BEARS GET CUTLER!!!

[Steve9347]

Channel 233, added 2 days ago.

I just s*** myself.

[lostfan]

I immediately recognize the words in my signature when I see them.

[DrunkBomber]

233 is speed tv HD for me

[Y2HH]

Youre changing your tune:

 

No, I'm not, you're CONTINUING TO TAKE MY WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT.

 

Key Points:

 

You never say Cutler is good, you instead say 86 is not "pretty good". I have provided information that shows an 86 qb rating is good enough to be a HOF qb. Now maybe you dont believe HOF qbs are good, I dont know.

 

Key point: Out of context. I said for what they gave up for an 86 QB rating isn't "pretty good". PERIOD. My entire point was a what they got/gave comparison, nothing more. You continue to twist this, and I'm not allowing you to do so. Move on from this now.

 

And I add to this -- no, I do not think HOF qbs are "good", I think they're "great". And in their third years, NONE of those guys were HOF QB's. They are NOW, but they weren't then.

 

Second point:

 

Lets look at Marino's 1985 Pro Bowl season, versus Cutler:

 

G CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT

 

Marino 16 336 567 59.3 4137 7.3 30 73 21 84.1

 

Cutler 16 384 616 62.3 4526 7.3 25 93 18 86.0

 

I guess Marino didnt belong in the pro-bowl that year and shouldnt have been first team NFL?

 

But if you want to back track now and say that Cutler is good and that an 86 is good for a 3rd year QB, go ahead.

 

The problem is you started off saying that the Bears were robbed, when I find it hard to believe that most people would think twice about trading the exact same package for a young Marino, Montana etc.

 

Again, you are basing everything you say off of what I said out of context. You've done this repeatedly, and again, you do it here. Once again, I'm not allowing you to take my words out of context. IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH I SAID THE 86 IS NOT 'PRETTY GOOD' IT WAS ONLY PERTAINING TO WHAT THEY GAVE UP/GOT IN RETURN.

 

And with hindsight being 20/20, of course anyone would trade for Marino, Montana, etc...but hindsight doesn't exist. It could have been 500 other QB's that were traded and never made it, so in those cases, no...nobody would trade for them.

 

Seriously, get off of this now. Do you work in politics or something?!

 

I'm done here. Now please, stop continuing to twist my words after I've repeatedly gone out of my way to clarify this.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Y2HH

[daa84]

evaluating this thing from a nfl draft value perspective....

 

The Broncos traded up to #11 to get cutler....lets assume cutler was a QB in this draft and the bears traded up to get him at 11.

They gave up the #18, 82, and next years 1, which are valued at 900, 180, and we will assume a #20 pick next year valued at 850. So we gave up 1930 points. We got back cutler, who was a #11, valued at 1250 points, and a fifth valued at near 35ish points. So overall net we gave up Orton, and 645 draft points. Is 645 draft points (equivalent to 29th overall pick) and orton worth knowing that your draft pick at 11 will pan out to be what cutler is? If you ask me...yes. To me that seems like a pretty even sided deal, and given the respective needs of the bears and broncos, a win win for both sides.

 

Another way way to put this....Had a current day Cutler been in the draft this year, he would be the #1 pick hands down...3000 value (plus all the $$$ locked into that slot). we gave up an estimated 1930 and orton to get him....

Edited April 3, 2009 by daa84

[Balta1701]

Skanberg

 

[daa84]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nfcnorth/0-10-2...er-upgrade.html

How would Chicago's season have turned out in 2008 had it not lost fourth-quarter leads at Carolina and against Tampa Bay during successive September weekends? If the rest of the season played out with no changes, the Bears would have won the NFC North with an 11-5 record.

 

ESPN Stats & Information offers a statistical comparison that could assuage that concern. Newly-acquired quarterback Jay Cutler had a 94.2 passer rating in the fourth quarter last season, more than 30 points higher than the Bears' combination of Kyle Orton and Rex Grossman. Here are the figures, courtesy Allison Wachs:

Fourth-quarter Performance (2008)

Bears QBs Jay Cutler

Comp. Pct. 56.1 59.9

TD-Int 2-5 11-4

Yards per attempt 5.9 7.3

Passer rating 63.1 94.2

[Y2HH]

Skanberg

 

 

Hahaha, awesome.

