The Critic Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Pete Rose was not an active ballplayer when he was caught gambling ( or rather, when he signed the agreement to be punished ). In my opinion, nothing he did after retiring as a ballplayer should minimize his on-field accomplishments. When you get more hits than anyone who ever played, that should guarantee HOF status. Keep the lifetime ban, since he agreed to it, but his numbers should gain him entry into the Hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Pete Rose was not an active ballplayer when he was caught gambling ( or rather, when he signed the agreement to be punished ). In my opinion, nothing he did after retiring as a ballplayer should minimize his on-field accomplishments. When you get more hits than anyone who ever played, that should guarantee HOF status. Keep the lifetime ban, since he agreed to it, but his numbers should gain him entry into the Hall. Was he not a player-manager when some of the alleged gambling took place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 This is my first poll ever. The special on ESPN tonite with Dershowitz and Johnnie Cochran has got me all pumped up. I am a baseball purist and I believe Rose should be in the HOF. What do you think? "The man could hit, you must acquit" petes a no, till they let in shoeless joe........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Was he ever a player-manager? I thought he managed after he retired as a player... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 This is my first poll ever. The special on ESPN tonite with Dershowitz and Johnnie Cochran has got me all pumped up. I am a baseball purist and I believe Rose should be in the HOF. What do you think? "The man could hit, you must acquit" petes a no, till they let in shoeless joe........... And Jose Canseco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 This is my first poll ever. The special on ESPN tonite with Dershowitz and Johnnie Cochran has got me all pumped up. I am a baseball purist and I believe Rose should be in the HOF. What do you think? "The man could hit, you must acquit" petes a no, till they let in shoeless joe........... And Jose Canseco was not aware they banned jose for anything.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 This is my first poll ever. The special on ESPN tonite with Dershowitz and Johnnie Cochran has got me all pumped up. I am a baseball purist and I believe Rose should be in the HOF. What do you think? "The man could hit, you must acquit" petes a no, till they let in shoeless joe........... And Jose Canseco was not aware they banned jose for anything.......... LOL...was supposed to be a joke, but I guess it didn't work quite right. Afterall, he's being blackballed, ya know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Well, I looked it up, and he was a player-manager for 2 and 1/2 seasons. Next question - is there any evidence that points to him betting on games while a player-manager? If not, then I still think he goes in. If so, then my opinion changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Non that has been made public. Some choose to believe there is evidence and MLB hasn't released it. Pete, with all the resources in the world to argue his case before a judge and jury accepted the ban. The ban did say lifetime. Accept the punishment. I would like to see some dort of display discussing his achievements and why he isn't a member. Keep his memory alive without admitting him. Doesn't matter if he bet for or against his team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Well, I looked it up, and he was a player-manager for 2 and 1/2 seasons. Next question - is there any evidence that points to him betting on games while a player-manager? If not, then I still think he goes in. If so, then my opinion changes. Something about betting receipts...? I don't know as much about the "case" as some here do, but I seem to remember hearing about betting receipts with his name on them, and I believe they were from the player-manager era. Anyone know if this is accurate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Non that has been made public. Some choose to believe there is evidence and MLB hasn't released it. Pete, with all the resources in the world to argue his case before a judge and jury accepted the ban. The ban did say lifetime. Accept the punishment. I would like to see some dort of display discussing his achievements and why he isn't a member. Keep his memory alive without admitting him. Doesn't matter if he bet for or against his team. I think it does. If he bet for his team to win, I don't see a problem with that. I don't see how that would harm the integrity of the game, as he would just try to get his players to play harder than usual. Now, if he bet for them to LOSE, that's a completely different story, as a manager can very easily hurt his team's chances of winning. Just ask Jerry Manuel, the worst manager of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Pete Rose was not an active ballplayer when he was caught gambling ( or rather, when he signed the agreement to be punished ). In my opinion, nothing he did after retiring as a ballplayer should minimize his on-field accomplishments. When you get more hits than anyone who ever played, that should guarantee HOF status. Keep the lifetime ban, since he agreed to it, but his numbers should gain him entry into the Hall. His numbers ARE in the Hall of Fame. It is not like there is no mention of Pete at all in Cooperstown. My understanding is that you will see references to Pete and his many records many times in the Hall. His records still stand and are recognized. The only thing missing for Pete is the plaque saying he is an inducted member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 The bottom line is that he was the greatest hitter for average, ever! Period. He deserves to be in the HOF. Not just his records! