Bulls To Let Ben Gordon Go?

[nitetrain8601]

Well healthy, and even at his advance age, also a better player.

 

*Waits for the torch wielding Ben Gordon mob to tell me why he's better than a future hall of famer*.

 

I won't say better. Ben is equally as good as him though at this point in time. If Gordon ends up having a career like Ray Allen, I'd be super happy. I would take Ben over an older Ray Allen though if that's what you're asking.

[whitesoxfan101]

I won't say better. Ben is equally as good as him though at this point in time. If Gordon ends up having a career like Ray Allen, I'd be super happy. I would take Ben over an older Ray Allen though if that's what you're asking.

 

Hmm, ok.

[SoxFan1]

Allen > Gordon. Period. Give me a f***ing break people.

[MurcieOne]

Ben Gordon can score. That is literally the only thing he does above average (in his case way above average) as a basketball player. everything else is probably below average, passing, defense etc...

 

If we resign him, I won't be completely upset... but Pax should know what he's getting -- a guy who will score, never make an all-star game (which is fine) , and will be a liability on defense.

 

Ben is probably best as a sixth man (won the award his rookie year) but he wants to be a starter. Maybe it makes more sense considering the the system we run... but I really don't like watching the opposing SG completely light us up on the other end.

[nitetrain8601]

Allen > Gordon. Period. Give me a f***ing break people.

 

Ray Allen's career > Ben Gordon's career. In terms of production at this stage, they are very similar. Difference being that Allen plays with Paul Pierce and was playing with KG.

 

At this point in time, Ray Allen is not a better player. He is a worse defender. His assistant coach has a pretty damn good scheme. And that's coming from his #1 fan.

 

Ben Gordon can score. That is literally the only thing he does above average (in his case way above average) as a basketball player. everything else is probably below average, passing, defense etc...

 

If we resign him, I won't be completely upset... but Pax should know what he's getting -- a guy who will score, never make an all-star game (which is fine) , and will be a liability on defense.

 

Ben is probably best as a sixth man (won the award his rookie year) but he wants to be a starter. Maybe it makes more sense considering the the system we run... but I really don't like watching the opposing SG completely light us up on the other end.

 

Ben Gordon's offense is pretty damn good. Pretty damn efficient and one of the best shooters in the NBA period. Best part about it, he's not just a shooter, he's a scorer. His passing could use work, but overall, offensively, he's pretty damn great. He's also not a liability on defense. He is now being injured and not being able to fight through screens, but even a few Boston broadcasters were complementing Ben on his man on man defense and how he doesn't give up position. It's a soxtalk myth though, so I don't ever expect it to go away.

 

As far as being a starter, I'm pretty sure every good basketball player wants to be a starter. Have you ever played any sport and said, "Well, gee, I wish I was on the bench." Last, but not least, Gordon has said on record that he doesn't mind starting or coming off the bench as he knows he'll be getting his minutes anyway. So he'll do whatever as long as he could help his team win. Can you give me a quote stating where he publicly said he didn't want to come off the bench, or are these assumptions?

 

Also, I'd love to here how we are going to upgrade the SG position from Ben Gordon. The wrong side of 30 John Salmons who is going to want more money and ruin our cap in 2010 if we choose to keep him beyond that if he plays like he has pre-injury? Or maybe we'll trade for the 34 year old Raja Bell. Or are we pipe dreaming about Kobe again?

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

lso, I'd love to here how we are going to upgrade the SG position from Ben Gordon. The wrong side of 30 John Salmons who is going to want more money and ruin our cap in 2010 if we choose to keep him beyond that if he plays like he has pre-injury? Or maybe we'll trade for the 34 year old Raja Bell. Or are we pipe dreaming about Kobe again?

Resigning Ben Gordon also kills your 2010 cap space.

[MurcieOne]

It's a soxtalk myth though, so I don't ever expect it to go away.

 

If it is a myth - which I would say its not - than it expands far further than soxtalk. Every Bulls Beat writer/analyst consistently bemoans his below average defense ability. -- KC Johnson, who is probably Ben's biggest supporter will even tell you he has his deficiencies on defense.

 

That being said... I agree with you Ben Gordon has a special ability -- he can light it up when he gets hot. Ben doesn't even need much space to get off his shot and he is a great FT shooter. However, from my own observations I can't pretend like Ben is doing much on the defensive end. In reality its not fair to expect much from him because he is undersized, but still I think he is below average defensively.

