fair shot isnt necessarily an even battle with Fields. If they had tied, Fields wouldve gotten it. Viciedo had to dominate to win.

 

Viciedo comes in and has a dynamite spring...Fields falters....then yes the job is his.

 

 

 

Fields did not falter. I mean, the tone you use here is appropriate for a situation where a guy totally raked and shouldve won the job.

 

But Viciedo had only a nice spring, Fields had a stellar one with some glove issues. I suppose your argument is that defensively, Fields was bad enough to warrant losing the job. I dont think we saw enough badness for that. You may in the end be right that Fields should be a DH, but the offense was too good to result in Fields being demoted to a bench role.

 

 

 

It's just a matter of slotting a 20 year old in one place in the organization, slotting a later twenties guy in another.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Princess Dye

[whitesoxbrian]

Fields will never hit .310 with an OBP even close to .370 like Ramirez. Sorry.

[Cubano]

For a 20 year old, though, a fair shot isnt necessarily an even battle with Fields. If they had tied, Fields wouldve gotten it. Viciedo had to dominate to win.

 

Viciedo comes in and has a dynamite spring...Fields falters....then yes the job is his.

 

 

 

Fields did not falter. I mean, the tone you use here is appropriate for a situation where a guy totally raked and shouldve won the job.

 

But Viciedo had only a nice spring, Fields had a stellar one with some glove issues.

 

 

 

It's just a matter of slotting a 20 year old in one place in the organization, slotting a later twenties guy in another.

 

 

I have never written Viciedo deserved the shot over Fields based in ST performance. Fields beat Viciedo over half of ST. Based on that and his time with the Sox, he won the job.

[bmags]

Fields will never hit .310 with an OBP even close to .370 like Ramirez. Sorry.

 

I was waiting for someone to completely miss the point, it took two pages, but congratulations whitesoxbrian!

Edited March 29, 2009 by bmags

[nitetrain8601]

You are far too biased to be commenting on this.

 

I actually agree with him.

[Kyyle23]

I was waiting for someone to completely miss the point, it took two pages, but congratulations whitesoxbrian!

 

 

LOL

[Whitewashed in '05]

Well, the Sox were still faced with a decision. Give Crede a cheap contract that beats out Minny's (but not by a ton)......and pursue trades for Fields

 

Or

 

Keep Fields only.

 

 

 

I would agree with anyone that would speculate Fields likely has low trade value at this point. But you cant talk about Crede as if he was in line for a huge payday. Because of his injuries, we wouldve gotten a massive discount.

 

We can make ourselves think it was a no-brainer to soothe ourselves, but there's still baseball to be played. You can wish it away, but Joe Crede will have atbats this year.

 

 

 

 

if Crede turns around his career on a bargain deal, maybe we made the wrong move. You have to at least admit that is possible.

 

My only point here is that all this is still to be determined. I would agree with your guesses but I dont cement them as automatic fact that they're right and praise the organization.

 

I wait and see, and these boards are better if more people keep the critical eye. Your own description of fandom SEEMS to be (defintely correct me if i'm wrong) keeping the critical eye until the Sox make a decision, and then support that decision til the next critical decision has to be made.

 

I say this based on your last two sentences.

 

First off, all I was saying was that, "Crede would've gotten that" doesn't need to be posted over and over. We all watched Crede. We all know how good he is defensively when healthy. We all think the same thing when Fields misses a ball, but does it really need to be posted? I also never said never utter a word about Joe Crede. I think I've made it clear already what I meant.

 

Aside from all the business details, you would have taken Crede over Fields AGAIN this season? Crede shouldn't have been in a sox uniform last season. The only reason he was is because there were no takers. So once again we were left without a third basemen for most of last season because he got injured again.

 

I don't believe everything the sox management tells me to believe, but I also don't believe Boras when he says Crede is ready to play a full season when he hasn't been able to do that since 2006.

 

[Princess Dye]

Aside from all the business details, you would have taken Crede over Fields AGAIN this season?

 

I'm already in here saying that it's Fields' time this year.

 

But my larger point is that if someone wants to compare Fields to Crede, we still have to. Because Crede could still have been a 2009 player for the White Sox, if enough things had gone right with negotiations in the past.

 

The Sox chose to move away from Crede, and therefore the comparisons can begin. But I'm all for Fields being the guy this year. Gotta go young and get cheap contracts to effectively retool, especially at a position like 3B

Edited March 29, 2009 by Princess Dye

[GoodAsGould]

Yeah Im a bit confused, Fields has obviously been better than Viciedo in spring training, your comparing Viciedo to other athletes who one dont play the same position and 2 going to be on the bench. What good would Viciedo do sitting on the bench for the far majority of the season?

