More Beckham Gossip

[caulfield12]

Right, just like how Crede (who was projected by some to be the next Mike Schmidt) came up and raked immediately. Given that Beckham has only been using a wooden bat for a couple of months, I don't see why so many want him rushed into the bigs immediately.

 

 

Last time I made this argument using the examples of Crede and Rowand their relatively slow "adaptation" to the major leagues (or any Sox hitting prospects since Ordonez, Lee and Durham), I was told that's irrelevant and that Beckham will be the exception...that it's a "new era" of White Sox youngsters coming up and dazzling upon entrance to the big league arena.

 

 

[Kalapse]

Last time I made this argument using the examples of Crede and Rowand their relatively slow "adaptation" to the major leagues (or any Sox hitting prospects since Ordonez, Lee and Durham), I was told that's irrelevant and that Beckham will be the exception...that it's a "new era" of White Sox youngsters coming up and dazzling upon entrance to the big league arena.

Because Gordon Beckham is at all comparable to a meh prospect like Rowand? If you really want to make a comparison go back to Ventura who's probably the most comparable Sox prospect in semi-recent memory to Gordon Beckham. And if Gordon were to hit as well as Crede did during his first 200+ AB stint with the Sox I'd take it.

 

I'm also confused as to why Beckham needs to be compared to past Sox prospects (none of which were as highly regarded as Gordon) as opposed to someone like Ryan Zimmerman.

[BearSox]

Give Alexei until June. That's two months. If he starts to hit, no need to change anything. But if Alexei is still struggling and Beckham is raking, maybe the move would be necessary.

 

However, I think Alexei will heat up with the weather (not as good as last year, but above average) and Anderson will be decent enough to stay in CF.

[caulfield12]

Because Gordon Beckham is at all comparable to a meh prospect like Rowand? If you really want to make a comparison go back to Ventura who's probably the most comparable Sox prospect in semi-recent memory to Gordon Beckham. And if Gordon were to hit as well as Crede did during his first 200+ AB stint with the Sox I'd take it.

 

I'm also confused as to why Beckham needs to be compared to past Sox prospects (none of which were as highly regarded as Gordon) as opposed to someone like Ryan Zimmerman.

 

 

There's also the example of Joe Borchard.

 

All that aside, the problem is the pressure of playing in a media market like Chicago where the White Sox have consistently been a winning team (fighting in the upper reaches of the division, 1st to 3rd in almost all seasons except 2007), placing undue amounts of pressure on prospects such as Rowand, Crede and Borchard. You could probably add Brian Anderson to that list...although Borchard was the only one of those hitters at any point ranked in the Top 25-30 prospects in baseball.

 

Beckham is #8, or definitely a Top 10-20 level prospect at worst.

 

A more recent example, Alex Gordon, was allowed to play under almost no pressure with the Royals, and he still never has achieved at the level that was projected from him coming out of Nebraska.

Edited April 21, 2009 by caulfield12

[WCSox]

Because Gordon Beckham is at all comparable to a meh prospect like Rowand? If you really want to make a comparison go back to Ventura who's probably the most comparable Sox prospect in semi-recent memory to Gordon Beckham. And if Gordon were to hit as well as Crede did during his first 200+ AB stint with the Sox I'd take it.

 

I'm also confused as to why Beckham needs to be compared to past Sox prospects (none of which were as highly regarded as Gordon) as opposed to someone like Ryan Zimmerman.

 

Rowand was a first-round pick (selected before Mark Prior, actually). Not as highly regarded as Beckham, but pretty far from a "meh" prospect in my book.

 

I don't see how Beckham is comparable to a young Ventura, but not a young Crede. Joe wasn't drafted as high, but eventually became VERY highly-regarded as he tore up high-A, AA, and AAA. If you want to factor college into the equation, Ventura put in almost a full season in AA before earning a permanent spot in Chicago the following year. Given how horrible the Sox were '89, developing Ventura in the majors was an option, but they chose to let him develop him in AA instead.

 

Again, I don't see the reasoning behind pushing Beckham into the bigs ahead of schedule when Fields is playing relatively well and Alexei has already proven that he can hit at the ML level.

Edited April 21, 2009 by WCSox

[almagest]

Rowand was a first-round pick (selected before Mark Prior, actually). Not as highly regarded as Beckham, but pretty far from a "meh" prospect in my book.