 

As far as being a starter, I'm pretty sure every good basketball player wants to be a starter. Have you ever played any sport and said, "Well, gee, I wish I was on the bench." Last, but not least, Gordon has said on record that he doesn't mind starting or coming off the bench as he knows he'll be getting his minutes anyway. So he'll do whatever as long as he could help his team win. Can you give me a quote stating where he publicly said he didn't want to come off the bench, or are these assumptions?

 

I think Ben is a good professional, and anyone who questions his work ethic is crazy. The guy is in great shape and as seen in this series -- he will play through pain. I don't expect Ben to want to sit on the bench, and you're right I don't remember him specifically saying "I WANT TO START" I think the media kind of created the idea that he wanted to after his rookie season. For the most part I think Ben has been a good teammate, again look at how hard the guy trains -- he is pretty shredded.

 

Also, I'd love to here how we are going to upgrade the SG position from Ben Gordon. The wrong side of 30 John Salmons who is going to want more money and ruin our cap in 2010 if we choose to keep him beyond that if he plays like he has pre-injury? Or maybe we'll trade for the 34 year old Raja Bell. Or are we pipe dreaming about Kobe again?

 

Again, I wont be upset if we re-sign Ben... but if we don't I'm not going to cry either. Honestly, I'd like to see VDN leave and bring in a coach who cares more about stopping baskets on the other end. I think if you bring in a coach with a different philosophy and bring in a big man like Bosh (very possible) than you can survive without Ben's scoring ability. I can definitely live with Salmons at SG and Deng at SF.

 

In terms of ruining cap space -- Ben thinks he should make the most money on the team because he is the leading scorer (per KC Johnson). In this economy that probably won't happen, but if it were possible I think if Ben was our highest paid player we would have invested too much money in a one-dimensional player. Now that's not to say that Deng hasn't been a giant disappointment -- but that's a whole different thread.

 

 

 

[SoxAce]

It's a soxtalk myth though, so I don't ever expect it to go away.

 

No nite.. it's your myth that he's actually a good defender. Though I will disagree with some about his passing. It's actually pretty underated. His dribbling sucks though.

[nitetrain8601]

Resigning Ben Gordon also kills your 2010 cap space.

 

Well, that's why you have to clear Deng or both Salmons and Hinrich if you want to resign Gordon and still go after a big time FA. I fully expect almost all the FA's that year though, to resign with their teams.

 

If it is a myth - which I would say its not - than it expands far further than soxtalk. Every Bulls Beat writer/analyst consistently bemoans his below average defense ability. -- KC Johnson, who is probably Ben's biggest supporter will even tell you he has his deficiencies on defense.

 

That being said... I agree with you Ben Gordon has a special ability -- he can light it up when he gets hot. Ben doesn't even need much space to get off his shot and he is a great FT shooter. However, from my own observations I can't pretend like Ben is doing much on the defensive end. In reality its not fair to expect much from him because he is undersized, but still I think he is below average defensively.

 

I don't read much papers, but I have heard his teammates like Kirk(Bulls Convention Dinner at the UC), Scott Skiles, Del Harris and Bob Ociepka praise his man on man defense as being average to above average now where he isn't a liability anymore. I agree. Ben is not all-world defensively, I'll agree with that. He's not a liability either.

 

 

I think Ben is a good professional, and anyone who questions his work ethic is crazy. The guy is in great shape and as seen in this series -- he will play through pain. I don't expect Ben to want to sit on the bench, and you're right I don't remember him specifically saying "I WANT TO START" I think the media kind of created the idea that he wanted to after his rookie season. For the most part I think Ben has been a good teammate, again look at how hard the guy trains -- he is pretty shredded.

 

Agreed which I think is the biggest difference from him and a guy like Luol Deng or Tyson Chandler who have yet to improve on any other aspect. The guy is a gym rat.

 

 

Again, I wont be upset if we re-sign Ben... but if we don't I'm not going to cry either. Honestly, I'd like to see VDN leave and bring in a coach who cares more about stopping baskets on the other end. I think if you bring in a coach with a different philosophy and bring in a big man like Bosh (very possible) than you can survive without Ben's scoring ability. I can definitely live with Salmons at SG and Deng at SF.

 

In terms of ruining cap space -- Ben thinks he should make the most money on the team because he is the leading scorer (per KC Johnson). In this economy that probably won't happen, but if it were possible I think if Ben was our highest paid player we would have invested too much money in a one-dimensional player. Now that's not to say that Deng hasn't been a giant disappointment -- but that's a whole different thread.