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Non that has been made public. Some choose to believe there is evidence and MLB hasn't released it. Pete, with all the resources in the world to argue his case before a judge and jury accepted the ban. The ban did say lifetime. Accept the punishment. I would like to see some dort of display discussing his achievements and why he isn't a member. Keep his memory alive without admitting him. Doesn't matter if he bet for or against his team. I think it does. If he bet for his team to win, I don't see a problem with that. I don't see how that would harm the integrity of the game, as he would just try to get his players to play harder than usual. Now, if he bet for them to LOSE, that's a completely different story, as a manager can very easily hurt his team's chances of winning. Just ask Jerry Manuel, the worst manager of all time. So there is not the possibility that he could leave a pitcher in longer than normal, subjecting him to injury? Sure there are ways a manager could negatively affect the game even if betting on his own team. The whole premise is that if guys involved in the game are betting, then even the perception that there is impropriety would negatively affect the game. It doesn't even have to be real. If fans ever start to doubt whether the outcome of the games are real, the the game itself could crumble. It is bad enough now that fans suspect many of the records that are being broken now are tainted by steroids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 The bottom line is that he was the greatest hitter for average, ever! Period. He deserves to be in the HOF. Not just his records! Pete Rose broke rules that every single player that plays this game knows exist. They also know the penalties. There is NO way possible that he could not have known. So to say a guy should be honored who basically is spitting in the face of baseball is ludicrous in my mind. If Pete ever wants to come clean and deal with the situation honestly, then I would be open-minded to a possible return. But until that happens, he is basically giving the game the finger and expecting it to honor him despite that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Pete Rose broke rules that every single player that plays this game knows exist. They also know the penalties. There is NO way possible that he could not have known. So to say a guy should be honored who basically is spitting in the face of baseball is ludicrous in my mind. If Pete ever wants to come clean and deal with the situation honestly, then I would be open-minded to a possible return. But until that happens, he is basically giving the game the finger and expecting it to honor him despite that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Wow this poll is split even, 13 to 13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Pete Rose was not an active ballplayer when he was caught gambling ( or rather, when he signed the agreement to be punished ). In my opinion, nothing he did after retiring as a ballplayer should minimize his on-field accomplishments. When you get more hits than anyone who ever played, that should guarantee HOF status. Keep the lifetime ban, since he agreed to it, but his numbers should gain him entry into the Hall. His numbers ARE in the Hall of Fame. It is not like there is no mention of Pete at all in Cooperstown. My understanding is that you will see references to Pete and his many records many times in the Hall. His records still stand and are recognized. The only thing missing for Pete is the plaque saying he is an inducted member. What I was saying is that his numbers should be enough to get him the plaque. That's why I said the numbers should "gain him entry". I realize that he's mentioned in the HOF... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 If you are going to allow guys into the Hall of Fame that have damaged the integrity of the game (there are plenty of cheathers in the Hall), then you have to let Rose in too. I know there is a difference between doctoring baseballs your whole career and betting on the game, but i think that line is very hard to draw. Also, i think him admitting he bet on baseball should have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not he gets in How does admission of guilt change what he did? Personal satisfaction? Who really cares if he admits it or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 The bottom line is that he was the greatest hitter for average, ever! Period. He deserves to be in the HOF. Not just his records! could you supply the stats which back up your claim - there is no way in hell that Rose is the greatest hitter for average, ever! Period. And he does not belong in the HOF. Rex is saying everything that I would say so I won't add more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 I think Rose's career average was around .303. That is nowhere near the best career average of all time. Hell, there's probably 20 active players that have a career average than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 If you are going to allow guys into the Hall of Fame that have damaged the integrity of the game (there are plenty of cheathers in the Hall), then you have to let Rose in too. I know there is a difference between doctoring baseballs your whole career and betting on the game, but i think that line is very hard to draw. Also, i think him admitting he bet on baseball should have no bearing whatsoever on whether or not he gets in How does admission of guilt change what he did? Personal satisfaction? Who really cares if he admits it or not There is a very big difference between doctoring a baseball and betting on the sport you are involved in. If you let Pete in, then what do you do the next time a guy bets on baseball? It is almost impossible to prove whether a guy "throws a game" so where do you draw the line? What amount of gambling on your own sport is okay? All allowing Pete into the HOF (without admission, apology and repentance) is say to everyone else that plays the game that it is okay to break the rules and that the set penalties don't matter. It completely undermines what has been set and that is wrong. If you want to make gambling on baseball legal and roll the dice, then fine do so. Let Pete in and tell everybody else to go for it! That is what you would essentially be doing anyway. I'll say this one more time and if you think about this logically, then you should understand it. I'm sure that in some way everyone has been exposed to a similar type situation or know someone who has. The MERE PERCEPTION of impropriety can be just as damaging as reality. IF people think betting on baseball could be going on, then effectively it is because the same negative effects would take place. Baseball OWES to itself to take a hardline stance to make sure that there is NO perception of it AT ALL. I really, really enjoyed watching Pete play while growing up. He was a great player and he was all about what baseball should be. I have met and even had a few beers with his son who is a lot of fun. I WISH that Pete would do his part to rectify this situation. But he has made his bed and he has to lie in it until he wants to fix it. I think Pete belongs in the Hall, but unfortunately, Pete himself has cost him that chance for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 And did I ever say Ty belongs in the HOF? and did i say anything different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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