And that's a Corpse Ball loser!!

[Y2HH]

I disagree, I think his bat speed is perfectly fine, in fact at times he is a little too quick through the zone. He needs to wait on the pitch a bit more IMO.

 

And BTW, I know you havent seen him hit at every level since he was drafted so the "ever has been" is a pretty bad generalization.

 

He's cheating right now, which is why his bat is through the zone if the pitch happens to be an off speed -- meaning even he thinks his bat speed is down, otherwise why is he swinging so early? That said, I think his bat speed is fine, too...I just thing he's trying to uppercut too much -- his double in the 9th today looked like the first pitch he didn't try to uppercut, and it worked.

[jenksycat]

More than half our lineup has speed yet people are still calling us "slow." Its a bad cop out by people that are just frustrated with 2 of the probably 60+ losses we will have this season.

 

yeah, i don't get it. People need to start using some god damn common sense, jesus.

 

Would you rather have our bats be a little slow to start or have out pitcing give up 8 runs a game? Me personally, I'll take lights out pitching since the hitting will come around eventually.

 

People seem to not realize how special our pitching staff seems to be right now: A solid 1-2-3, and possibly a solid 4-5 with a 6 ready and waiting. One of the best closers in the game, one of the best lefty/setup men in the game, a solid longman/6th starter, and between Dotel/Linebrink another solid 7th or 8th guy. What other f***ing team can say that?

 

I don't even like talking about how sick our pitching looks because I don't want to jinx (or is it Jenks?) them. Our hitting will come around, and when it does, we will have a special team.

[joejoesox]

People seem to not realize how special our pitching staff seems to be right now

 

we're tied for first in the MLB in strikeouts, with 2 other teams.

 

those 2 other teams have played a game more than we have.

 

we have the second best ERA in all of baseball behind... the royals.

 

yeah sample size, i know

[Y2HH]

Don't get me wrong -- I'm happy with our pitching...very happy...so far, anyway.

 

I just don't like the fact we can't find a legit #1 or #2 hitter that can make contact or lay down a bunt when it's necessary. I don't even care if our leadoff hitter was fast, just as long as he knows how to lay down a bunt, take a walk, not K, etc. If we had that, I'd be fine with the slower middle of the order power guys -- but we don't. So right now what we have to do is hope one of those guys hits a HR, much like last year (so far anyway), but again, this has only been three games.

 

Oh, and I'm very happy with Getz as leadoff, so maybe this will all change if he finds his groove -- now let's hope he stays there. Then we have to figure out what to do with the 2 hole. We need someone that understands how to move a runner over and make contact.

 

But it doesn't mean I can't call a code blue and vent.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Y2HH

[jenksycat]

It's not just a speed thing -- but a type of hitter thing. The point is, in 2005, we didn't *have* to hit HR's to win...on the days the HR's didn't come, we found ways to score with singles, steals, SUCCESSFUL sac bunts, etc....we aren't doing that now, we didn't do it last year, and when we do it now it's by accident because this team lacks fundamentals at the plate. Maybe that's how people see it this way. And the biggest way we were different in terms of speed in 05, was Pods was on base a LOT, and he was causing havok to opposing pitchers who were worrying more about him stealing than making a good pitch. We have "some" speed on the team now, but we have no downright scary speed. And Gooch was pretty fast, he stole some bases, but most of all...he knew how to adapt to hit #2 -- and he did it very well. I really don't know how you could question any of this. In 05 we had a legit #1 #2. We haven't since.

 

And this whole list of yours is meaningless: Everyone from 05 still on this team is 4 years older than they were in 05, everyone is now 4 years slower. And none of us saying this are even comparing position to position speed based on 05 vs 09 -- it's just an OLD slow team now for the entire middle of the base clogging order.

 

Pods alone makes the 05 team faster than this entire team combined.

 

Yes, pitching won for us in 05, so did timely hitting, laying down the bunt when we needed it, and getting the big HR when it mattered. Right now the only thing we can rely on is getting the HR, because we can't bunt, we can't steal...and no opposing pitcher is afraid of us doing so.

 

And that right there is where your entire argument loses any sort of validity with me. Pods did not win us a ring. Pitching did, there is no other argument against it.