 

As far as Salmons, I have no problems with him. The Larry Hughes shot selection comparisons are actually valid though. Difference is, he will take it to the hole a tiny bit more because he has better dribbles and Hughes' legs are shot. If he makes it though, I'm fine with that. The only problem I have with Salmons is, if he keeps up his production, you're going to have to give him a big contract on the wrong side of 30 which will ruin our capspace for 2010. I have no problems upgrading from Gordon. The only thing is, who is attainable that is a clear upgrade from Gordon and that will be relatively young?

 

From McGraw, I believe it is, he wanted to be paid because he feels he contributed the most to the team and thought he was one of the most, if not the most, important part of this team. He also stated back then, he wanted to be a captain as well.

 

 

No nite.. it's your myth that he's actually a good defender. Though I will disagree with some about his passing. It's actually pretty underated. His dribbling sucks though.

 

He's an average to slightly above average defender. His passing decisions are poor more times than anything else. He will try to dribble with two defenders on him at half court, and he'll end up jumping in the air, and having to throw a pass which allows other defenders to cheat and play the passing lanes. When he doesn't do that, he's very solid at passing. The thing is, I've seen him get stuck in a corner or at half court with such problems. His dribbling is okay. He has improved, but needs to improve even more if he ever wants spot minutes at PG. He's good at creating for himself and drawing defenders, but again if he ever wants to take it to that next level, he must improve. I like his quick passes when he has his feet on the ground and guns it inside. His passes are really really crisp.

 

[knightni]

You're seriously recommending dumping Salmons in order to re-sign Gordon?

[whitesoxfan101]

I don't know if the question is this black and white (and even if it is, it's not because have space doesn't guarantee you'd get either guy at all), but I'd rather have Chris Bosh or Amar'e Stoudemire long term starting in 2010-2011 than I would Ben Gordon long term starting this fall.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2009 by whitesoxfan101

[Balta1701]

I don't know if the question is this black and white (and even if it is, it's not because have space doesn't guarantee you'd get either guy at all), but I'd rather have Chris Bosh or Amar'e Stoudemire long term starting in 2010-2011 than I would Ben Gordon long term starting this fall.

If the salary cap goes down as far as I think it's going to, the only way we're going to have the space to go after one of those guys is to:

 

1. Move Hinrich for at least $3-4 million worth of deals that expire next year (aka we can take back a longer contract, but not for more than the MLE).

2. Move Deng and save the same amount (we could take back maybe $7-$8 million in longer term deals)

3. Renounce Tyrus Thomas while he's a restricted Free Agent in 2010.

 

You combine 1 of those with letting Gordon walk and you have 2010 cap space. Basically, my guess is we need to clear a couple million more dollars.

 

It's possible the Bulls could have 2010 cap space for a max deal currently...but that would mean that over the next 2 years, the Salary Cap has gone up from where it currently sits by just over $1 million, IIRC. I just don't think that's going to happen.

 

There's one other key option...do a deal for Bosh this offseason. If you move Hinrich or Deng in a deal for him you can probably make the contracts work, we're sitting on an extra pick or two, we have the rights to other guys we can move (Omer Asik?), we're holding expiring contracts for next season if they want some of that and...this is useful...if you can grab Bosh this offseason, you can potentially extend both him and Gordon without going significantly over the luxury tax for more than 1 season.

 

Given that we're not playing Tyrus down the stretch anyway and its even the bloody playoffs, why not try to package him with something and see if they'll bite.

[whitesoxfan101]

If the salary cap goes down as far as I think it's going to, the only way we're going to have the space to go after one of those guys is to:

 

1. Move Hinrich for at least $3-4 million worth of deals that expire next year (aka we can take back a longer contract, but not for more than the MLE).

2. Move Deng and save the same amount (we could take back maybe $7-$8 million in longer term deals)

3. Renounce Tyrus Thomas while he's a restricted Free Agent in 2010.

 

You combine 1 of those with letting Gordon walk and you have 2010 cap space. Basically, my guess is we need to clear a couple million more dollars.

 

It's possible the Bulls could have 2010 cap space for a max deal currently...but that would mean that over the next 2 years, the Salary Cap has gone up from where it currently sits by just over $1 million, IIRC. I just don't think that's going to happen.

