Dewayne Wise Named Full-time Starting CF/Leadoff hitter

[Balta1701]

I think inconsistency is correct. They will score 10 or 11 runs one day and get 1 or 2 the next few. Older guys, home run guys and a very inconsistent leadoff man with a rookie batting second will only add to that. Getz will be good, but he is a rookie and at times is going to struggle.

If Getz could fill the Piranha role of hitting around .290+, putting up a .350+ OBP, and just being an all around pest for the other team, that would go a long way to making us a more consistent offense. I'm still of the thought that Getz + Alexei is a good 1-2 combination...if Getz can hit for a solid average. Getting that kind of performance from Getz out of the leadoff spot and then having a guy like Alexei who no matter what is going to put the ball in play in the 2 spot is one of those techniques that can generate an extra run on a day when the power is lacking.

[ILMOU]

There were plenty of cheap options available this offseason.

 

Yes, but they're not available now. KW screwed up, but it's a long season. Nobody is happy about the CF/leadoff situation now, but better options will become available, and we now have real prospects to trade.

 

Did he ever take responsibility for the trainwreck in 2007? Darin Erstad leading off? No. He cried no one could have seen everyone having a bad year.

 

The pitching, and most everything else, was horrible in 2007. Erstad was a terrible move, yes, but not the difference maker for a team that lost 90 games.

 

[hawkubes]

Does anybody remember last year's ALDS? I'd prefer to forget it too, but Dewayne Wise hit a double, a homerun and drove in 5 runs. Anderson came to the plate 5 times, struck out 4 of them, and failed to get a hit. I know it was only a couple of games, but I can't remember Anderson being clutch in any capacity. I get sick to my stomach when Anderson comes up with RISP of a close game, and I don't think I could endure a whole season of it with him in there every day. With Crede gone, the Sox are gonna need other guys to step up in clutch situations. I think a lot of people have forgotten just how dismal Anderson is in these situations.

[southsideirish71]

Does anybody remember last year's ALDS? I'd prefer to forget it too, but Dewayne Wise hit a double, a homerun and drove in 5 runs. Anderson came to the plate 5 times, struck out 4 of them, and failed to get a hit. I know it was only a couple of games, but I can't remember Anderson being clutch in any capacity. I get sick to my stomach when Anderson comes up with RISP of a close game, and I don't think I could endure a whole season of it with him in there every day. With Crede gone, the Sox are gonna need other guys to step up in clutch situations. I think a lot of people have forgotten just how dismal Anderson is in these situations.

 

Oh Christ. Sample size. I remember him hitting a bit in the ALDS. I also remember him running to the wall to locate the ball he let get past him. Wise doesn't hit enough to gloss over the fact that he is terrible at defense. Since we are cherry picking highlights. I also remember a 1-0 blackout game where our CF laid out to catch a ball to win the game. In the playoffs. Teams with the better pitching and defense move on.

 

Edited April 2, 2009 by southsideirish71

[Balta1701]

Does anybody remember last year's ALDS? I'd prefer to forget it too, but Dewayne Wise hit a double, a homerun and drove in 5 runs. Anderson came to the plate 5 times, struck out 4 of them, and failed to get a hit. I know it was only a couple of games, but I can't remember Anderson being clutch in any capacity. I get sick to my stomach when Anderson comes up with RISP of a close game, and I don't think I could endure a whole season of it with him in there every day. With Crede gone, the Sox are gonna need other guys to step up in clutch situations. I think a lot of people have forgotten just how dismal Anderson is in these situations.

The stats actually kind of disagree with you, at least for the regular season, and yes I know it's a hell of a small sample size. Close and Late last year Anderson hit 8/27, good for a .296 average. If you go through his stats on B-R, he's actually quite a bit better when the game is close than when the game is wide open. In what B-R defines as "High leverage" situations, he hit .300 with a .797 OPS.

 

Fascinatingly, he hit 5 home runs in the 5th inning last year, and had no more than 1 HR in any other inning. 1.640 OPS in the 5th inning. Don't pitch to Brian Anderson in the 5th inning.