[Princess Dye]

Thats the thing. The fan in us wants to see our young guy get at least a chance to play.

 

We have to fight that off knowing what's best for the organization and player is everyday play, albeit not on the ML club.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Cubano]

Yeah Im a bit confused, Fields has obviously been better than Viciedo in spring training, your comparing Viciedo to other athletes who one dont play the same position and 2 going to be on the bench. What good would Viciedo do sitting on the bench for the far majority of the season?

 

 

If we judge Viciedo 231 average as not being ready, then we should do the same with any player in disregard of any position. I understand the reasoning about giving a player (Viciedo) a chance to play everyday in the minors as oppose as sitting in the bench. I preferred him to back up at 3B, RF and DH in the majors 3 times a week as oppose as being in the minors. I am sure I am in the minority with this view.

[Princess Dye]

If we judge Viciedo 231 average as not being ready, then we should do the same with any player in disregard of any position. I understand the reasoning about giving a player (Viciedo) a chance to play everyday in the minors as oppose as sitting in the bench. I preferred him to back up at 3B, RF and DH in the majors 3 times a week as oppose as being in the minors. I am sure I am in the minority with this view.

 

RF and DH he wont get many atbats though. Those are absolute key guys to our play this year, as old as they may be.

 

We cant disregard the positions, it'd be nice but we're defending division champs and it's not a year for doing that.

 

 

This is a year where we go young at a few positions, but the top tier guys we have are locked in unless there's an injury.

[Kyyle23]

If we judge Viciedo 231 average as not being ready, then we should do the same with any player in disregard of any position. I understand the reasoning about giving a player (Viciedo) a chance to play everyday in the minors as oppose as sitting in the bench. I preferred him to back up at 3B, RF and DH in the majors 3 times a week as oppose as being in the minors. I am sure I am in the minority with this view.

 

 

That just isnt enough for Viciedo, and you should know that. You should want Viciedo getting as many at bats a game as possible, not spot starting and defensive subbing in garbage time.

 

 

If we judge Viciedo 231 average as not being ready, then we should do the same with any player in disregard of any position.

 

You cannot judge players in a vacuum like that. Viciedo is being judged on a multitude of different things and has had a completely different route to the majors, and he should be judged under these variables. The was determined to be not ready at this time, and the team wants him to focus on one position and solidy himself in this position without having to worry about 2 other positions, plus not having consistent at bats.

 

I dont understand why you would want to put him in a platoon position in the majors, I could just see that completely ruining him

[scenario]

If we judge Viciedo 231 average as not being ready, then we should do the same with any player in disregard of any position. I understand the reasoning about giving a player (Viciedo) a chance to play everyday in the minors as oppose as sitting in the bench. I preferred him to back up at 3B, RF and DH in the majors 3 times a week as oppose as being in the minors. I am sure I am in the minority with this view.

 

IMO, he's too valuable to park on the bench. By going to Birmingham, he's going to have a chance to develop along with the group of players who are the future of the team. Makes alot of sense to me.

 

[Princess Dye]

Viciedo has to be viewed as 3B/LF/1B/DH

 

That sets him up for a whole different trajectory than Alexei who could have fit in at any of 2B/CF/SS

 

And all that is even with age aside.

[WCSox]

Konerko just turned 33 and is locked up for at least a couple of more seasons. Hopefully Paulie stays with the team for several more seasons at first base and/or DH.

 

Paulie is signed through next season and I don't want Kenny over-paying to re-sign a guy in his mid-30's whose OPS has declined over the past three years. I appreciate Paulie like few others who have worn a Sox uni, but I'll strangle Kenny if he gives him another multi-year contract.

 

[Princess Dye]

Paulie is signed through next season and I don't want Kenny over-paying to re-sign a guy in his mid-30's whose OPS has declined over the past three years. I appreciate Paulie like few others who have worn a Sox uni, but I'll strangle Kenny if he gives him another multi-year contract.

 

i'm fine with 2year if it's cheap as all get out

Edited March 29, 2009 by Princess Dye

[caulfield12]

Viciedo has to be viewed as 3B/LF/1B/DH

 

That sets him up for a whole different trajectory than Alexei who could have fit in at any of 2B/CF/SS

 

And all that is even with age aside.

 

 

I don't think we can rule out RF.

 

His limited mobility won't affect him as much because not as many balls are hit in that direction (compared to LF) and he has the best arm of anyone in our system in terms of tools.

 

Perhaps this is the assumption because of moving Quentin over from LF, but if Carlos continues to progress in left and Viciedo gets some PT in RF in the regular season and winter ball/AFL, there's no reason to discount the possibility.