 

Better OBP, BA, HR, TB, RBI, R in 2008 over 2005....Guess what was better in 2005 over 2008.....drumroll......every pitching statistic.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Jenksy Cat

[qwerty]

I disagree, I think his bat speed is perfectly fine, in fact at times he is a little too quick through the zone. He needs to wait on the pitch a bit more IMO.

 

And BTW, I know you havent seen him hit at every level since he was drafted so the "ever has been" is a pretty bad generalization.

 

 

I have most definitely seen him since he was brought up. He was very highly touted, #22 in 2005 and the #20 rated prospect in all of baseball in 2006. The internet is also a great source to see things you never else would have had the oppurtunity to, which i take advantage of (minor league at-bats). I will admit i have not seen the majority of minor league at-bats, that would be asinine to claim.

 

 

If you anticipate off speed and something hard is thrown you will be too quick. I feel that has been the case throughout the first three games. Others have noticed his reduced bat speed throughout spring, so i know i am not imagining it. I could very easily be incorrect though. But like i said, it could really be as simple as anticipating the wrong pitch at the wrong time, he will get his timing back, all great hitters regain their form, and i believe he has the potential to be a great hitter long term. Even if his bat speed is perfectly fine like you and dick allen believe, which may be the case, i just don't see it. Quentin's wrist is not 100%, i feel that is noticeable by him not being able to check up one pitches he would have with ease last season. Then again it may be more serious, it may be less serious, no one truthfully knows other than quentin himself. Only time will tell.

Edited April 10, 2009 by qwerty

[caulfield12]

Well, look at the first game....Fields bunted and was successful.

 

We're starting to mix in the type of players (Lillibridge, Getz, Fields) who can run a bit or at least not clog up the basepaths. When Ramirez and Quentin get their strokes back, the offense will have an entirely different feel and look.

 

Everyone knows Dye is getting older...he just doesn't have much range (more like a Frigidaire) anymore in RF. Our weaknesses are pretty glaring and obvious, like holding on runners and/or AJ throwing anyone out. Guillen is just not a basestealer...and it was a bang-bang play, even if Ramirez came up with the throw and made the tag simultaneously.

 

I think from KW's perspective, they are now looking at Shelby and/or Danks as the future CFer and leadoff man, but they're going to have to come up with a "band-aid" solution to get us through 2009. AJ batting 2nd isn't ideal, either.

 

Of course, there will be cries and uproar every night that Mr. Beckham goes 4/6 and drives in the winning run for him to be recalled to liven up the offense.

Edited April 10, 2009 by caulfield12

[almagest]

I swear I remember reading something about Quentin's wrist still bothering him occasionally, in extended BP or after a game or something. I'd imagine this cold weather isn't helping it much. If this is the case, I'd bet it's a reason why his bat seems slower.

[Jordan4life_2007]

As a fan, I can accept getting stymied by Meche/Greinke. They're two of the top pitchers in the division. Kyle Davies? Unacceptable. Unfortunately, we're probably going to see a lot of this all year.

[caulfield12]

If you remember, Davies owned us the last two times he pitched against us in 2008, when we REALLY needed to win those games in the heat of a pennant race and couldn't come through.

 

He has good stuff and he's only 25, it's just that he put too much pressure on himself and too much was expected of him at an early age with all those Braves' veterans around, he just didn't handle things well. It's hard for young pitchers to come up and perform as rookies when their teams are under pressure year after year to contend or be in 1st place (we've seen the affect of this with breaking in White Sox prospects, 2007 was the only year we could just be really patient, we had no other choice and no other options besides A. Gonzalez and Wasserman).

 

Now if we had looked like this against Sidney Ponson and Horacio Ramirez, there might be a few more reasons to be concerned.

 

As far as Quentin and Ramirez go...they're both stuck in-between. They're cheating to get a head start on the fastball but way too overanxious to put a curveball in play. Same thing with Wise. It's not a question of bat speed with Alexei certainly, it's just that they're both going through some tough times mentally. Instead of swinging freely, they look like they're guiding or feeling with the bat instead of taking normal swings (especially Wise).

