White Sox (1-1) vs. Royals (1-1) 1:05-CSN

[qwerty]

Well excuse me for not saying "Yay, Ozzie" after every win (and since when is a manager always directly responsible for every win?)

 

Managers are not directly responsible for every loss either, sorry.

[TheBigHurt]

Managers are not directly responsible for every loss either, sorry.

 

Uh, I never said that.

 

Still love how the ones who try to defend Ozzie are the ones with no real points to make

[qwerty]

Uh, I never said that.

 

Still love how the ones who try to defend Ozzie are the ones with no real points to make

 

No you didn't. What you did say is that a manager is not responsible for every win a team has. You say this because you do not want to give credit where credit is due. When the sox win several in a row you will be no where to be found, and if you are around you will be on a very low key. When the team is going good they (people that are pessimistic for the sake of it) are quiet as a mouse. When the team loses they are as vocal as can be, always.

 

You will respond saying something along the lines '' i'm not that guy'' but i have yet to see someone day in day out back up their dislike for ozzie whether it is a win or a loss.

 

I also do not have to insult people left and right to try and make my point more valid like yourself. Keep them coming, i get a kick out of it.

Edited April 9, 2009 by qwerty

[elrockinMT]

Just jumping in here, but I kind of have a feeling that a team wins or loses on what the players do or don't do. The manager can do some things for sure, but Ozzie is loved by his players and does a pretty good job although he certainly listens to is grumbling gut too much at times. We lost a2-1 game and a game yesterday 2-0. Players need to produce some offense. I am sure it will happen. When Ozzie hits, fields and runs for the layers on the field I will blame him for loses. Not now though.

[kapkomet]

No you didn't. What you did say is that a manager is not responsible for every win a team has. You say this because you do not want to give credit where credit is due. When the sox win several in a row you will be no where to be found, and if you are around you will be on a very low key. When the team is going good they are quiet as a mouse. When the team loses they (people that are pessimistic for the sake of it) are as vocal as can be, always.

 

You will respond saying something along the lines '' i'm not that guy'' but i have yet to see someone day in day out back up their dislike for ozzie whether it is a win or a loss.

 

I also do not have to insult people left and right to try and make my point more valid like yourself. Keep them coming, i get a kick out of it.

I am glad you are back. Seriously.

 

[elrockinMT]

Heh folks there is always tomorrow!!

[almagest]

Just jumping in here, but I kind of have a feeling that a team wins or loses on what the players do or don't do. The manager can do some things for sure, but Ozzie is loved by his players and does a pretty good job although he certainly listens to is grumbling gut too much at times. We lost a2-1 game and a game yesterday 2-0. Players need to produce some offense. I am sure it will happen. When Ozzie hits, fields and runs for the layers on the field I will blame him for loses. Not now though.

Yeah, scoring 1 run in 2 games isn't Ozzie's fault. What is his fault is not putting our offense in a position to succeed as much as he can. Wise hitting leadoff, AJ hitting second, Fields (our best hitter right now) hitting ninth doesn't help us at all.

 

[elrockinMT]

Yeah, scoring 1 run in 2 games isn't Ozzie's fault. What is his fault is not putting our offense in a position to succeed as much as he can. Wise hitting leadoff, AJ hitting second, Fields (our best hitter right now) hitting ninth doesn't help us at all.

 

 

I am at a loss why Wise is starting over Anderson other than lefty-right percentages. However, it doesn't seem that applies to other players. I don't think D Wise has a hit in three games and can't bunt either

[SoxAce]

I am glad you are back. Seriously.

 

Qwerty was Kalapse before Kalapse. Good to see another amazing mind posting again.

[TheBigHurt]

Bait me all you want Hurt. I don't have to give you an argument. Smarter baseball minds than me have decided that he is a good manager. If they decide to fire him...than they fire him. I'm not going to get all riled up over a manager. Or one player. Or a GM. Because at the end of the day, I just want to enjoy White Sox baseball with a couple pops and some friends.

 

Bait you? LOL. Nice cop-out. All I'm trying to do is get some sort of valid point that supports the idea that Ozzie isn't clueless; that would work better than denial, and denial is all I see. I haven't seen ONE valid argument in this respect, and probably because there isn't one. As has been said, he makes so many inexcusable and idiotic moves, decisions and LACK OF them that it's hard not to notice.

 

Smarter baseball minds have decided he's a good manager. Okay, well direct me towards them so maybe I can actually hear so logic, mention to me some of the logical things they've said to support that, or give me some logic yourself.

 

 

I'm not a great baseball mind, but I look at Ozzie and I see constant mistakes game after game where he doesn't put his team in the best position to win by pulling pitcherws when they are cruising, leaving them on the mound when they should be pulled, pitching to guys who clearly should be put on (Morneau comes to mind), putting guys on who should be walked, constantly ignoring stats (he does this so much it makes my head spin), not putting his best defense in this game when it's close (or nearing the end with a slight margin in lead or loss), etc. etc. etc. and I don't believe I should have to note all this; it's obvious to anyone who actually pays attention.

