Will White Sox fans also boo BA if he goes 0/8?

[NorthSideSox72]

I dont think anyone really fully knocked down the Crede vs. Dye explanation I gave. No one really took apart what went on with Wise vs. Getz and their receptions. Someone tried but I dont know if it was enough to convince me.

 

If what I'm saying is so flimsy and without merit, I should be getting good explanations. Instead it's just anger.

 

People are coming up with some of the greatest White Sox hitters ever to knock down this argument, and mentioning Alexei's unreal rookie year with all those grand slams. But I think that's my point, that the untalented lovable grinder guy very often seems to be a white dude. Not always but it leans that way. I cant explain it but it's there.

You got good explanations, they just don't fit your view of things. Crede does not have some gigantic fan following that Dye doesn't, and in fact on this board, Dye comes off better than Crede. Getz is a ROOKIE who has done well in the minors, and his getting his first shot - that is entirely different than a 31 year old who has sucked for years.

 

[southsider2k5]

When was that post? I think I missed it.

 

Also, I was only basing my theory on two cases: BA/Wise and Crede/Dye. I feel those two cases are more relevant to the original question posed my Caulfield than bringing up other people from the history of the White Sox organization. Although, the Bevington/Guillen point is very valid.

 

How is what has happened in the recent and long past history of the Sox different than what is happening today? Did Sox fans just recently become racist, biased, prejusticed? These are mostly the same Sox fans that have been around forever. I don't see their general attitude changing towards more racist in the last couple of years.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I dont think anyone really fully knocked down the Crede vs. Dye explanation I gave. No one really took apart what went on with Wise vs. Getz and their receptions. Someone tried but I dont know if it was enough to convince me.

 

If what I'm saying is so flimsy and without merit, I should be getting good explanations. Instead it's just anger.

 

People are coming up with some of the greatest White Sox hitters ever to knock down this argument, and mentioning Alexei's unreal rookie year with all those grand slams. But I think that's my point, that the untalented lovable grinder guy very often seems to be a white dude. Not always but it leans that way. I cant explain it but it's there.

 

 

Wise is a 31 year old career minor league AAAA journeyman

 

Chris Getz is a 25 (?) year old rookie who was one of our top prospects the past couple years.

 

How can you really compare the two? They are in ENTIRELY different situations.

 

Look i'm all for analogies guys, but these analogies you two are trying to prove your point with are awful.

[rafacosta]

The way people treated Uribe comes to mind.

 

Uribe's defense in the infield is as good as Anderson's defense in the outfield.

 

And both has similarily-frustrating at-bat performances.

 

Yes, Uribe was treated like s*** so many times here. With comments like...Uribe is going to eat his family bc is something common from where he is from.

 

Please correct if I'm wrong but it was BA who went to Venezuela (or some Latin country) for Winter League and decided to leave in the middle of the season b/c he was getting sick due to the water? After that I remember Guillen was feeling disappointed at him. Ppl were criticizing Guillen over this...how can you criticize the coach for that? The player should go down there and show he deserves to play for his coach. Instead he comes back saying he was sick and blah blah...if you give somebody this opportunity he better shows he deserves.

[Princess Dye]

just like you just said "I didnt call anyone racist", Im going to turn that around on you and tell you that i didnt tell anyone that they couldnt talk about race issues. Like lostfan just said, there is a time and place for these things, and this thread and forum are neither.

 

And it doesnt look like anyone is afraid to talk race here. At all. Of course when you bringing up piss poor examples like Brian Scalabrine on the Celtics as your proof, its kind of hard to get a foothold in a decent conversation

 

Fair enough, I just think that going to the Filibuster is like saying lets kill it. I dont know a ton about how popular the filibuster is though. I would think a lot more people see something if it's here.

 

 

 

Scalabrine is the poster child for this element of sports fandom. There's no good reason for him to be hailed as he is.

[lostfan]

I think that's why Paul Konerko gets a pass in this town. Oh s***, wait.

Heh, I distinctly remember Konerko getting booed as he dipped below the Mendoza line, and I remember the thread about whether or not it was appropriate because of his status he's had until then. Fortunately Konerko's starting off hot this year (knock on wood).

[southsider2k5]

Well, this was brought up with the whole Crede "montage" thing and why they didn't do that for Frank Thomas...this was on the Score, they talked about it last Friday for the whole afternoon.