[Dick Allen]

The stats actually kind of disagree with you, at least for the regular season, and yes I know it's a hell of a small sample size. Close and Late last year Anderson hit 8/27, good for a .296 average. If you go through his stats on B-R, he's actually quite a bit better when the game is close than when the game is wide open. In what B-R defines as "High leverage" situations, he hit .300 with a .797 OPS.

 

Fascinatingly, he hit 5 home runs in the 5th inning last year, and had no more than 1 HR in any other inning. 1.640 OPS in the 5th inning. Don't pitch to Brian Anderson in the 5th inning.

The toughest part of the game for Mickey Mantle was the bottom of the fifth.

[Leonard Zelig]

The toughest part of the game for Mickey Mantle was the bottom of the fifth.

[greg775]

I do think this team will be inconsistent in scoring runs, and we'll see a lot of games where we run up the score with 5 or so long balls and then other games where the only run(s) we put up are whatever Quentin knocks in on his home run in the 8th inning that day.

 

So it's a repeat of last year?

[StrangeSox]

I remember Brian hitting a double to score what seemed like a meaningless run late in the season, but the Sox ended up winning by 1 at the end. Clearly, this means BA is a fantastic player.

What's "sample size" mean?

 

edit: just for reference, it was the September 10th game against the Blue Jays, and Brian got a PH RBI subbing for none other than Jerry Owens.

Edited April 2, 2009 by StrangeSox

[Dick Allen]

So it's a repeat of last year?

Why wouldn't it be? Getz for Cabrera, Fields for Crede/Uribe, Wise for Swisher/Griffey. Probably just as inconsistent and although faster, the team is far from speedy, or savvy on the basepaths. They will explode some days and struggle others.

[Kalapse]

I remember Brian hitting a double to score what seemed like a meaningless run late in the season, but the Sox ended up winning by 1 at the end. Clearly, this means BA is a fantastic player.

What's "sample size" mean?

April 26th, 2008. Brian walks it off against he Orioles and even the great Joe Crede looks on in awe, Brian Anderson: Uber-Clutch.

 

[witesoxfan]

Not with $11 million owed to him. That's about twice his current market value.

 

Your value is what teams are willing to pay. Raul Ibanez got $11 mill over 3 years, and I'd say Dye is worth more than Ibanez is (though that deal also speaks to the Phillies stupidity). Adam Dunn got $10 mill, and I'd say Dye is a similar player to Dunn. Of course, Abreu got $5 million, and he's arguably a better player than Dye.

 

The point is, the Sox couldn't find a taker for Dye because of how much he cost financially and in terms of players. Teams were not willing to pay the $11 million for Dye while also giving up a very good player. I can guarantee you that there are teams around the league who would be willing to pay Dye $11 mill.

 

The fact that KW chose a gaping hole in the #5 spot over Vazquez pretty much says it all - he wanted to shed payroll. Hell, look at what he got in return for Vazquez and Swisher. He was obviously dumping salary.

 

For Swisher, he got a utility player with some ability to start at 3B, a starting pitching prospect, and a relief prospect they liked more than the one they gave up.

 

For Vazquez, they got an up and coming catching prospect, a super utility player with the potential to start at SS, 2B, or CF (plus any other position around the diamond besides catcher), and two lower level minor leaguers with high upside.

 

I don't necessarily see what the problem is with the prospects they got back in return. Sure, they were looking to dump salary, but they got good packages back in return.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Not with $11 million owed to him. That's about twice his current market value.

 

Pat Burrell is worth $8M/year over 2 years on the open market.

Milton Bradley is worth $9M/year over 2 years with a $12M option for a third on the open market.

Dunn is worth an average of $10M/year over 2 years on the open market.

So now JD is worth about $5.5M on the open market?

 

What Hudson, OC, and Abreu signed for is NOT market value. Why can't people understand this? Those players priced THEMSELVES out of the market. Baseball lost a ton in sponsorships and teams were forced to lower payroll expectations. Agents didn't get the memo until it was too late.