[iamshack]

Jeesh...settle down fellas....friendly debate here...

 

Keep in mind that the Pro Bowl is voted upon by humans...humans who recognize that Marino never had a defense or running game to work with....hmm, sounds sort of like Cutler last year. People realize other factors that affect a quarterback's play and take those into consideration when evaluating them...

[daa84]

lets also not forget that Cutler put up the numbers he had in his first two years while playign with untreated Type 1 Diabetes. He said before he got it treated he was always tired after practice and never had much energy.

 

FWIW Cutler also ran in an option style attack his first two or three seasons at vandy before they started to spread it out for him his junior and senior years...the guy can move with his feet...he had 17 rushing TDs in his college career...averaging about 10 rushes per game

 

also a stat that lots of people love is Yards/attempt...cutlers 7.35 was 10th in the league, and Ortons 6.39 was 26th

Edited April 3, 2009 by daa84

[Soxbadger]

It could have been 500 other QB's that were traded and never made it, so in those cases, no...nobody would trade for them.

 

And ive asked you to provide the "500 other qb's" who have posted above 85 qb ratings for their first 3 seasons. Hell even find 10 who have done it and turned out bad.

 

You keep saying that the Bears overpaid, but so far you have done nothing to show why Cutler shouldnt be valued at 2 firsts and a third.

 

evaluating this thing from a nfl draft value perspective....

 

The Broncos traded up to #11 to get cutler....lets assume cutler was a QB in this draft and the bears traded up to get him at 11.

They gave up the #18, 82, and next years 1, which are valued at 900, 180, and we will assume a #20 pick next year valued at 850. So we gave up 1930 points. We got back cutler, who was a #11, valued at 1250 points, and a fifth valued at near 35ish points. So overall net we gave up Orton, and 645 draft points. Is 645 draft points (equivalent to 29th overall pick) and orton worth knowing that your draft pick at 11 will pan out to be what cutler is? If you ask me...yes. To me that seems like a pretty even sided deal, and given the respective needs of the bears and broncos, a win win for both sides.

 

Another way way to put this....Had a current day Cutler been in the draft this year, he would be the #1 pick hands down...3000 value (plus all the $$$ locked into that slot). we gave up an estimated 1930 and orton to get him....

 

Thanks Daa for putting the exact values down for people. (I argued this with Tru yesterday). If you put a value on the picks and then compare them to the Eli trade, the Bears gave up way less for a far more proven qb. Giants gave up a top 5 pick and a first and third, the Bears gave up a middle round pick, plus a first and third.

 

So I guess I dont understand how the Bears got "robbed."

 

[daa84]

no problem...here is a link to the entire chart for reference

 

 

http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/Value-Chart.php

[rangercal]

Good stuff DAA84

Edited April 3, 2009 by rangercal

[Steve9347]

Good stuff DAA84

When are you in town next? We need to share a beer over this acquisition.

[Y2HH]

And ive asked you to provide the "500 other qb's" who have posted above 85 qb ratings for their first 3 seasons. Hell even find 10 who have done it and turned out bad.

 

You keep saying that the Bears overpaid, but so far you have done nothing to show why Cutler shouldnt be valued at 2 firsts and a third.

 

I have no definitive numbers as to why Cutler shouldn't be valued at 2 first and a 3rd (and neckbeard), other than this was my personal opinion.

 

It was never meant to be anything more than that.

 

And as much as I'd love to go find QB's that were good their first few seasons and then fell off the map (because I'm sure many examples exist), I really don't care to do such research when we're arguing opinions.

[rangercal]

When are you in town next? We need to share a beer over this acquisition.

 

Middle May and then again end of June. I will give you details when I get them. I don't know about a beer, beers sound better.

[Chisoxfn]

Brady Quinn? Aaron Rodgers?

 

You would be hard pressed to see ANYONES mock having either of them fall into the 20's in their draft years.

