Will White Sox fans also boo BA if he goes 0/8?

[fathom]

The way people treated Uribe comes to mind.

 

Uribe's defense in the infield is as good as Anderson's defense in the outfield.

 

And both has similarily-frustrating at-bat performances.

 

Uribe got paid 5 million dollars to be a bench player last year, and fans never turned on him. Uribe's a poor example.

[Kyyle23]

Well this is where I differ from the southsidedon posts because Dye being traded at this age has no bearing on anything.

 

 

 

I'm white, and I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of franchises have a situation where there are second or third tier talent white players that are seen as this hardworking, grinder class......

 

.....and there are players of color that fit that same bill and aren't embraced as easily.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with those that say Crede has taken his lumps on this board - I guess my point is less in reference to the people posting here as opposed to the people booing at US Cellular. I think the type of person that posts here is (in many cases) different than the majority of US Cellular attendees. This is just a feeling I get though.

 

 

 

 

Also I'm kind of surprised that so few people here want to touch the topic, some saying send it to Filibuster. I dont see the danger in merely talking.

 

 

You act as if you do not know that race issues are inflammatory. The filibuster was created for discussion of many different inflammatory topics, and this is very close to becoming one of those topics. Palehose talk doesnt need this type of thread cluttering up the works

[NorthSideSox72]

The way people treated Uribe comes to mind.

 

Uribe's defense in the infield is as good as Anderson's defense in the outfield.

 

And both has similarily-frustrating at-bat performances.

And this board, and fans as a whole, were seeing Uribe as exactly that - he was loved by the fans, his defense was talked up big time, his hitting not so much. Uribe is a perfect of example of a lack of racism, not the presence of it.

 

[SouthsideDon48]

You just said the board behaves in a racist fashion. How do you NOT expect that to create some negative reactions?

 

Well I didn't explicitly call anyone out or drop any names or anything. I was extra careful not to do that.

 

And as for the biased vs. racism point, I guess it's more appropiately comparable to the prejudice vs. racism point. It's just that some people, not all, has inherent behaviors towards things, all things in general, it's just how people are wired. It's basic sociological observations.

[southsider2k5]

Uribe got paid 5 million dollars to be a bench player last year, and fans never turned on him. Uribe's a poor example.

 

Agree 100%. We were begging for him to take over 3B for most of the year after Crede went south, and that is dispite the horrible hitter that he has been for years.

[lostfan]

Uribe got paid 5 million dollars to be a bench player last year, and fans never turned on him. Uribe's a poor example.

I admit I was a big Uribe hater, but Uribe's a poor example because he was a horrible offensive player (albeit admittedly at one time an elite defensive player) year after year, saved only by the fact that he ran into about 20 pitches a year that left the park. It was a gradual thing too, I don't recall people hating Uribe in 2005, 2006. You don't see fans hating Alexei Ramirez because he doesn't suck. Have him bat .235 without getting on base for a couple of years and see how that goes, though.

[Princess Dye]

Because, again, Dweezy has been playing professional baseball for 15 years and has had no success at it. Getz is basically a rookie. BIG difference in where they stand. People can put up with "growing pains", they can't put up with proven "crap" - and I'm talking on a professional baseball playing ability.

 

But if people are booing the front office for not getting a Coco Crisp, if that is what people are arguing...

 

...then they should boo both "growing pains" and "unproven crap"

 

 

 

 

SouthsideDon and myself have both said the following: We're not calling anyone racist. Put words in our mouth if you want.

 

Here I am, I'm white and I consider myself a well-intentioned guy. I still find myself thinking along racial lines at certain times. I cant help it. I'm saying the fans did this as well with Wise and then heard each other kind of letting out a boo after TWO at-bats...and it reached a groundswell. Pretty soon it was happening each at-bat.

[southsider2k5]

I think he was going more along the lines of "favoritism" than negative bias.