 

Maybe I am oversensitive to all the adoration for Anderson, Rowand and Crede over the last decade. While Thomas has been admired for his ability, I wouldn't say that "love" is quite there, not to the extent Sosa was "beloved" on the North Side until the last couple of seasons.

 

So I will take responsibility for pushing the thread in this direction to, I just didn't come out and say it directly. Personally, I think it was some of the vitriolic and "near hatred" statements about Wise and Owens that bothered me specifically.

 

Psychology will tell you that people tend to identify with someone that is more like them...same color, height, physical attributes/characteriistics, someone that reminds them of themself? That's why you see quite a few Nash and Stockton jerseys, because there are so few white NBA players...and then those guys are short/er, so weekend players who fantasize about being a professional athlete, they rarely see themselves as Jordan/Bryant/LeBron James and certainly never as someone like Shaq.

 

I think in the same way, that size (and attitude, to some) has been held against players like Dick Allen and Thomas in the past.

 

When I look back at the last 15-20 years, my favorite player was probably Lance Johnson.

 

If memory serves me correctly, we were one of the first (if not first) teams to have an all-black/Hispanic starting line-up about 10 years ago, one of the times whe James Baldwin was on the mound and Charles Johnson was catching. We can't compare Chicago to Boston NBA and MLB teams that were maybe 5-15% minority (and it's not a coincidence that the Red Sox have done much better in the last 10 years with a true mixture of the best players from all around the world).

 

As far as Hispanic players treated poorly, there aren't as many examples. Ordonez and Lee left here under mixed circumstances, particularly Magglio. Valentin was very well liked. Players like Alvarez and Alex Fernandez were also very popular.

 

Recent Hispanic players? Well, Marte was run out of here by Ozzie, but that's because he lost his control and confidence completely. You could use the example of Cabrera from last year...although a lot of that was media-driven.

 

Also, I think there has to be a distinguishing between the way the media has mistreated/misquoted great Hispanic players in the past like Clemente or Juan Marichal and the "double standard" to protect the likes of Mickey Mantle from the public knowing about their lives off the field. Of course, this is also true of politics, as JFK was protected and then everything changed with Watergate and then Gary Hart/Donna Rice in terms of media coverage of sports and politics (leading today to Facebook and myspace pictures in almost direct time showing up of players smoking weed, partying, drinking, committing crimes, etc.)

 

As Hawk said, the pressure has changed from a 1/1.5 out of 10 to 7-8-9 out of 10 for today's professional athletes.

 

You are completely 100% wrong when it comes to most Sox fans attitude towards Frank. Go back and read some old Soxtalk threads about him during his last few years here and see what happened whenever someone took a critical view of him. Frank Thomas was, and still is, worshiped by most Sox fans.

[Kyyle23]

Fair enough, I just think that going to the Filibuster is like saying lets kill it. I dont know a ton about how popular the filibuster is though. I would think a lot more people see something if it's here.

 

 

 

Scalabrine is the poster child for this element of sports fandom. There's no good reason for him to be hailed as he is.

 

if you think the buster is where threads go to die, then you need to browse it a little more often. There are some HUGE threads in that forum, and the discussion never ends

 

 

Again, your Scalabrine example just doesnt make sense. I barely even know who he is, and I certainly dont know that he has built up a boston fanbase. If this guy was such a clearcut example of racism that you see in sports, you would think that it would be talked up a little bit more.

[caulfield12]

Yes, Uribe was treated like s*** so many times here. With comments like...Uribe is going to eat his family bc is something common from where he is from.

 

Please correct if I'm wrong but it was BA who went to Venezuela (or some Latin country) for Winter League and decided to leave in the middle of the season b/c he was getting sick due to the water? After that I remember Guillen was feeling disappointed at him. Ppl were criticizing Guillen over this...how can you criticize the coach for that? The player should go down there and show he deserves to play for his coach. Instead he comes back saying he was sick and blah blah...if you give somebody this opportunity he better shows he deserves.

 

Uribe is another example...and this really was POIGNANT during the time where he was involved in the shooting/kidnapping/attempted ransom situation.

 

Someone brought this up yesterday, in terms of their attitude about Venezuela and an incident in Winter Ball...I can't imagine the same thing would be said about Canada or Japan/Korea....maybe even Cuba, DR or Puerto Rico. Is that because of the negative attitude towards Chavez or based on something factually different about Venezuela?