 

You cannot say Hudson, OC, and Abreu signed for market value when 90% of the market was already done spending by the time those players signed. There was virtually NO market at all by that point. Players signed for the salaries they did because they were asking crazy figures when the market opened and teams were unable or unwilling to meet those demands so they looked to meet their budgets in other ways. There is NO WAY that the Giants would have given $18.5M guaranteed over 2 years to Edgar Renteria if OC had been asking for something similar or even less.

 

The fact that KW chose a gaping hole in the #5 spot over Vazquez pretty much says it all - he wanted to shed payroll. Hell, look at what he got in return for Vazquez and Swisher. He was obviously dumping salary.

 

As scenario mentioned, the returns for both players were good. Actually, the return for Swisher was good, and the return for Vazquez was great. It was more than I thought we'd be able to get at the time.

 

Also, Swisher makes $5.3M this year. The Sox are paying Dayan Viciedo $5M this year. Coincidence?

 

I don't think that any GM would want to pick up Dotel or Linebrink's contracts right now. Both are entering the down-sides of their career and Kenny over-paid for both out of desperation last winter.

 

Dotel is in the final year of his deal and makes $6M. You're crazy if you don't think the Sox could have dumped that if they wanted to. Linebrink is another story. And I disagree on KW overpaying at the time he acquired them. Both players were looking for closer gigs at the start of that offseason and KW paid the price of a premier setup man in Linebrink and a cheap closer in Dotel. Linebrink got too many guaranteed years, but the market was different then. Those were the days when players like Jamie Walker and Scott Schoenweis made bank. Luis Vizcaino as another example makes $3.5M, and Linebrink only makes $1M more than he does this year.

 

I don't think that Kenny is dumb enough to believe that a career minor-league journeyman like Wise is capable of being a legitimate starting CF. He may be holding out some hope that Owens can raise his OBP enough to lead off, but I don't see him holding his breath. Think about it: If Kenny had such great confidence in these two turds, why did he give up substantial minor-league talent for both Swisher AND Griffey last year? Kenny tried solidifying CF last year by spending on veterans. It didn't work out, so why not go cheap at this position when the economy is forcing you to lower payroll anyway?

 

When you can acquire a player like Josh Anderson for very little and pass, or when you can take a flyer on a guy like Edmonds and pass, or when you can turn your nose up at a reasonably solid complimentary player like Chris Denorfia who can also be had for very little, then it certainly sounds like you have quite a bit of confidence in what you have. If the Sox didn't like Wise or Owens as starters they wouldn't have been in camp in the first place. Simple as that.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[Dick Allen]

Pat Burrell is worth $8M/year over 2 years on the open market.

Milton Bradley is worth $9M/year over 2 years with a $12M option for a third on the open market.

Dunn is worth an average of $10M/year over 2 years on the open market.

So now JD is worth about $5.5M on the open market?

 

What Hudson, OC, and Abreu signed for is NOT market value. Why can't people understand this? Those players priced THEMSELVES out of the market. Baseball lost a ton in sponsorships and teams were forced to lower payroll expectations. Agents didn't get the memo until it was too late.

 

You cannot say Hudson, OC, and Abreu signed for market value when 90% of the market was already done spending by the time those players signed. There was virtually NO market at all by that point. Players signed for the salaries they did because they were asking crazy figures when the market opened and teams were unable or unwilling to meet those demands so they looked to meet their budgets in other ways. There is NO WAY that the Giants would have given $18.5M guaranteed over 2 years to Edgar Renteria if OC had been asking for something similar or even less.

 

 

 

As scenario mentioned, the returns for both players were good. Actually, the return for Swisher was good, and the return for Vazquez was great. It was more than I thought we'd be able to get at the time.

 

Also, Swisher makes $5.3M this year. The Sox are paying Dayan Viciedo $5M this year. Coincidence?