 

If that isn't a bad in-game manager I'd really like you to define what a bad in-game manager is, please. I'll wait for your reply.

[TheBigHurt]

No you didn't. What you did say is that a manager is not responsible for every win a team has. You say this because you do not want to give credit where credit is due. When the sox win several in a row you will be no where to be found, and if you are around you will be on a very low key. When the team is going good they (people that are pessimistic for the sake of it) are quiet as a mouse. When the team loses they are as vocal as can be, always.

 

You will respond saying something along the lines '' i'm not that guy'' but i have yet to see someone day in day out back up their dislike for ozzie whether it is a win or a loss.

 

I also do not have to insult people left and right to try and make my point more valid like yourself. Keep them coming, i get a kick out of it.

 

Another post based solely on opinion as far as I can tell. I can give credit, but how often does a game swing in a way that makes a manager look like a genius (Well... Ozzie anyway, lol)? It's easier for a manager to look bad than to look good. I give Ozzie that because surely he does a lot of good things, too. I'm not trying to say he doesn't. As you said, people are louder when a game is lost than won (not totally, but often) but a loss highlights a manager's decisions more. Bad decisions for the most part seem to affect a game more than good ones because good ones are mostly just sticking with the right guy in the right situation based on guts and statistics; unfortunately Ozzie seems to use more guts and seems clueless on the stats.

 

But AS USUAL, you are presenting the common argument of "Let's cover up all the stupid things he does by presenting useless information or information that in no way counters the point." Saying, "Well, Ozzie makes some good moves, too" does not change the fact of what I am saying. You and many others that support Ozzie seemingly no matter what he does (even during some of the real embarrassments such as when he'd leave Pods in the OF in the 9th in a 1-run lead game when BA was available) don't seem to get this. And not to try and demonize the man, but how often do you really get that sense of, "WOW! Ozzie just made a spectacular move!" Occasionally, but not often. I don't want to not give any credit, but if you're going to present an invalid point at least do it correctly; use examples as I have.

 

Another example of a terrible argument people like yourself seem to throw around: "The players love the manager and playing for him." Yeah, because a player will always get on the mic and talk about how they hate their manager or think he is stupid, right?

 

When the Sox win 7 in a row, if Ozzie is directly responsible for some of those wins I will give him credit. I still see NO validity behinf your argument.

 

 

Simply put, you and other "Ozzie praisers" are simply hiding behind assumptions, presenting "points" irrelevant to the discussion and constantly deny Ozzie's constant asinine decisions.

 

I don't want to insult you, but for a "great mind" as I see you being called, I'm still waiting for a point that actually counters anything I've said or proves it untrue. All I'm seeing is denial, assumptions and shots at me that are irrelevant and merely deter from the point.

 

[qwerty]

Another post based solely on opinion as far as I can tell. I can give credit, but how often does a game swing in a way that makes a manager look like a genius (Well... Ozzie anyway, lol)? It's easier for a manager to look bad than to look good. I give Ozzie that because surely he does a lot of good things, too. I'm not trying to say he doesn't. As you said, people are louder when a game is lost than won (not totally, but often) but a loss highlights a manager's decisions more. Bad decisions for the most part seem to affect a game more than good ones because good ones are mostly just sticking with the right guy in the right situation based on guts and statistics; unfortunately Ozzie seems to use more guts and seems clueless on the stats.

 

But AS USUAL, you are presenting the common argument of "Let's cover up all the stupid things he does by presenting useless information or information that in no way counters the point." Saying, "Well, Ozzie makes some good moves, too" does not change the fact of what I am saying. You and many others that support Ozzie seemingly no matter what he does (even during some of the real embarrassments such as when he'd leave Pods in the OF in the 9th in a 1-run lead game when BA was available) don't seem to get this. And not to try and demonize the man, but how often do you really get that sense of, "WOW! Ozzie just made a spectacular move!" Occasionally, but not often. I don't want to not give any credit, but if you're going to present an invalid point at least do it correctly; use examples as I have.

 

Another example of a terrible argument people like yourself seem to throw around: "The players love the manager and playing for him." Yeah, because a player will always get on the mic and talk about how they hate their manager or think he is stupid, right?

 

When the Sox win 7 in a row, if Ozzie is directly responsible for some of those wins I will give him credit. I still see NO validity behinf your argument.

 

 

Simply put, you and other "Ozzie praisers" are simply hiding behind assumptions, presenting "points" irrelevant to the discussion and constantly deny Ozzie's constant asinine decisions.

 

I don't want to insult you, but for a "great mind" as I see you being called, I'm still waiting for a point that actually counters anything I've said or proves it untrue. All I'm seeing is denial, assumptions and shots at me that are irrelevant and merely deter from the point.

 

People tend to forget all good and remember the bad, it is human instinct. I have yet to see you recall a good decision, whether ''gut instinct'' or stats were involved. The game of baseball since the beginning of time has for the most part been based off of instincts, whether you like it or not, sabermetrics are yet to take the turn for the better, though they will in my life time. Sabermetrics are currently still very underground, but slowly they will become mainstream, as in to keep up with the sport and not be hiding under a rock... people will need to know what certain stats mean, and what a certain situation calls for. Espn, which is a network that only makes you dumber the more you watch (i only watch baseball tonight for the highlights, on mute), finally has the starting pitchers average velocity on their pitches, and that is the very tip of the iceberg. This information has been available for too long for the main sports network in the world to be behind as much as they are.