 

I've been in all those countries and lived in Colombia for one year, and Mexico, to me, is a lot more dangerous and 3rd world-ish.

 

The whole situation with BA, he contracted some type of bug/virus (or maybe it was food poisoning), but he was really sick. I think he lost 20-25 pounds, something pretty dramatic.

 

That was also the offseason that none of the Sox players started off very well and there was basically a mutiny against Razor Shines....in the Winter Leagues, if you don't perform (like DeWayne Wise) in as few as 2-3 games, then you will be released from your team. I think this happened with Borchard before.

 

At any rate, all of the White Sox players were considering leaving at the same time to show support for Shines, it was a huge disaster for the organization.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Uribe is another example...and this really was POIGNANT during the time where he was involved in the shooting/kidnapping/attempted ransom situation.

 

Someone brought this up yesterday, in terms of their attitude about Venezuela and an incident in Winter Ball...I can't imagine the same thing would be said about Canada or Japan/Korea....maybe even Cuba, DR or Puerto Rico. Is that because of the negative attitude towards Chavez or based on something factually different about Venezuela?

 

I've been in all those countries and lived in Colombia for one year, and Mexico, to me, is a lot more dangerous and 3rd world-ish.

 

The whole situation with BA, he contracted some type of bug/virus (or maybe it was food poisoning), but he was really sick. I think he lost 20-25 pounds, something pretty dramatic.

 

That was also the offseason that none of the Sox players started off very well and there was basically a mutiny against Razor Shines....in the Winter Leagues, if you don't perform (like DeWayne Wise) in as few as 2-3 games, then you will be released from your team. I think this happened with Borchard before.

 

At any rate, all of the White Sox players were considering leaving at the same time to show support for Shines, it was a huge disaster for the organization.

What? Uribe was accused of shooting an Italian naval officer - of course he got flak for it, as anyone would. You really think if Anderson did it he wouldn't be treated the same? Actually, since the culture in Latin American around these athletes is such that they are targets of all sorts of crap, Uribe was given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Uribe has been made fun of for his weight, not his hispanic background.

 

[caulfield12]

You are completely 100% wrong when it comes to most Sox fans attitude towards Frank. Go back and read some old Soxtalk threads about him during his last few years here and see what happened whenever someone took a critical view of him. Frank Thomas was, and still is, worshiped by most Sox fans.

 

 

There are the White Sox fans who grew up with Thomas from 1990-1998 and then the younger fans in their teens and twenties who tend to post more on these boards and have a lesser appreciation for him, because they never really saw in person or on TV how good he really was back then...they just heard about all the off-field stuff, the divorce, the bankruptcy, the sniping back and forth with KW and Manuel and the "he's an idiot" stuff.

 

But here, chisox.com, wsi, etc., I think it was about 75% really in Frank's corner and 25% saying "get him out of the way and move on" basically.

[Kalapse]

There are the White Sox fans who grew up with Thomas from 1990-1998 and then the younger fans in their teens and twenties who tend to post more on these boards and have a lesser appreciation for him, because they never really saw in person or on TV how good he really was back then...they just heard about all the off-field stuff, the divorce, the bankruptcy, the sniping back and forth with KW and Manuel and the "he's an idiot" stuff.

 

But here, chisox.com, wsi, etc., I think it was about 75% really in Frank's corner and 25% saying "get him out of the way and move on" basically.

As a 22 year old I can say that this is just 100% incorrect. I don't know about kids in their mid teens but nearly every Sox fan I know of the same age (including MANY on this board) attribute their White Sox fandom to Frank Thomas. The 2005/2006 offseason was one big love fest for Frank.

[caulfield12]

What? Uribe was accused of shooting an Italian naval officer - of course he got flak for it, as anyone would. You really think if Anderson did it he wouldn't be treated the same? Actually, since the culture in Latin American around these athletes is such that they are targets of all sorts of crap, Uribe was given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Uribe has been made fun of for his weight, not his hispanic background.

 

 

But sometimes there's no differentiating between a player's country/culture and the feelings that engenders.

 

I mean, if a white player from rural Mississippi or West Viriginia did something, would we be describing those places as almost like 3rd world countries?