 

 

 

Dotel is in the final year of his deal and makes $6M. You're crazy if you don't think the Sox could have dumped that if they wanted to. Linebrink is another story. And I disagree on KW overpaying at the time he acquired them. Both players were looking for closer gigs at the start of that offseason and KW paid the price of a premier setup man in Linebrink and a cheap closer in Dotel. Linebrink got too many guaranteed years, but the market was different then. Those were the days when players like Jamie Walker and Scott Schoenweis made bank. Luis Vizcaino as another example makes $3.5M, and Linebrink only makes $1M more than he does this year.

 

 

 

When you can acquire a player like Josh Anderson for very little and pass, or when you can take a flyer on a guy like Edmonds and pass, or when you can turn your nose up at a reasonably solid complimentary player like Chris Denorfia who can also be had for very little, then it certainly sounds like you have quite a bit of confidence in what you have. If the Sox didn't like Wise or Owens as starters they wouldn't have been in camp in the first place. Simple as that.

Dye at 35 market value is going to be less than $11 million and I think KW would have had a hard time dumping a middle reliever (although I am one of Dotel's biggest fans) making $6.5 million. According to you, I'm crazy. KW definitely overpaid in money for Dotel and years for Linebrink but that was because he was forced to after throwing garbage at the position (he obviously didn't learn his lesson as he is now doing the same thing with a leadoff hitter and CF) for a couple of years.

[WCSox]

A few things...

 

The return for Vazquez is proof of dumping payroll?? I think it's more likely that KW figured there was no sense spending $11M this year on a guy whose had an ERA in the high 4's two of the last three years.... that we have young kids who could deliver at that level for much less.

 

Uh, yeah, it is. While people here justifiably rip Javy for his lack of testicular fortitude, the truth is that he's still a very good back-of-the-rotation starter who won the Sox quite a few games over the past three years. The last time I checked, a win in Baltimore on a Tuesday afternoon in May counts as much as a win against the Twins in late September. Javy's salary was pretty much the norm for a good-but-not-great veteran pitcher, in the same neighborhood as Jon Garland and Gil Meche.

 

If money wasn't a factor in this decision, why would Kenny go with a perpetually-injured and washed-up Bartolo Colon or an inferior Clayton Richard? All other things being equal, I'd take Javy over either of those guys in a second.

 

And you think the Sox give up 'substantial minor-league talent' for Griffey, eh? You obviously must have liked Masset and Richar more than the Sox did. Besides...

 

The COMBINATION of minor league talent that was given up for Griffey AND Swisher. Way to cherry-pick there.

 

Griffey was not picked up to play CF. He was picked up for the pop in his bat... as a backup plan because of Paulie's struggles at the plate last year. He was only forced into CF because Swisher hit under .200 after the all-star break and played his way out of the lineup.

 

Griffey was never going to play 1B, RF, LF, or ride the pine as a backup last year. He was thrown into CF almost immediately, and stayed there even after Quentin broke his hand. And don't kid yourself: he was never brought to Chicago as a "backup plan." He didn't hit with power or play even average defense in CF, yet his lack of meaningful contribution still guaranteed him a spot in the lineup. Ozzie had no plans to bench a future HOFer like Griffey for Nick Swisher, and Kenny probably wouldn't have let him if he tried.

 

And if you think Swisher was a salary dump... ask yourself what the Yankees could get for him right now if they moved him. He's basically been reduced to a 4th-5th outfielder until he gets the opportunity somewhere to redeem himself. I hate what we gave up for him originally, but I'm impressed by what we got after his implosion in 2008... Bottom line... he got rid of players whose production did not justify their salaries. That's not dumping.

 

A "salary dump" means just that: a dumping of salary. There is no qualifier attached for the reason. The rationale can range from trading a player not earning his paycheck (Swisher) to trading a solid starting pitcher and creating a massive hole at the back of your rotation simply because you want to cut payroll (Vazquez).

 

[bmags]

is it possible this was written with a straight face:

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,5558156.story

 

??????

[WCSox]

Pat Burrell is worth $8M/year over 2 years on the open market.

Milton Bradley is worth $9M/year over 2 years with a $12M option for a third on the open market.