I actually sat right next to Sanchez right after his proday (and the rest of the USC guys) and he got a call during his dinner (I was about 1 foot from him the entire time over at ESPN Zone before I went to see Chris Paul beat the Clippers) and some team called him up raving about his workout and when he got off the phone he looked at his mom and said, mom, I might be going earlier than any of us thought. No idea if that meant anything or not. Sanchez was also raving about some guy whom I didn't know ofs workout and all of the USC guys were talking about how much that guy helped his stock. Don't ask me, I Follow the draft and enjoy it but I don't know of every guy USC has.

[Chisoxfn]

I was relieved the Bears didn't have to part with any of their current players, but was more than prepared to happily have the Bears do so if need be.

I'd have rather dumped Urlacher than a 1st rounder, but than again, I'm not Urlachers biggest fan and happen to think he's a moron.

[Steve9347]

Middle May and then again end of June. I will give you details when I get them. I don't know about a beer, beers sound better.

You are correct, sir!

[Chisoxfn]

Which makes me wonder how the hell Bowlen ever hired McDaniels in the first place. I wonder if he actually said in the interview process..."Yeah I'd like to get rid of that QB you have. I'll bring in a real winner. Who needs 4500 yards passing?"

McDaniels is an arrogant f***. He might pan out, but he's being awful ballsy for a young head coach.

[SoxFan562004]

McDaniels is an arrogant f***. He might pan out, but he's being awful ballsy for a young head coach.

Yup, he has a Belicheck (sp?) attitude without the resume, let's see how it works out.

 

It will be interesting to see how fans who have seen real quaterbacks react to Orton.

 

I love Shlereth (that is spelled completely wrong, I'm just lazy, it's the guy on ESPN who was a Broncos O-Lineman) ripping the move after he went on a tirade against Cutler for saying he had a stronger arm then Elway. ESPN, got to love it!

[witesoxfan]

I say: So Favre regressed, went through a sophmore slump and rebounded huge. Cutler, on the other hand, regressed 3 straight years in a row.

 

I can't take you seriously when you say stuff like this. He goes from 88.5 in 5 games as a rookie to 88.1 in his first full season of starting to 86 when he's expected to throw the ball almost 40 times a game, and he's suddenly regressing. That, to me, looks like treading water at the worst, and considerign he did as well .

 

Furthermore, if he had thrown for one more touchdown, his QB rating is 86.5. If he throws one fewer interception, it's 86.7. If throws one more touchdown and one fewer interception, he's suddenly at 87.2. You obviously cannot change his statistics, but that just goes to show how fickle the QB rating system really is.

[daa84]

FWIW heres what the Giants traded to get Eli Manning (who at the time was unproven, and even today isn't as good as Cutler IMO, and whom the Giants still had to pay the bonus on)

 

* Rights to 2004 4th Overall Pick, Philip Rivers.

* 2004 3rd Round Draft Pick - Used to draft and sign Kicker Nate Kaeding.

* 2005 1st Round Draft Pick - Used to draft and sign Linebacker Shawne Merriman.

* 2005 5th Round Draft Pick - Traded to Tampa Bay Buccaneers for Left Tackle Roman Oben.

 

So essentially, the giants gave up a #4 overall, a #12 overall (merriman) a 3rd round, and a 5th round, for an unproven Eli, and on top of it had to pay him his bonus...

 

The bears gave up a #18 overall, a pick presumably in the same range (next years 1st) a 3rd round, and GOT a 5th for a proven Cutler, whose bonus they dont have to pay

Edited April 3, 2009 by daa84

[Y2HH]

I can't take you seriously when you say stuff like this. He goes from 88.5 in 5 games as a rookie to 88.1 in his first full season of starting to 86 when he's expected to throw the ball almost 40 times a game, and he's suddenly regressing. That, to me, looks like treading water at the worst, and considerign he did as well .

 

Furthermore, if he had thrown for one more touchdown, his QB rating is 86.5. If he throws one fewer interception, it's 86.7. If throws one more touchdown and one fewer interception, he's suddenly at 87.2. You obviously cannot change his statistics, but that just goes to show how fickle the QB rating system really is.

 

No matter how you cut it, his QB rating went down 3 years in a row...we call that a regression. Of course I was being an ass when I said it, but the numbers are the numbers. I think QB rating is a stupid stat anyway.

[Chisoxfn]

McDaniels didn't sound all that excited about Orton. I'm so f***ing excited.