 

Um, Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez (until he lied about the organization and to the organization), Alexei Ramirez, and Ozzie Guillen come to mind instantly as players with huge followings while they were here. If that was the intent, I still call BS.

[fathom]

I'm about as passionate as it comes when talking about Sox players and criticizing them. Not one time have I thought "well, Billy Koch is white, so we shouldn't despise him".

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Well I didn't explicitly call anyone out or drop any names or anything. I was extra careful not to do that.

 

And as for the biased vs. racism point, I guess it's more appropiately comparable to the prejudice vs. racism point. It's just that some people, not all, has inherent behaviors towards things, all things in general, it's just how people are wired. It's basic sociological observations.

 

 

So first it wasnt racism, it was bias.

 

Now, it's still not racism, it's prejudice.

 

Hello! Racism is prejudice based on race.

 

Unreal.

[Princess Dye]

You act as if you do not know that race issues are inflammatory. The filibuster was created for discussion of many different inflammatory topics, and this is very close to becoming one of those topics. Palehose talk doesnt need this type of thread cluttering up the works

 

In Germany, there's actually a penalty for how much you talk about the Holocaust. It's a free speech restriction made in hopes of bettering their society and repairing things.

 

I just wonder how anyone learns about it if they're afraid to speak.

[lostfan]

Well I didn't explicitly call anyone out or drop any names or anything. I was extra careful not to do that.

 

And as for the biased vs. racism point, I guess it's more appropiately comparable to the prejudice vs. racism point. It's just that some people, not all, has inherent behaviors towards things, all things in general, it's just how people are wired. It's basic sociological observations.

I actually don't have a problem with making those kinds of observations, after all, it's not the first time I've discussed racism (see Filibuster). I just think the logic you used to reach this conclusion is BS, non-existent even (hence the big negative reaction).

[lostfan]

In Germany, there's actually a penalty for how much you talk about the Holocaust. It's a free speech restriction made in hopes of bettering their society and repairing things.

 

I just wonder how anyone learns about it if they're afraid to speak.

psh I'm not afraid to talk about racism. It's just there's a time and a place, and you better be prepared to back it up.

[NorthSideSox72]

But if people are booing the front office for not getting a Coco Crisp, if that is what people are arguing...

 

...then they should boo both "growing pains" and "unproven crap"

 

 

 

 

SouthsideDon and myself have both said the following: We're not calling anyone racist. Put words in our mouth if you want.

 

Here I am, I'm white and I consider myself a well-intentioned guy. I still find myself thinking along racial lines at certain times. I cant help it. I'm saying the fans did this as well with Wise and then heard each other kind of letting out a boo after TWO at-bats...and it reached a groundswell. Pretty soon it was happening each at-bat.

If Jeff DaVannon had been called up last year from Charlotte (where he was a AAA backup OF), and asked to lead off, because he was speedy and grindy (but was lousy at baseball), he'd have been booed the same exact way.

 

[southsider2k5]

Two perfect posts LF. Its one thing to spur valued discussion, its quite another when it has no real basis in fact.

[SouthsideDon48]

We did this already, and I went back and listed many of the players, coaches, and staff that are not "white" but have been loved by Sox fans wholeheartedly. You pretty much ignored the post back then, so I was hoping you dropped this silly notion, but I guess not.

 

Sox fans as a whole love Ozzie Guillen and hated Terry Bevington. You won't hear many fans who look fondly on the Ron Schuler era, yet Kenny Williams gets a whole lotta love around these parts. If it was just a white thing, explain the hate that Jon Garland used to get? You bring up Joe Crede, but I remember the days when his name was mud around these parts and people wanted him traded or released. If we judge races differently how come the most beloved player in White Sox history is Frank Thomas, and not Paul Konerko or Carlton Fisk? Why do the old timers still rave about Aparicio and Gary Peters? Why is Harold Baines number retired on the Sox wall, and not Robin Ventura? Why weren't Sox fans wearing Hory Kow T-shirts when Tadahito Iguchi or Shingo Takatsu was here?