Uhh... do you mean Mauer? Mauer/Prior went 1/2 in 2001. Rowand was drafted #35 overall in 1998.

 

[ozzfest]

please be true

[Balta1701]

Uhh... do you mean Mauer? Mauer/Prior went 1/2 in 2001. Rowand was drafted #35 overall in 1998.

Mark Prior was actually drafted in the 1998 draft as a Supplemental pick by the Yankees out of high school. He was picked #43 that year. He did not sign, and went on to college.

[WCSox]

Uhh... do you mean Mauer? Mauer/Prior went 1/2 in 2001. Rowand was drafted #35 overall in 1998.

 

No, I mean Prior. He was drafted out of high school at #43 overall by the Yankees in '98. They couldn't agree to terms and Prior went to USC.

 

[YASNY]

Because Gordon Beckham is at all comparable to a meh prospect like Rowand? If you really want to make a comparison go back to Ventura who's probably the most comparable Sox prospect in semi-recent memory to Gordon Beckham. And if Gordon were to hit as well as Crede did during his first 200+ AB stint with the Sox I'd take it.

 

I'm also confused as to why Beckham needs to be compared to past Sox prospects (none of which were as highly regarded as Gordon) as opposed to someone like Ryan Zimmerman.

 

If I remember correctly, Robin came up blazing with a 0 for 41 start.

[clyons]

If I remember correctly, Robin came up blazing with a 0 for 41 start.

 

I think it may even have been 0 for 43.

[caulfield12]

"While his 1990 rookie year was marred by an 0-for-41 slump and 25 errors"

 

Wikipedia.com

[Chet Lemon]

I'm sure someone has done a study...and that there is some statistical validity to the fact that players who come out of Latin America struggle more in the early months. Do you think it's coincidence Ramirez has looked atrocious in both April 08 and April 09? That Viciedo is struggling?

 

Why does Contreras pitch much better in the heat of the summer? Are all of these complete coincidences lacking in statistical validity?

 

In 2008, PK batted .217 pre-all star break and .270 post-all star break

In 2007, PK had an April OPS of .657, a May OPS of .757, a June OPS of .957, a July OPS of 1.075

 

He's obviously had major struggles in the cold weather for two straight seasons, and he's not from Latin America.

 

In 2008, Count had a combined 3.04 ERA for the months of Apr. and May. His combined ERA for the months of June and July was 7.73.

In 2006, Count had a combined 1.97 ERA for the months of Apr. and May. His combined ERA for the months of June, July and August was 5.75.

 

Yes, some years Count may pitch much better in the heat of summer and some years he will pitch much worse.

 

[caulfield12]

Yes, BUT...

 

You're also leaving out many important facts.

 

1) Konerko was fighting a hand/wrist and later an oblique injury at that time...early in the season...so obviously he would not do as well. Doesn't that follow?

 

2) Contreras was battling an injury after that Reds game in May or June of 2006 that broke his consecutive victories streak. He would never be the same pitcher with the White Sox.

 

3) Contreras was also fighting through injuries/health concerns last year but did not take them to Cooper and Guillen...he tried to pitch through them.

 

All of those exigencies corrupt your example.

Edited April 23, 2009 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Yes, BUT...

 

You're also leaving out many important facts.

 

1) Konerko was fighting a hand/wrist and later an oblique injury at that time...early in the season...so obviously he would not do as well. Doesn't that follow?

 

2) Contreras was battling an injury after that Reds game in May or June of 2006 that broke his consecutive victories streak. He would never be the same pitcher with the White Sox.

 

3) Contreras was also fighting through injuries/health concerns last year but did not take them to Cooper and Guillen...he tried to pitch through them.

All of those exigencies corrupt your example.

 

again, an assumption. If Coop and Guillen didnt know, then how do you know?

[kapkomet]

Yes, BUT...

 

You're also leaving out many important facts.

 

1) Konerko was fighting a hand/wrist and later an oblique injury at that time...early in the season...so obviously he would not do as well. Doesn't that follow?

 

2) Contreras was battling an injury after that Reds game in May or June of 2006 that broke his consecutive victories streak. He would never be the same pitcher with the White Sox.

 

3) Contreras was also fighting through injuries/health concerns last year but did not take them to Cooper and Guillen...he tried to pitch through them.

 

All of those exigencies corrupt your example.

