Contreras

[caulfield12]

The problem with that is games like last night that are very close when the move could have been made...are Carrasco, Egbert or Richard capable of going 2-3 innings and keeping the team in the game?

 

Last night, they definitely weren't, although Jose did himself no favors with his lack of control.

[NorthSideSox72]

The problem with that is games like last night that are very close when the move could have been made...are Carrasco, Egbert or Richard capable of going 2-3 innings and keeping the team in the game?

 

Last night, they definitely weren't, although Jose did himself no favors with his lack of control.

You seem to think that teams all over baseball have 7 shut-down relievers in their bullpens. They do not. Our bullpen is among the best, in the back 4. And the other three - currently Carrasco, Richard and Egbert - are no worse than what most teams have. And they can all go 3 innings. Guys who can do that, and are shut-down at it, are incredibly rare, and usually get converted into starters or late inning guys anyway.

 

Plus, with the fact that the other starters are all doing very well, they will go deep into games, so the bullpen can be saved a bit for covering Contreras/Colon.

 

Contreras (and possibly Colon) will lengthen out with time. No need to panic just yet.

 

[BigSqwert]

Plus, with the fact that the other starters are all doing very well, they will go deep into games, so the bullpen can be saved a bit for covering Contreras/Colon.

Although the other starters are doing well, none of them are going very deep into the games.

[NorthSideSox72]

Although the other starters are doing well, none of them are going very deep into the games.

Thus my use of tense - WILL. Its early in the season and it is cold, they aren't lengthening out quite yet.

 

[southsider2k5]

Thus my use of tense - WILL. Its early in the season and it is cold, they aren't lengthening out quite yet.

 

Which is why it is important to get starters their innings now. If you aren't stretching these guys out, you aren't going to be able to get long games out of them, and then you start to make Carrasco, Egbert, and Richard more important than you really want them to be.

[caulfield12]

You seem to think that teams all over baseball have 7 shut-down relievers in their bullpens. They do not. Our bullpen is among the best, in the back 4. And the other three - currently Carrasco, Richard and Egbert - are no worse than what most teams have. And they can all go 3 innings. Guys who can do that, and are shut-down at it, are incredibly rare, and usually get converted into starters or late inning guys anyway.

 

Plus, with the fact that the other starters are all doing very well, they will go deep into games, so the bullpen can be saved a bit for covering Contreras/Colon.

 

Contreras (and possibly Colon) will lengthen out with time. No need to panic just yet.

 

 

Nope, the Tigers are the only team in our division that can have a better bullpen than ours, if Zumaya comes back 100% (reports were that he hit 101 the this week in an appearance)...although KC doesn't have a bad pen either, with the obvious exception of Farnsworth.

 

The problem I have is with the many fans who expect Dotel or Thornton to come into games in the 5th and 6th innings when we are tied, up by one, down by one. It's easy to say that Ozzie left Contreras out there too long, but he trusts a rehabbing Contreras more than he does Egbert, Mac, Carrasco or Richard. Ozzie is nothing, if not loyal. Let's say Contreras didn't go out for the bottom of the fifth (even though his pitch count was low and he would have lost the opportunity to get the win)...and Carrasco, Egbert or Richard got shelled. Everyone would be jumping all over Guillen for pulling Jose too early and wearing out the bullpen presumptuously. Not to mention the fact that Ozzie confers with Cooper on those decisions...ultimately, Ozzie's choice, but it's not like he makes in complete isolation, either.

 

 

 

 

 

''I don't know yet,'' Guillen said when he was asked whether he would keep Contreras in the rotation after a 10-3 loss Tuesday to the Baltimore Orioles. ''You make a decision right now after a game like this, then you may make the wrong one. We're going to sit down and talk with Coop and Kenny to see what we can do, see what we figure out.''

 

Contreras is a delicate topic right now because he defied all odds in returning from a ruptured left Achilles tendon four months earlier than expected. While Contreras was slowed in spring training, Cooper had penciled in the start against the Orioles as the one in which there would be no restrictions on how many innings he threw.

 

Then again, because Contreras allowed six runs, seven hits and six walks in 5 1/3 innings, the Sox had no choice but to restrict him from going on.