Dunn is worth an average of $10M/year over 2 years on the open market.

So now JD is worth about $5.5M on the open market?

 

Why are you comparing a 35-year-old dinosaur who can't play defense anymore to a bunch of players who are still in the primes of their careers? A comparison of Dye to Abreu would be much more appropriate.

 

Also, Swisher makes $5.3M this year. The Sox are paying Dayan Viciedo $5M this year. Coincidence?

 

I'm not sure why you're comparing these two, either. When you compare the TOTAL sums of their guaranteed contracts, you'll find that Swisher is owed a hell of a lot more. Taking out Viciedo's $4 million signing bonus, he's only owed $6 million over the next four seasons.

 

Given that Swisher came from the steroids-infested A's and that his numbers have dropped substantially over the past three seasons, I'm wondering if Kenny knows/suspects that Swish was taking more than just creatine in Oakland.

 

Dotel is in the final year of his deal and makes $6M. You're crazy if you don't think the Sox could have dumped that if they wanted to.

 

Dotel has been wildly-inconsistent since he blew out his elbow in Houston. He was also a complete gas can after the ASB last season. Why would a GM want to pay $6 million for a guy like that?

 

Agreed that Linebrink is untradeable. He's publicly stated that he doesn't think that his arm will ever be 100% again.

 

And I disagree on KW overpaying at the time he acquired them. Both players were looking for closer gigs at the start of that offseason and KW paid the price of a premier setup man in Linebrink and a cheap closer in Dotel.

 

Dotel was brought in as middle reliever. How many middle relievers get $12 million over two years? And his numbers immediately prior to 2007 were not very good, either (1.34 WHIP in 2007, 2.90 WHIP in 2006, and 1.37 WHIP in 2005). Kenny over-paid big-time for Dotel.

 

When you can acquire a player like Josh Anderson for very little and pass, or when you can take a flyer on a guy like Edmonds and pass, or when you can turn your nose up at a reasonably solid complimentary player like Chris Denorfia who can also be had for very little, then it certainly sounds like you have quite a bit of confidence in what you have. If the Sox didn't like Wise or Owens as starters they wouldn't have been in camp in the first place. Simple as that.

 

What you interpret as confidence in Owens and Wise, I interpret as Kenny being financially-handcuffed with massive salaries from several aging vets (Thome, Konerko, Dye, Contreras) and a bad economy that will drive down revenue.

Edited April 2, 2009 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

Uh, yeah, it is. While people here justifiably rip Javy for his lack of testicular fortitude, the truth is that he's still a very good back-of-the-rotation starter who won the Sox quite a few games over the past three years. The last time I checked, a win in Baltimore on a Tuesday afternoon in May counts as much as a win against the Twins in late September. Javy's salary was pretty much the norm for a good-but-not-great veteran pitcher, in the same neighborhood as Jon Garland and Gil Meche.

 

If money wasn't a factor in this decision, why would Kenny go with a perpetually-injured and washed-up Bartolo Colon or an inferior Clayton Richard? All other things being equal, I'd take Javy over either of those guys in a second.

 

 

 

The COMBINATION of minor league talent that was given up for Griffey AND Swisher. Way to cherry-pick there.

 

 

 

Griffey was never going to play 1B, RF, LF, or ride the pine as a backup last year. He was thrown into CF almost immediately, and stayed there even after Quentin broke his hand. And don't kid yourself: he was never brought to Chicago as a "backup plan." He didn't hit with power or play even average defense in CF, yet his lack of meaningful contribution still guaranteed him a spot in the lineup. Ozzie had no plans to bench a future HOFer like Griffey for Nick Swisher, and Kenny probably wouldn't have let him if he tried.

 

 

 

A "salary dump" means just that: a dumping of salary. There is no qualifier attached for the reason. The rationale can range from trading a player not earning his paycheck (Swisher) to trading a solid starting pitcher and creating a massive hole at the back of your rotation simply because you want to cut payroll (Vazquez).