 

Plainly put, your theory is castle of garbage build on sand. There is nothing to actually hold that trash up for any amount of time.

 

When was that post? I think I missed it.

 

Also, I was only basing my theory on two cases: BA/Wise and Crede/Dye. I feel those two cases are more relevant to the original question posed my Caulfield than bringing up other people from the history of the White Sox organization. Although, the Bevington/Guillen point is very valid.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

In Germany, there's actually a penalty for how much you talk about the Holocaust. It's a free speech restriction made in hopes of bettering their society and repairing things.

 

I just wonder how anyone learns about it if they're afraid to speak.

 

just like you just said "I didnt call anyone racist", Im going to turn that around on you and tell you that i didnt tell anyone that they couldnt talk about race issues. Like lostfan just said, there is a time and place for these things, and this thread and forum are neither.

 

And it doesnt look like anyone is afraid to talk race here. At all. Of course when you bringing up piss poor examples like Brian Scalabrine on the Celtics as your proof, its kind of hard to get a foothold in a decent conversation

Edited April 14, 2009 by kyyle23

[Kalapse]

I'm about as passionate as it comes when talking about Sox players and criticizing them. Not one time have I thought "well, Billy Koch is white, so we shouldn't despise him".

I think that's why Paul Konerko gets a pass in this town. Oh s***, wait.

[Princess Dye]

I actually don't have a problem with making those kinds of observations, after all, it's not the first time I've discussed racism (see Filibuster). I just think the logic you used to reach this conclusion is BS, non-existent even (hence the big negative reaction).

 

I dont think anyone really fully knocked down the Crede vs. Dye explanation I gave. No one really took apart what went on with Wise vs. Getz and their receptions. Someone tried but I dont know if it was enough to convince me.

 

If what I'm saying is so flimsy and without merit, I should be getting good explanations. Instead it's just anger.

 

People are coming up with some of the greatest White Sox hitters ever to knock down this argument, and mentioning Alexei's unreal rookie year with all those grand slams. But I think that's my point, that the untalented lovable grinder guy very often seems to be a white dude. Not always but it leans that way. I cant explain it but it's there.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Princess Dye

[fathom]

When was that post? I think I missed it.

 

Also, I was only basing my theory on two cases: BA/Wise and Crede/Dye. I feel those two cases are more relevant to the original question posed my Caulfield than bringing up other people from the history of the White Sox organization. Although, the Bevington/Guillen point is very valid.

 

I promise you this...if Konerko struggles this year and Brandon Allen destroys the minor leagues, fans will be clamoring for Allen and wanting Konerko shipped out of town.

[NorthSideSox72]

When was that post? I think I missed it.

 

Also, I was only basing my theory on two cases: BA/Wise and Crede/Dye. I feel those two cases are more relevant to the original question posed my Caulfield than bringing up other people from the history of the White Sox organization. Although, the Bevington/Guillen point is very valid.

And your Crede Dye example is manifestly wrong. Dye has a huge fan following, and is criticized less here than Crede was.

 

As for BA/Wise, just please, take a look at Wise's career results. You will quickly see why people were upset that Wise was leading off.

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

When was that post? I think I missed it.

 

Also, I was only basing my theory on two cases: BA/Wise and Crede/Dye. I feel those two cases are more relevant to the original question posed my Caulfield than bringing up other people from the history of the White Sox organization. Although, the Bevington/Guillen point is very valid.

 

I'm going to keep this quick and short

 

Wise:

 

31

Never had success in the majors

Tempered success in the minors

Below average arm

Average (at best) range in CF

Plus plus speed

Decent power

Not much room for growth/upside

 

BA:

 

27

Former 1st round draft pick

Rushed to the majors, never given a legit shot after initial failure

Good minor league/college numbers

Gold glove caliber CF

Average speed

Still possesses decent potential

 

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PLAYER JUST BECAUSE THEY PLAY THE SAME POSITION.