 

People made fun of Boone Logan for his personality and accent, but not to the extent I've seen misconceptions about Latin America here. Cubano, of course, always raises this point...sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't.

 

My point is, people are making comments about players AND countries without having a very deep understand of either. That's what bothers me more than anything.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

In Germany, there's actually a penalty for how much you talk about the Holocaust. It's a free speech restriction made in hopes of bettering their society and repairing things.

 

I just wonder how anyone learns about it if they're afraid to speak.

 

There's strict laws on Holocaust denialism, but speaking about the Holocaust is unrestricted. Germans are very aware of that part of their history and make efforts not to whitewash it.

 

As a 22 year old I can say that this is just 100% incorrect. I don't know about kids in their mid teens but nearly every Sox fan I know of the same age (including MANY on this board) attribute their White Sox fandom to Frank Thomas. The 2005/2006 offseason was one big love fest for Frank.

 

I'm only 23 myself and my earliest baseball memories are of Frank Thomas hitting monster HR's.

 

The fans still love him, even if there's bad blood with the organization.

Edited April 14, 2009 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

There are the White Sox fans who grew up with Thomas from 1990-1998 and then the younger fans in their teens and twenties who tend to post more on these boards and have a lesser appreciation for him, because they never really saw in person or on TV how good he really was back then...they just heard about all the off-field stuff, the divorce, the bankruptcy, the sniping back and forth with KW and Manuel and the "he's an idiot" stuff.

 

But here, chisox.com, wsi, etc., I think it was about 75% really in Frank's corner and 25% saying "get him out of the way and move on" basically.

 

I have been a very active poster here since 2003, and I will say with complete certianty that there was no way that 25% of this board was against Frank. Especially in the pissing contests with Kenny Williams, I can't remember much of anyone who took KWs side of things. The backlash to the organization was very nasty both after the diminished skills clause was used, and after they started the back and forth namecalling. There might was a minority of people who recognized that it was time for Frank to move on because his skills had fallen off so far because of injury and age, but that is very different than wanting him out because he was not white. Soxtalk was at least 95% behind Frank when any of the controversies around him happened.

[Kyyle23]

But sometimes there's no differentiating between a player's country/culture and the feelings that engenders.

 

I mean, if a white player from rural Mississippi or West Viriginia did something, would we be describing those places as almost like 3rd world countries?

 

People made fun of Boone Logan for his personality and accent, but not to the extent I've seen misconceptions about Latin America here. Cubano, of course, always raises this point...sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't.

 

My point is, people are making comments about players AND countries without having a very deep understand of either. That's what bothers me more than anything.

 

I dont really remember a discussion of Uribes homeland being the issue when he was accused of shooting an officer. In fact I remember that the main issue on this board was that there was a possibility that the White Sox starting shortstop shot an officer and might land in jail like Ugueth Urbina.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

But sometimes there's no differentiating between a player's country/culture and the feelings that engenders.

 

I mean, if a white player from rural Mississippi or West Viriginia did something, would we be describing those places as almost like 3rd world countries?

 

People made fun of Boone Logan for his personality and accent, but not to the extent I've seen misconceptions about Latin America here. Cubano, of course, always raises this point...sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't.

 

My point is, people are making comments about players AND countries without having a very deep understand of either. That's what bothers me more than anything.

I've been to Mississippi, and West Virginia. I've also been to Haiti, and a few caribbean countries. And as bad as Mississippi is, no one in their right mind would think to describe it and Haiti (or the DR) in similar terms. OF course they are talked about differently - they are entirely different.

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

But sometimes there's no differentiating between a player's country/culture and the feelings that engenders.

 

I mean, if a white player from rural Mississippi or West Viriginia did something, would we be describing those places as almost like 3rd world countries?

 

How about no, because they arent...?

 

People made fun of Boone Logan for his personality and accent, but not to the extent I've seen misconceptions about Latin America here. Cubano, of course, always raises this point...sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't.

 

Name one.

 

My point is, people are making comments about players AND countries without having a very deep understand of either. That's what bothers me more than anything.

 

Really? Where?

 

Not trying to be a dick, but this post makes it look like you're just talking out your ass

 

[Princess Dye]

How about no, because they arent...?

 

Name one.

 

Really? Where?