When KW says he used the savings on Swisher to sign Viciedo (albeit one year of Swisher) you are correct, the purpose of that trade was to reduce payroll. If Swisher made $400k , he would still be here. Vazquez was a dump as well, although I think it was a smart move. If Vazquez made $4 million, he would still be here. Next offseason will be the interesting one with money with all that is coming off the books. Will they bring in higher salaried guys, or go cheap and young? I think only a disaster of a season in 2009 will force them to spend much next year. If they play .500, they can get away with saying Beckham and Viciedo are coming, we don't need to spend money. If they are brutal and their top prospects not very impressive, JR will be forced to break out the checkbook just like he was for Linebrink and Dotel.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

When KW says he used the savings on Swisher to sign Viciedo (albeit one year of Swisher) you are correct, the purpose of that trade was to reduce payroll. They added to it. Vazquez was a dump as well, although I think it was a smart move. Next offseason will be the interesting one with money with all that is coming off the books. Will they bring in higher salaried guys, or go cheap and young? I think only a disaster of a season in 2009 will force them to spend much next year. If they play .500, they can get away with saying Beckham and Viciedo are coming, we don't need to spend money. If they are brutal and their top prospects not very impressive, JR will be forced to break out the checkbook just like he was for Linebrink and Dotel.

There's one other big variable you're leaving out...the economy. This year's liable to be rough, really really rough, on everyone outside of NYY. Next year's looking like another of those years when raising ticket prices isn't a good move, and this year we could see single game/walkup attendance really down, and next year we may see a decently large hit to the season ticket base as well.

 

Either way, barring some shocking mid-season move by KW, I fully expect our payroll next year to be a few %age points lower than this year, given that we're dropping Contreras's salary and we appear to have at least 2-3 pitchers ready who can fill the 4/5 slots, and we'll be dropping Dotel and we probably have a young guy or two who can step in there. And Beckham's going to have to play somewhere. Ditto Viciedo.

[Dick Allen]

There's one other big variable you're leaving out...the economy. This year's liable to be rough, really really rough, on everyone outside of NYY. Next year's looking like another of those years when raising ticket prices isn't a good move, and this year we could see single game/walkup attendance really down, and next year we may see a decently large hit to the season ticket base as well.

 

Either way, barring some shocking mid-season move by KW, I fully expect our payroll next year to be a few %age points lower than this year, given that we're dropping Contreras's salary and we appear to have at least 2-3 pitchers ready who can fill the 4/5 slots, and we'll be dropping Dotel and we probably have a young guy or two who can step in there. And Beckham's going to have to play somewhere. Ditto Viciedo.

With Thome, Dye, Dotel and Contreras, thats $40 million coming off right there. They said after getting rid of Vazquez and Swisher, they were at their payroll limit. Seems to me, trading away a guy making $11 million and getting back prospects, then saying you are at your payroll limit is a salary dump. Personally, I think owners could be using collusion with the fans. Some cities will see drastic dropoffs in attendance. Some, like the White Sox , are expecting the same to higher attendance. I really think the White Sox next year, if they aren't going to raise payroll and continue to use the economy as a crutch, freeze prices or lower them, and come up with a dollar menu at the park like many teams are doing. The White Sox are using the economy as an excuse, yet not offering their paying customers any of the perks other businesses usually have to offer in times like these. I don't think things are as bad for them as they want you to believe.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Dye at 35 market value is going to be less than $11 million and I think KW would have had a hard time dumping a middle reliever (although I am one of Dotel's biggest fans) making $6.5 million. According to you, I'm crazy. KW definitely overpaid in money for Dotel and years for Linebrink but that was because he was forced to after throwing garbage at the position (he obviously didn't learn his lesson as he is now doing the same thing with a leadoff hitter and CF) for a couple of years.

Dye would go for less that $11M, but to say that he's barely worth half that is a major stretch.