[lostfan]

I dont think anyone really fully knocked down the Crede vs. Dye explanation I gave. No one really took apart what went on with Wise vs. Getz and their receptions. Someone tried but I dont know if it was enough to convince me.

 

If what I'm saying is so flimsy and without merit, I should be getting good explanations. Instead it's just anger.

 

People are coming up with some of the greatest White Sox hitters ever to knock down this argument, and mentioning Alexei's unreal rookie year with all those grand slams. But I think that's my point, that the untalented lovable grinder guy very often seems to be a white dude. Not always but it leans that way. I cant explain it but it's there.

I replied to that and I said I just don't see it and explained why.

[fathom]

I dont think anyone really fully knocked down the Crede vs. Dye explanation I gave. No one really took apart what went on with Wise vs. Getz and their receptions. Someone tried but I dont know if it was enough to convince me.

 

It's easy...Dye was a FA signee, and Crede was an organizational guy we waited years to have come up and then he contributed for a good number of seasons. Wasn't he the first organizational starter we really developed in quite a while when he came up?

[caulfield12]

Well, this was brought up with the whole Crede "montage" thing and why they didn't do that for Frank Thomas...this was on the Score, they talked about it last Friday for the whole afternoon.

 

Maybe I am oversensitive to all the adoration for Anderson, Rowand and Crede over the last decade. While Thomas has been admired for his ability, I wouldn't say that "love" is quite there, not to the extent Sosa was "beloved" on the North Side until the last couple of seasons.

 

So I will take responsibility for pushing the thread in this direction towards, I just didn't come out and say it directly. Personally, I think it was some of the vitriolic and "near hatred" statements about Wise and Owens that bothered me specifically.

 

Psychology will tell you that people tend to identify with someone that is more like them...same color, height, physical attributes/characteriistics, someone that reminds them of themself? That's why you see quite a few Nash and Stockton jerseys, because there are so few white NBA players...and then those guys are short/er, so weekend players who fantasize about being a professional athlete, they rarely see themselves as Jordan/Bryant/LeBron James and certainly never as someone like Shaq.

 

I think in the same way, that size (and attitude, to some) has been held against players like Dick Allen and Thomas in the past.

 

When I look back at the last 15-20 years, my favorite player was probably Lance Johnson.

 

If memory serves me correctly, we were one of the first (if not first) teams to have an all-black/Hispanic starting line-up about 10 years ago, one of the times whe James Baldwin was on the mound and Charles Johnson was catching. We can't compare Chicago to Boston NBA and MLB teams that were maybe 5-15% minority (and it's not a coincidence that the Red Sox have done much better in the last 10 years with a true mixture of the best players from all around the world).

 

As far as Hispanic players treated poorly, there aren't as many examples. Ordonez and Lee left here under mixed circumstances, particularly Magglio. Valentin was very well liked. Players like Alvarez and Alex Fernandez were also very popular.

 

Recent Hispanic players? Well, Marte was run out of here by Ozzie, but that's because he lost his control and confidence completely. You could use the example of Cabrera from last year...although a lot of that was media-driven.

 

Also, I think there has to be a distinguishing between the way the media has mistreated/misquoted great Hispanic players in the past like Clemente or Juan Marichal and the "double standard" to protect the likes of Mickey Mantle from the public knowing about their lives off the field. Of course, this is also true of politics, as JFK was protected and then everything changed with Watergate and then Gary Hart/Donna Rice in terms of media coverage of sports and politics (leading today to Facebook and myspace pictures in almost direct time showing up of players smoking weed, partying, drinking, committing crimes, etc.)

 

As Hawk said, the pressure has changed from a 1/1.5 out of 10 to 7-8-9 out of 10 for today's professional athletes.

Edited April 14, 2009 by caulfield12