 

There's one other key option...do a deal for Bosh this offseason. If you move Hinrich or Deng in a deal for him you can probably make the contracts work, we're sitting on an extra pick or two, we have the rights to other guys we can move (Omer Asik?), we're holding expiring contracts for next season if they want some of that and...this is useful...if you can grab Bosh this offseason, you can potentially extend both him and Gordon without going significantly over the luxury tax for more than 1 season.

 

Given that we're not playing Tyrus down the stretch anyway and its even the bloody playoffs, why not try to package him with something and see if they'll bite.

 

I'd be willing to do just about anything at this point to get Stoudemire or Bosh as long as Derrick Rose remains on the team. The Bulls played a lot better down the stretch, but this group as assembled isn't going sniff the NBA Finals, so i'm willing to try anything. I wonder if they could deal for Bosh and somehow keep Gordon this summer (seems doubtful.)

Edited May 2, 2009 by whitesoxfan101

[Balta1701]

I'd be willing to do just about anything at this point to get Stoudemire or Bosh as long as Derrick Rose remains on the team. The Bulls played a lot better down the stretch, but this group as assembled isn't going sniff the NBA Finals, so i'm willing to try anything. I wonder if they could deal for Bosh and somehow keep Gordon this summer (seems doubtful.)

I disagree, I think this group as assembled could easily develop in to a Finals team within 2 years, but I've been totally wrong on saying that about the Bulls before, so I can't even count on that assessment.

 

I didn't want Amare at the trade deadline, because I'm still not an Amare fan. But if there's anything the Bulls can do to pull off Bosh this offseason, this would be the time to do it. 2 first round picks, $10 million+ of expiring contracts for next year, Tyrus actually improving and rebuilding his trade value, and the Bulls not yet good enough that all of our picks will be after 25.

[whitesoxfan101]

I disagree, I think this group as assembled could easily develop in to a Finals team within 2 years, but I've been totally wrong on saying that about the Bulls before, so I can't even count on that assessment.

 

I didn't want Amare at the trade deadline, because I'm still not an Amare fan. But if there's anything the Bulls can do to pull off Bosh this offseason, this would be the time to do it. 2 first round picks, $10 million+ of expiring contracts for next year, Tyrus actually improving and rebuilding his trade value, and the Bulls not yet good enough that all of our picks will be after 25.

 

Not enough backcourt/wing defense and not enough frontcourt scoring among this current group to be a serious contender in my opinion. The hope for me is get Bosh or Amar'e, perhaps find a good wing defender in the draft, and hope Rose improves on defense.

Edited May 2, 2009 by whitesoxfan101

[Balta1701]

Not enough backcourt/wing defense and not enough frontcourt scoring among this current group to be a serious contender in my opinion. The hope for me is get Bosh or Amar'e, perhaps find a good wing defender in the draft, and hope Rose improves on defense.

My impression is that we've actually got guys who can develop in to that...especially if we can revive Luol Deng to anything close to what he was 2 years ago. If you can move Salmons back to SG instead of having no choice but to put him at SF, and you can use Deng as an 18/8 kind of guy in the front court who occasionally can create his own shot...oh, and you transplant someone else's brain in to VDN, then I think those problems will develop themselves away.

 

But like I said, I've been wrong before. Which is why the move for Chris Bosh is the one I'd be willing to make.

[whitesoxfan101]

My impression is that we've actually got guys who can develop in to that...especially if we can revive Luol Deng to anything close to what he was 2 years ago. If you can move Salmons back to SG instead of having no choice but to put him at SF, and you can use Deng as an 18/8 kind of guy in the front court who occasionally can create his own shot...oh, and you transplant someone else's brain in to VDN, then I think those problems will develop themselves away.

 

But like I said, I've been wrong before.

 

Well unless VDN suddenly changs philosophy, I don't see the team playing championship calibur defense, which is a big problem. I think Deng is definitely a wild card. BG is probably going to be gone regardless of how we feel about it (the market sucks right now between the economy and people waiting for 2010, but it only takes one team to fall in love and offer him a truckload of money), and if Deng can come back and just be even a 15/6 guy to go with Salmons at the 2, that would help. The problem for me is, despite his improvement, Salmons turns 30 early next season so I wonder how much longer he'll produce like he is right now, and at the same time, I think the team needs a true interior scorer at the 4 or 5. Fire VDN for a coach who cares about defense/has a clue in general and trade for Bosh this summer and I'd feel a lot better.