 

Not trying to be a dick, but this post makes it look like you're just talking out your ass

 

You're not really responding to him with this post. There's no explanation here.

[lostfan]

You're not really responding to him with this post. There's no explanation here.

He didn't respond with anything substantive because the post he was quoting was basically drivel, that's what he was trying to say.

[Princess Dye]

Again, your Scalabrine example just doesnt make sense. I barely even know who he is, and I certainly dont know that he has built up a boston fanbase. If this guy was such a clearcut example of racism that you see in sports, you would think that it would be talked up a little bit more.

 

That's my whole point though. No one touches the reason behind his popularity. He's a monumentally untalented basketball player who is cheered by the entire crowd every time he puts up a shot. It's really something to witness if yr ever flipping around and see the Celtics in garbage time.

 

No one really touches on the reason for his popularity with a ten foot pole however. Thats where I wish we'd take the next step in discussion like this, nationwide that is. Talking more about what's unintentional but still a problem. Again this is something I see myself doing as well.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Princess Dye

[NorthSideSox72]

That's my whole point though. No one touches the reason behind his popularity. He's a monumentally untalented basketball player who is cheered by the entire crowd every time he puts up a shot. It's really something to witness if yr ever flipping around and see the Celtics in garbage time.

 

No one really touches on the reason for his popularity with a ten foot pole however. Thats where I wish we'd take the next step in discussion like this, nationwide that is. Talking more about what's unintentional but still a problem. Again this is something I see myself doing as well.

So far, the examples I am seeing here about supposed racism among White Sox fans are... Wise/Getz (which we thoroughly explained), Dye/Crede (which is manifestly untrue), and some Celtics basketball player.

 

That's it?

 

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

You're not really responding to him with this post. There's no explanation here.

 

Because he is making accusations about people here having misconceptions about Latin American countries, making fun of them and players because they are from them. I can not think of one instance when that is true so I'm asking him to name one. That's all.

 

It's easy to make statements like that without providing examples, all I'm doing is trying to get him to explain his post. Because frankly i think it's full of crap.

 

I was in Samana, DR last summer and let me tell you, you don't know poverty until you set foot in a place like that. Trying to compare the worst we have in places like Mississippi/West Virginia with places in Latin America just doesnt hold up.

 

[southsider2k5]

That's my whole point though. No one touches the reason behind his popularity. He's a monumentally untalented basketball player who is cheered by the entire crowd every time he puts up a shot. It's really something to witness if yr ever flipping around and see the Celtics in garbage time.

 

No one really touches on the reason for his popularity with a ten foot pole however. Thats where I wish we'd take the next step in discussion like this, nationwide that is. Talking more about what's unintentional but still a problem. Again this is something I see myself doing as well.

 

Let's talk about the NBA then... I see zero, American born white guys on this list.

 

Here are the top 10 selling jerseys in the NBA as of Jan 2009

 

Kobe Bryant - Los Angeles Lakers

Kevin Garnett - Boston Celtics

Lebron James - Cleveland Cavaliers

Chris Paul - New Orleans Hornets

Allen Iverson - Detroit Pistons

Pau Gasol - Los Angeles Lakers

Paul Pierce - Boston Celtics

Dwayne Wade - Miami Heat

Derrick Rose - Chicago Bulls

Nate Robinson - New York Knicks

[Princess Dye]

So far, the examples I am seeing here about supposed racism among White Sox fans are... Wise/Getz (which we thoroughly explained), Dye/Crede (which is manifestly untrue), and some Celtics basketball player.

 

That's it?

 

For the 3rd time it's not racism.

 

 

 

Wise/Getz was explained as people arent booing Getz because they are more patient about someone who has a higher ceiling.

 

But if it's a booing of front office decisions (as some claim), they should still be unhappy with an unproven guy being put in there. After all, they had similar recent AAA numbers.

 

Are we really to believe that those people booing in that stadium have this huge problem with Wise being 31? How much of the crowd knows his age? They want the Sox to win the game at hand.

 

 

 

 

 

Dye/Crede I dont remember being shut down, but I'd agree it's more of a close call. Crede is more popular than Dye amongst the garden variety US Cellular attendee. There's no discernible difference in personality, and if anything one has just been noticeably better and more important to the team's success.

 

Scalabrine simply brought up as the extreme of what we're talking about b/c of his unwarranted standing o's.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Princess Dye