 

When Guillen was asked if he knows what has been wrong with Contreras, he quickly responded: ''No, he's got to figure it out. It was a pretty bad game -- walking people, didn't get many lefties out. I mean, he walked the leadoff guy maybe three different innings. When you do all that against a good-hitting ballclub, you're not going to win many games. ... You have to make every pitch count. Otherwise, the results are going to be what they were tonight.''

 

Contreras, who is 0-3 with an 8.04 ERA, said he knew what happened, but the key is fixing it.

 

''I felt fine,'' he said through interpreter Omer Munoz. ''I started well, but the last two innings I left the ball up, and they took advantage. That's when the runs came.

 

''I was rushing. I was opening up, and that's when I was leaving the ball up.'' cowley/cst

Edited April 22, 2009 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

Which is why it is important to get starters their innings now. If you aren't stretching these guys out, you aren't going to be able to get long games out of them, and then you start to make Carrasco, Egbert, and Richard more important than you really want them to be.

They are arcing them in - that is my take, anyway. The long relivers will do a lot early, and late, in the season.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Hopefully an "arch" and not a "parabola."

[Jimbo's Drinker]

They will blame him "tipping his pitches" in true White Sox defense style.

 

He is not good anymore, and its a struggle to have to watch him pitch every 5th game.

[elrockinMT]

Might as well root for him to turn it around, because there's no way KW or Ozzie will pull him from the rotation unless he's injured.

 

 

I am rooting for him, but it seems he can make it to the 4th or 5th inning and then folds. If he is still regaining strength and form I don't think he should be allowed to go real long into the game especially when he satrts to show signs of tiring. It's along season. But, the middle relief seems inconsistent too.

[The Ginger Kid]

His next start is against Halladay. Ouch.

[Cubano]

LOL, "he needs to step up or else."

 

He's back from a long time off and is our 5th starter, give me a break. Last night he faced a lineup of almost entirely lefties. As all of us experts know, his out pitch to lefties is his forkball, which hasnt come around yet this season. He will come around and go on a hot streak, I have no doubt about it. The good signs are the life on his fastball and his early ability to at least control his 2-seamer to righties.

 

 

I saw a good cutter from him against lefties. He needs to use that more. His velocity was OK for his age. El Duque with not as good stuff as El Titan knew how to pitch. Maybe, Contreras needs to start brushing some lefties with some high gas. He won't do it. He has a good heart and would not try to come close of hurting anybody even though brushing somebody does not mean hitting a batter.

[Balta1701]

I saw a good cutter from him against lefties. He needs to use that more. His velocity was OK for his age. El Duque with not as good stuff as El Titan knew how to pitch. Maybe, Contreras needs to start brushing some lefties with some high gas. He won't do it. He has a good heart and would not try to come close of hurting anybody even though brushing somebody does not mean hitting a batter.

Jose throws a cutter?

[RockRaines]

Jose throws a cutter?

Yes, to both sides of the plate. He started working on it last season and was showcasing it in the start where he got hurt.

[Balta1701]

Yes, to both sides of the plate. He started working on it last season and was showcasing it in the start where he got hurt.

Did not know that. That's what happens when you listen to most of the games on internet radio.

[caulfield12]

Contreras was showing signs of being very effective with that cutter when he'd drop down to sidearm and throw it across the outside front corner of the plate against righties...virtually unhittable.

 

The problems are obvious. He has no control or feel for the forkball yet. He's essentially a one-pitch pitcher, the fastball, which is only at 89-93 MPH and nothing like how hard he was throwing in 05-06, which was 92-97 consistently.

 

If you get behind in the count with an "average" major league fastball and you leave it out over the plate, which he did consistently last night, you'll get killed. And he did, especially by Markakis, Huff and Scott. He also hung a couple of non-moving forkballs.

 

As Cubano mentioned, sometimes he's very tentative about pitching inside, almost like he's afraid to hit someone. The other problem is that he wasn't showing a variety of pitches from the "drop down" mode and he was throwing inside backing-up fastballs to RH batters that were getting walloped all over the park.

 

If he can throw the fastball, a cutter/fast slider and the forkball, he'll be fine. If not, he probably will end up in the bullpen with another 2-3 starts like the 3 he's had so far in 2009.