[nitetrain8601]

You're seriously recommending dumping Salmons in order to re-sign Gordon?

 

I've recommended dumping Deng in order to resign Gordon over dumping Hinrich and Salmons. And if you're asking, if I was only to keep only one of 27 year old(When Salmons is going to be a FA) Ben Gordon or 31 year old John Salmons, I'm going to go with Ben Gordon everytime. I would prefer to lose neither, but that's pretty unrealistic unless you are willing to not go after a big name FA or you dump Deng.

 

And again, if Salmons keeps this good play up, he's going to want a big contract, which he should. With Deng and Hinrich around, that still cripples some of your ability to resign a big name FA as Rose would be approaching a new contract, Noah would be too and you have to decide what you want to do with the rest of your squad.

 

All in all, the best thing for this team to do is get rid of Deng IMHO.

Edited May 2, 2009 by nitetrain8601

[nitetrain8601]

I don't know if the question is this black and white (and even if it is, it's not because have space doesn't guarantee you'd get either guy at all), but I'd rather have Chris Bosh or Amar'e Stoudemire long term starting in 2010-2011 than I would Ben Gordon long term starting this fall.

 

Agreed on all points. It really isn't black and white.

 

[jenksycat]

thank god we have gordon, i don't know where we'd be without him the last 2 games. I say 5 years 70 million this offseason, lets do it. BG = championship

[whitesoxfan101]

He's got to be the most frusterating player I've ever watched play for any of my teams. For that reason alone, I won't be sad at all if he leaves, even though replacing his scoring would be pretty much impossible to do at least next season. Ben really went back to his old ways in this series (it was the first time all season I thought he played selfish basketball) and that kind of put me over the top.

[GoodAsGould]

I've recommended dumping Deng in order to resign Gordon over dumping Hinrich and Salmons. And if you're asking, if I was only to keep only one of 27 year old(When Salmons is going to be a FA) Ben Gordon or 31 year old John Salmons, I'm going to go with Ben Gordon everytime. I would prefer to lose neither, but that's pretty unrealistic unless you are willing to not go after a big name FA or you dump Deng.

 

And again, if Salmons keeps this good play up, he's going to want a big contract, which he should. With Deng and Hinrich around, that still cripples some of your ability to resign a big name FA as Rose would be approaching a new contract, Noah would be too and you have to decide what you want to do with the rest of your squad.

 

All in all, the best thing for this team to do is get rid of Deng IMHO.

 

Dumping Deng is easier said than done, nobody wants that contract. What should have been done was the Kirk Hinrich salary dump to the T-Wolves, but Paxson didnt get it done.

[nitetrain8601]

Dumping Deng is easier said than done, nobody wants that contract. What should have been done was the Kirk Hinrich salary dump to the T-Wolves, but Paxson didnt get it done.

 

True, but apparently, Paxson thought that he could dump Hinrich in the offseason rather easily. If you think about it, he probably will be able to. Hinrich built his value up this playoff series.

 

As far as Gordon, though his shots weren't falling at the end, he led the team in assists and points and shot with a 56% TS. He did play like he was injured these past three games though. Honestly, I think if this team had an Amare or Bosh along with Rose and Gordon as foundations, we would be set.

[ChWRoCk2]

thank god we have gordon, i don't know where we'd be without him the last 2 games. I say 5 years 70 million this offseason, lets do it. BG = championship

I hope your kidding.

 

He is NOT worth that much. Not even 50 according to Ben last year after not accepting the Bulls deal.

 

I hope he walks. Theres plenty of talent in the upcoming offseason that we can live without him. He is such a selfish basketball player, he put up so many stupid shots and wasn't hitting them last night and yet we kept giving him the ball. If hes gonna come off the bench then ok let him come back but he better come cheap.

 

This draft is deep at the guard position that hes replaceable.

[nitetrain8601]

I hope your kidding.

 

He is NOT worth that much. Not even 50 according to Ben last year after not accepting the Bulls deal.

 

I hope he walks. Theres plenty of talent in the upcoming offseason that we can live without him. He is such a selfish basketball player, he put up so many stupid shots and wasn't hitting them last night and yet we kept giving him the ball. If hes gonna come off the bench then ok let him come back but he better come cheap.

 

This draft is deep at the guard position that hes replaceable.

 

This draft isn't deep at any position. It's the worst draft class this decade according to many scouts.