 

The game of baseball since the beginning of time has been based off of gut instinct, whether you think it is right or not. To put it very simple what you see with ozzie is what you will get from 90% of the other managers around baseball. Does that make it right? No. Only scioscia, gardenhire, and francona, in that order, manage the game to the point of excellence, and believe it or not they are still wrong many times.

 

I am in no way try to cover up the wrong things ozzie does, i just have the belief that if you can rehash every bad decision you believe ozzie to have made (or others even) that you can point out one tiny thing that he may have done to win a game. Another fact that is not well known (seemingly) is that the vast majority, easily 95% (likely even a higher percentage) of the game, is in the players hands, they are the ones actually physically playing the game afterall, shocking, i know.

 

You tell me to use ''examples'' of the good managerial decisions ozzie has made in the past... but i know a lost cause when i see one, and if this isn't i don't know what is. I can give you countless counter arguements, but it would be pointless. '' Well, well, well this one time ozzie did this... and we lost because of that... etc'' Like i said i have seen it all before. This is the longest running topic in soxtalk history for a reason and it is not changing in the near future, maybe due to people not accepting the realization that things are not changing anytime soon, as we as fans cannot alter it, it is out of our hands.

 

I understand venting your anger, but to harp on the same thing, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over... you see, it gets rather annoying.

 

I suggest to write a letter or try and book a meeting with dewan, tango, james, etc... and plea for them to manager the white sox. What you are looking (which you cannot get) for they can give you, along with a select few amount of other extremely knowledable people. Seriously, give them a ring.

 

I know, i know, i forgot to make an endless list of ''examples'' that you would would read and forget before you even finished reading them. Oops.

 

*I just realized you called me an ''ozzie praiser'', but far the most classic thing you have said thus far.

Edited April 10, 2009 by qwerty

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm so glad qwerty is back. That was an excellent post.

[TheBigHurt]

People tend to forget all good and remember the bad, it is human instinct. I have yet to see you recall a good decision, whether ''gut instinct'' or stats were involved. The game of baseball since the beginning of time has for the most part been based off of instincts, whether you like it or not, sabermetrics are yet to take the turn for the better, though they will in my life time. Sabermetrics are currently still very underground, but slowly they will become mainstream, as in to keep up with the sport and not be hiding under a rock... people will need to know what certain stats mean, and what a certain situation calls for. Espn, which is a network that only makes you dumber the more you watch (i only watch baseball tonight for the highlights, on mute), finally has the starting pitchers average velocity on their pitches, and that is the very tip of the iceberg. This information has been available for too long for the main sports network in the world to be behind as much as they are.

 

The game of baseball since the beginning of time has been based off of gut instinct, whether you think it is right or not. To put it very simple what you see with ozzie is what you will get from 90% of the other managers around baseball. Does that make it right? No. Only scioscia, gardenhire, and francona, in that order, manage the game to the point of excellence, and believe it or not they are still wrong many times.

 

I am in no way try to cover up the wrong things ozzie does, i just have the belief that if you can rehash every bad decision you believe ozzie to have made (or others even) that you can point out one tiny thing that he may have done to win a game. Another fact that is not well known (seemingly) is that the vast majority, easily 95% (likely even a higher percentage) of the game, is in the players hands, they are the ones actually physically playing the game afterall, shocking, i know.

 

You tell me to use ''examples'' of the good managerial decisions ozzie has made in the past... but i know a lost cause when i see one, and if this isn't i don't know what is. I can give you countless counter arguements, but it would be pointless. '' Well, well, well this one time ozzie did this... and we lost because of that... etc'' Like i said i have seen it all before. This is the longest running topic in soxtalk history for a reason and it is not changing in the near future, maybe due to people not accepting the realization that things are not changing anytime soon, as we as fans cannot alter it, it is out of our hands.

 

I understand venting your anger, but to harp on the same thing, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over... you see, it gets rather annoying.

 

I suggest to write a letter or try and book a meeting with dewan, tango, james, etc... and plea for them to manager the white sox. What you are looking (which you cannot get) for they can give you, along with a select few amount of other extremely knowledable people. Seriously, give them a ring.

 

I know, i know, i forgot to make an endless list of ''examples'' that you would would read and forget before you even finished reading them. Oops.

 

*I just realized you called me an ''ozzie praiser'', but far the most classic thing you have said thus far.

 

 

*Shrugs* Hey, man... I'm not trying to change anything, I'm not holding up a "Fire Ozzie" sign. I just get really annoyed when our play suffers because of an absolutely idiotic decision he makes and then I read posts where people brand him as an excellent manager. All I'm trying to say is that I see a lot of denial about these things. It just annoys me that people try to make up ridiculous points to try and deny it or make it seem okay, that's all.