Edited April 22, 2009 by caulfield12

[RockRaines]

Contreras was showing signs of being very effective with that cutter when he'd drop down to sidearm and throw it across the outside front corner of the plate against righties...virtually unhittable.

Thats actually his 2-seamer. He has been throwing his cutter from the over the top slot mostly so far, its hard to notice since it cuts so late. Its still a work in progress.

 

And that 2-seamer that you mentioned was one of his most dominant pitches when he went on that roll in 06.

Edited April 22, 2009 by RockRaines

[caulfield12]

Well, whatever it is he's throwing, it acts more like a slider/cutter, because it breaks on a diagonal plane from 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock.

 

It doesn't have the action of a typical sinker or two-seamer, that's more downward. Sometimes it's very hard to tell though...if you watch Colon, he has so much natural movement on his fastball, you would swear he's throwing a screwball.

[WCSox]

guys seriously.

 

it's early.

 

he's coming back from a massive injury.

 

cool your jets.

 

+1

 

Dude tore his freaking Achilles just over 8 months ago. I'm surprised that he's physically able to go out there and pitch right now.

 

Give him another month to get back his leg strength and work on his command. He was actually pitching pretty well between the ASB and his injury last season.

 

[qwerty]

+1

 

Dude tore his freaking Achilles just over 8 months ago. I'm surprised that he's physically able to go out there and pitch right now.

 

Give him another month to get back his leg strength and work on his command. He was actually pitching pretty well between the ASB and his injury last season.

 

If contreras was not suitable to pitch (for however long it may be) and the sox organization knew as much, well, there is really no excuse. Someone tolerable should have been brought in while contreras was still regaining his ''strength'' and working on his command in the minors, the major leagues is not the place to get the kinks out, if he is indeed still feeling nagging injury, or simply has little feel mechanically.

 

Contreras made 0 starts between the all star break and his injury last season.

[GoodAsGould]

Its been hard to watch so far, but to be fair Baltimore has a pretty good offense and he was doing fairly well till blowing up at the end. Im willing to give the Count 3-4 more starts before i start jumping off the cliff.

[knightni]

Maybe Jose's hiding pain issues with his achilles and the Sox can DL him for observation.

[GreatScott82]

Its been hard to watch so far, but to be fair Baltimore has a pretty good offense and he was doing fairly well till blowing up at the end. Im willing to give the Count 3-4 more starts before i start jumping off the cliff.

I'd like to see Contreras get those starts down in triple-a. He obviously needs more time to work out his kinks....

 

I'd like to see one of these guys up here getting some MLB experience:

 

Charlotte (AAA)

John Van Benchoten (1-1, 2.65 ERA, 17 IP, 13 SO)

 

Wes Whisler (1-1, 2.20 ERA, 16.1 IP, 7 SO)

 

Birmingham (AA)

Kyle McCulloch (2-1, 2.37 ERA, 19 IP, 9 SO)

 

Aaron Poreda (0-2, 3.00 ERA, 9 IP, 6 SO)

 

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Its been hard to watch so far, but to be fair Baltimore has a pretty good offense and he was doing fairly well till blowing up at the end. Im willing to give the Count 3-4 more starts before i start jumping off the cliff.

 

 

He was facing a line-up without Jones and Mora, on the other hand. Still, they're a pretty strong left-hand dominated line-up, not a good match-up for Contreras.

[caulfield12]

I'd like to see Contreras get those starts down in triple-a. He obviously needs more time to work out his kinks....

 

I'd like to see one of these guys up here getting some MLB experience:

 

Charlotte (AAA)

John Van Benchoten (1-1, 2.65 ERA, 17 IP, 13 SO)

 

Wes Whisler (1-1, 2.20 ERA, 16.1 IP, 7 SO)

 

Birmingham (AA)

Kyle McCulloch (2-1, 2.37 ERA, 19 IP, 9 SO)

 

Aaron Poreda (0-2, 3.00 ERA, 9 IP, 6 SO)

 

 

It took a long time for them to give Egbert a shot in the bullpen...Whisler, you'll see the same thing.

 

Van Benschoten and Poreda would be more likely to get a spot start than the other 2. Most see Whisler as "organizational filler" or merely a AAAA pitcher. A lot depends on Cooper's perceptions of JVB and Poreda.

 

Poreda seems like he has another half year (at least) to go before they throw him out there for a start.