Edited April 10, 2009 by caulfield12

[BearSox]

Everybody says this s***...and I just don't see it. How was '05 different from '09 speed lineup wise?

 

2005 Speed/non slow - LF, CF, 2b

 

2009 Speed/non slow - LF, CF, 2b, SS, 3b

 

Fields is faster than Crede - 09

Xei is faster than Uribe - 09

Getz is faster than Gooch - 09

Wise/Anderson is faster than Rowand - 09

Pods was faster than TCQ - 05

Thome vs. Everett/Hurt = wash

AJP, Dye, PK were never "fast"

 

Those don't add up to us being "slower" this year.

 

We won the WS in 2005 because of pitching....thats all there is to it, Pods/Rowands "grindyness" did not win us a ring. We hit homeruns and our pitching shut everybody the f*** down, simple as that. People need to stop romanticizing that we were winning every game with a god damn bunt, steal, and suicide squeeze.....it did not happen like that.

The difference is no leadoff hitter, no center fielder, and (most likely) much weaker starting pitching.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The difference is no leadoff hitter, no center fielder, and (most likely) much weaker starting pitching.

 

Not to mention the best defense in baseball highlighted by three guys in Rowand, Crede and Uribe, who were arguably the best at their positions at the three most important defensive spots in the field that season.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Jordan4life

[greg775]

Quick ramblings. ...

-- To get that kind of pitching, it's embarrassing not to sweep them.

-- I do think the Royals are finally going to contend. I know that contradicts my first sentence.

-- I also don't like to see Bobby in non save situations.

-- As a fan, I'm sick of the Thome shift.

-- I hate to lose series at home. I just hate it. It almost seems like there's no sense of urgency sometimes to win games that aren't played in September.

I realize I contradict myself a bit here. It's just frustrating to open 1-2 at home.

[Y2HH]

And that right there is where your entire argument loses any sort of validity with me. Pods did not win us a ring. Pitching did, there is no other argument against it.

 

Better OBP, BA, HR, TB, RBI, R in 2008 over 2005....Guess what was better in 2005 over 2008.....drumroll......every pitching statistic.

 

Um, I never ONCE said Pods was the reason we won the ring, he was merely one of the many reasons. If you can't score, you can't win -- no matter how dominant your pitching is/was. The biggest difference was Pods was a leadoff hitter, and Gooch was an exceptional #2 hitter who knew what to do and when to do it, and more often than not, if you needed either of them to lay down a sac bunt, they did.

 

And while you may be right about the OBP, BA, HR, TB, RBI and R in 2008 -- you're leaving out something very VERY important...consistency. While we only scored 2-3 runs a game in 05, we did that EVERY game...last year we'd score 1 run, 2runs, 0 runs, 15 runs, 2 run, 1 run, 0 runs, 18 runs. That will eventually add up to higher stats, but it does nothing for consistency. So far this year, we've put up a massive 5 runs in 3 games, which means the 12 run game is inbound, where we win 10-1, then it'll look like we score a lot on paper, even though we don't.

[Y2HH]

-- As a fan, I'm sick of the Thome shift.

 

As a fan, I'm sick of Thome not learning to go the other way, since the Thome shift works...a LOT. And I know we don't pay him for base hits, and he's there to pull the ball, but come on -- they're cutting off a ton of his hitting area with this shift, while leaving the ENTIRE left side open.

[Melissa1334]

Quick ramblings. ...

-- To get that kind of pitching, it's embarrassing not to sweep them.

-- I do think the Royals are finally going to contend. I know that contradicts my first sentence.

-- I also don't like to see Bobby in non save situations.

-- As a fan, I'm sick of the Thome shift.

-- I hate to lose series at home. I just hate it. It almost seems like there's no sense of urgency sometimes to win games that aren't played in September.

I realize I contradict myself a bit here. It's just frustrating to open 1-2 at home.

they dont have a 4th or 5th starter and yet theyre going to contend? if we had ponson and ramirez as our 4,5 everyone here would say were not contenders lol

[bjm676]

If it's any consolation, Swisher went 3 for 5 with a HR and 5 RBI for the Yankees.

[Y2HH]

If it's any consolation, Swisher went 3 for 5 with a HR and 5 RBI for the Yankees.