 

Kenny would have trouble dealing Swisher right now if he still had him, but he had no trouble moving him at the start of the offseason. If the Sox were in salary dump mode then Dotel probably would have been available at the start of the offseason and I see no reason Kenny wouldn't have been able to move him. The Mets are paying $5M for a setup man in Putz, plus they gave up a lot of talent, and they also gave very good money to K-Rod. If Kenny was looking to dump Dotel, after the numbers he put up last year, I'm sure he could have found a taker.

 

Kenny wasn't "forced" do anything in regards to Linebrink. Kenny brought him in because he wanted to upgrade the bullpen, but Kenny is not forced to upgrade any position. Look at CF.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Why are you comparing a 35-year-old dinosaur who can't play defense anymore to a bunch of players who are still in the primes of their careers? A comparison of Dye to Abreu would be much more appropriate.

 

I'm comparing good offensive players to Dye, and you seem to be missing the entire point. Those players I named, with the exception of Dunn, signed early. Other players got what they did because they wouldn't bring their salary demands down. Because a player forced himself out of an $8M+ per year contract and then ended up signing for around $5 plus incentives doesn't mean what he received is market value. Dye's market value after last season was a lot higher than what you peg him at.

 

I'm not sure why you're comparing these two, either. When you compare the TOTAL sums of their guaranteed contracts, you'll find that Swisher is owed a hell of a lot more. Taking out Viciedo's $4 million signing bonus, he's only owed $6 million over the next four seasons.

 

Given that Swisher came from the steroids-infested A's and that his numbers have dropped substantially over the past three seasons, I'm wondering if Kenny knows/suspects that Swish was taking more than just creatine in Oakland.

 

Do you know what a salary dump is? A salary dump is when you say, "please, take this contract, our payroll is too high." It is not saying, "please give up a fair package of talent for this guy so we can turn around and spend that exact same amount of money on another player that we think is better."

 

Dotel has been wildly-inconsistent since he blew out his elbow in Houston. He was also a complete gas can after the ASB last season. Why would a GM want to pay $6 million for a guy like that?

 

Agreed that Linebrink is untradeable. He's publicly stated that he doesn't think that his arm will ever be 100% again.

 

7.0 H/9, 3.9 BB/9, 12.4 K/9. That's why Dotel would have drawn interest. Do you know how bad bullpens in baseball are, and how much bad relievers get paid? Putz gets $5M this year from the Mets - who they gave up a bunch of talent for - and his peripherals were a TON worse than Octavio's last year. Brandon Lyon got $4.25M as a very late signing in a bad market for FA and was considered a bargain. Kerry freaking Wood got $20.5M guaranteed over 2 years and he can never stay healthy. You're telling me nobody would have wanted Dotel for $6M?

 

Dotel was brought in as middle reliever. How many middle relievers get $12 million over two years? And his numbers immediately prior to 2007 were not very good, either (1.34 WHIP in 2007, 2.90 WHIP in 2006, and 1.37 WHIP in 2005). Kenny over-paid big-time for Dotel.

 

I highly, highly, highly, highly doubt Kenny gave Dotel a blank check so to speak. Dotel had offers and KW provided what was fair. The Sox have NEVER been a team under KW to go pay way above market value for a player. The closest he's ever come to a horrid signing was Torii Hunter (which was market value) and Fukudome (which was market value). He's not going to bid against himself.

 

What you interpret as confidence in Owens and Wise, I interpret as Kenny being financially-handcuffed with massive salaries from several aging vets (Thome, Konerko, Dye, Contreras) and a bad economy that will drive down revenue.

Financially handcuffed??? Why did we pass on Josh Anderson? Why? He makes the league minimum. Why did we pass on him? Finances had nothing to do with it. Kenny thinks Wise and Owens are good baseball players. s***, isn't it JPN who is always talking up David Cook? He's better than Wise and Owens too and he didn't even get an invite to ST. There's no other way around it. Wise and Owens suck as everyday players, yet the Sox thought they would be good enough. That's why they didn't bring in a better player at the league minimum.

[RockRaines]

Wow-long posts=dead thread.