You distort everything to make your arguments - and most of it is not based on fact.

 

[RockRaines]

Im just really encouraged by BA at this point, which I think is getting lost in the back and forth debate of vets who will produce. If BA can continue to walk, hit the pitches he can hit and turn the lineup over, we may have something here.

 

And its funny the leadoff debates have stopped since Getz started elevating his game. That kid can play. He may never be a star, and may actually end up playing a utility role for most of his career, but one has to be encouraged by what they see.

[ThunderBolt]

No, I mean Prior. He was drafted out of high school at #43 overall by the Yankees in '98. They couldn't agree to terms and Prior went to USC.

You do realize that Prior when on to have an incredibly impressive college career, right? Thereby, making himself a mega-prospect, a level that Rowand never even sniffed at? How does this even equate?

[almagest]

No, I mean Prior. He was drafted out of high school at #43 overall by the Yankees in '98. They couldn't agree to terms and Prior went to USC.

So Rowand is better than a high school pitcher who didn't even sign with the team that drafted him that year, and was later a #2 overall pick at the same experience level as Rowand? I honestly don't see how that makes Rowand a good prospect. I agree that we shouldn't move Beckham up any time soon, though.

[almagest]

Im just really encouraged by BA at this point, which I think is getting lost in the back and forth debate of vets who will produce. If BA can continue to walk, hit the pitches he can hit and turn the lineup over, we may have something here.

This is the best approach I've seen from him... well, ever. Even when he was killing the ball he'd look bad at the plate. He's taking bad pitches, and swinging at the hittable ones, for the most part. He's probably still going to strike out a fair amount because of the holes in his swing, but if he keeps this up there's no reason not to play him every day.

 

And its funny the leadoff debates have stopped since Getz started elevating his game. That kid can play. He may never be a star, and may actually end up playing a utility role for most of his career, but one has to be encouraged by what they see.

He's hitting everything hard right now. I'm not sure if he can keep it up, and I think he needs to be more patient sometimes, but he's still better than anything we've had since 2005.

 

[RockRaines]

So Rowand is better than a high school pitcher who didn't even sign with the team that drafted him that year, and was later a #2 overall pick at the same experience level as Rowand? I honestly don't see how that makes Rowand a good prospect. I agree that we shouldn't move Beckham up any time soon, though.

Rowand wasnt really a good prospect. When he came up he was thought of as mostly a reserve player and the org was surprised at how well he handled CF to be honest. I dont think anyone expected him to become the player he was when he signed that contract with SF.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Yes, BUT...

 

You're also leaving out many important facts.

 

1) Konerko was fighting a hand/wrist and later an oblique injury at that time...early in the season...so obviously he would not do as well. Doesn't that follow?

 

2) Contreras was battling an injury after that Reds game in May or June of 2006 that broke his consecutive victories streak. He would never be the same pitcher with the White Sox.

 

3) Contreras was also fighting through injuries/health concerns last year but did not take them to Cooper and Guillen...he tried to pitch through them.

 

All of those exigencies corrupt your example.

 

 

Oh the irony...

 

You are the one who brought up the Latin American players example. He was pointing out examples to counter that claim.

 

And as for point #3...how do you know that?

 

Talk about manipulating an argument to try and make a point...

 

Oh, and exigencies?

Edited April 23, 2009 by ChiSox_Sonix

[YASNY]

Oh the irony...

 

You are the one who brought up the Latin American players example. He was pointing out examples to counter that claim.

 

And as for point #3...how do you know that?

 

Talk about manipulating an argument to try and make a point...

 

Oh, and exigencies?

 

In all honesty, though I don't agree with the basis of caufield's arguement, I do recall Ozzie commenting on the fact that Contreras held back info that he wasn't 100%.

[lostfan]

In all honesty, though I don't agree with the basis of caufield's arguement, I do recall Ozzie commenting on the fact that Contreras held back info that he wasn't 100%.

Yeah, and if I'm not mistaken, Ozzie came just short of saying he was mad at Contreras for not saying anything sooner.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

In all honesty, though I don't agree with the basis of caufield's arguement, I do recall Ozzie commenting on the fact that Contreras held back info that he wasn't 100%.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't recall ever hearing that.

 

Even if true though, Contreras having good stats in the early months was the main point, and that obviously doesn't have anything to do with an injury. That's all.