 

Swish started out pretty hot for us last year, too. I think he had like a 500 OBP for us for the first three weeks before he forgot how to swing at called third strikes dead red.

[ScottyDo]

As a fan, I'm sick of Thome not learning to go the other way, since the Thome shift works...a LOT. And I know we don't pay him for base hits, and he's there to pull the ball, but come on -- they're cutting off a ton of his hitting area with this shift, while leaving the ENTIRE left side open.

Okay so what, Thome gives up on power for a few games, gets maybe three base hits off grounders the other way, teams stop using the shift, and that results in something like 10 extra singles for the year?

 

I don't see how it's worth him changing his entire approach at the plate to get a few extra singles.

 

And they're not taking away an entire half of the field, they're taking away an entire half of the infield that he shouldn't be using anyway. He goes oppo pretty frequently, but it's for power.

 

Anyway, we're not doomed. This lineup isn't as bad as it was in this series and if we looked at it objectively, we'd know that to be true. It's a pretty decent lineup, let's not kid ourselves.

[Y2HH]

Okay so what, Thome gives up on power for a few games, gets maybe three base hits off grounders the other way, teams stop using the shift, and that results in something like 10 extra singles for the year?

 

I don't see how it's worth him changing his entire approach at the plate to get a few extra singles.

 

And they're not taking away an entire half of the field, they're taking away an entire half of the infield that he shouldn't be using anyway. He goes oppo pretty frequently, but it's for power.

 

Anyway, we're not doomed. This lineup isn't as bad as it was in this series and if we looked at it objectively, we'd know that to be true. It's a pretty decent lineup, let's not kid ourselves.

 

Oh, I know we aren't doomed...I'm sure our offense will be fine as the weather heats up. I'd just like to see them find more ways to score than sitting on the long ball is all...I'm sure they'll get it together, I just want them to do it before we dig too big of a hole.

 

And as for Thome, if he started going to the other way, he'd cause them to stop using the shift, and his average would rise dramatically. Not only are they shifting the entire infield, but they're also playing a deep RF and a shallow RF cutting off a lot of his hitting area, the ball almost has to be placed perfectly to drop OR it has to be a HR. To say they'd only be singles if he went opposite field is generous, since they basically have no 3B or LF, he could easily get doubles out of that.

[Balta1701]

As a fan, I'm sick of Thome not learning to go the other way, since the Thome shift works...a LOT. And I know we don't pay him for base hits, and he's there to pull the ball, but come on -- they're cutting off a ton of his hitting area with this shift, while leaving the ENTIRE left side open.

Big Jim is going to the Hall of Fame and people have been shifting him for well over a decade.

[Balta1701]

[caulfield12]

Funny cartoon...they should also have a "?" for leadoff hitter, just to make it completely accurate.

 

And maybe Brian Anderson's cute "Greatest American Hero" head asking "Can I play, too?" with a cartoon bubble.

 

As for Thome, when he does hit to the opposite field with power, 70-80% of the time it's a home run to LCF. There's just no way you can change the aggressive nature of a hitter like that who swings at 100% every time and turn him into Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, Ichiro or Luis Polonia, flipping soft liners into LCF. Then everyone would be saying why are we paying a DH $13 million to have a 775-825 OPS and drive in 65-75 runs?

[CanOfCorn]

Big Jim is going to the Hall of Fame and people have been shifting him for well over a decade.

 

Minus the humungous noggin, Barry Bonds got the shift and he still hit for average. That's when he wasn't 'roiding them out of the park. For the non-roiders...there's Edgar Martinez. He got the shift and still hit .300.

[caulfield12]

If you ask most baseball scholars and reporters/media, they would take Jim Thome for the Hall of Fame over Edgar Martinez. Having said that, Edgar SHOULD make it, if not on the first ballot, sometime in the next 2-3 years.

 

And Bonds won't ever make it in...in fact, all the inflated HR numbers has made it a bit more difficult for some of the other players who weren't accused of cheating, like a Jeff Bagwell, to make it. It's so difficult to know who was doing what, exactly.

 

At any rate, Edgar was a professional hitter in the same way Harold Baines was, but NOT a slugger. Thome's in a different category.