[WCSox]

I'm comparing good offensive players to Dye, and you seem to be missing the entire point. Those players I named, with the exception of Dunn, signed early. Other players got what they did because they wouldn't bring their salary demands down. Because a player forced himself out of an $8M+ per year contract and then ended up signing for around $5 plus incentives doesn't mean what he received is market value. Dye's market value after last season was a lot higher than what you peg him at.

 

So are you saying that Abreu only got a one-year $5 million deal because he signed late, and that his age and eroding skills have nothing to do with it?

 

Do you know what a salary dump is? A salary dump is when you say, "please, take this contract, our payroll is too high." It is not saying, "please give up a fair package of talent for this guy so we can turn around and spend that exact same amount of money on another player that we think is better."

 

Yep, and that's exactly what the Sox did with Vazquez and Swisher. Thanks for proving my point.

 

7.0 H/9, 3.9 BB/9, 12.4 K/9. That's why Dotel would have drawn interest. Do you know how bad bullpens in baseball are, and how much bad relievers get paid? Putz gets $5M this year from the Mets - who they gave up a bunch of talent for - and his peripherals were a TON worse than Octavio's last year. Brandon Lyon got $4.25M as a very late signing in a bad market for FA and was considered a bargain. Kerry freaking Wood got $20.5M guaranteed over 2 years and he can never stay healthy. You're telling me nobody would have wanted Dotel for $6M?

 

Why are you comparing closer salaries to middle reliever salaries? Wood has actually succeeded as closer in recent memory. The Mets were able to over-pay Putz to be a setup man because they're one of about three teams that can still afford to over-pay players. That's a pretty narrow market. Putz is also a much better pitcher than Dotel, yet still makes less. Your cherry-picking of Putz's stats last year (when he battled rib and elbow injuries) notwithstanding, Putz's '06 and '07 numbers completely blow away anything that Dotel's done in the past four years.

 

Give me an example of a 7th-inning middle reliever who makes $6 million/year. And don't tell me that Dotel is a closer. He hasn't been a consistent and effective closer since his time in Houston. Hell, he couldn't even handle Linebrink's role as a setup man last season.

 

Financially handcuffed??? Why did we pass on Josh Anderson? Why? He makes the league minimum. Why did we pass on him? Finances had nothing to do with it.

 

No idea, as I wasn't sitting in on the negotiations with the Braves. Maybe it's because the Sox have a depleted minor league system and the Braves weren't interested in anybody that Kenny was willing to part with. Maybe Kenny knows things about Josh Anderson that we don't. There could be a number of legitimate reasons.

 

One could easily turn this question around and ask any other major league GM why he didn't trade for Carlos Quentin last winter.

 

Kenny thinks Wise and Owens are good baseball players.

 

Yeah, and he really backed up your assertion by trading away three quality minor league players for Swisher last year, and then trading for Griffey mid-season. That's an incredible vote of confidence in Wise and Owens.

 

Kenny thinks that Wise and Owens are adequate players whose flaws can be overcome by Quentin, Thome, Dye, and Konerko. Because if he actually thinks that Wise and Owens are better options than Josh Anderson, he's a f'n moron. And almost everything that Kenny's done over the past five years suggests that he's pretty freaking smart.

Edited April 3, 2009 by WCSox

[WCSox]

Personally, I think owners could be using collusion with the fans. Some cities will see drastic dropoffs in attendance. Some, like the White Sox , are expecting the same to higher attendance. I really think the White Sox next year, if they aren't going to raise payroll and continue to use the economy as a crutch, freeze prices or lower them, and come up with a dollar menu at the park like many teams are doing. The White Sox are using the economy as an excuse, yet not offering their paying customers any of the perks other businesses usually have to offer in times like these. I don't think things are as bad for them as they want you to believe.

 

I basically agree with this. I'd be shocked if the owners weren't secretly colluding to drive down prices.

 

Although I'd be surprised if Sox attendance was similar to or higher than last summer. Unless this team really catches fire (which seems unlikely), I just don't see it. If attendance sags through 2010, Kenny will put away the checkbook and we'll get another "The Kids Can Play" roster like we saw in the late '90s and late '80s.