The Nolan Ryan Debate Thread

[MHizzle85]

I caught some of BBTN.

 

Coco Crisp says Grienke is the best pitcher he's ever played behind.

 

Others say he's a good as a young Nolan Ryan. Can we make it to June before we start throwing these type of quotes around?

[StrangeSox]

I caught some of BBTN.

 

Coco Crisp says Grienke is the best pitcher he's ever played behind.

 

Others say he's a good as a young Nolan Ryan. Can we make it to June before we start throwing these type of quotes around?

 

Baseball Tonight was pretty heavy on the Ryan/ Clemens comparisons. I had to shut it off.

[Harry Chappas]

Baseball Tonight was pretty heavy on the Ryan/ Clemens comparisons. I had to shut it off.

 

Those dopes over blow everything to epic proportions. I thought Grieneke was more of a finese pitcher, more like a Mike Mussina....oh wait the comparison needs to be more dramatic.

 

The MLB Network is great. The cub fan from Comcast whose name is escaping me, Sean Casey, Barry Larkin and Al Leiter are really good. I'd like to see kruk go over there.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Jenks Heat

[SoxFan562004]

Baseball Tonight was pretty heavy on the Ryan/ Clemens comparisons. I had to shut it off.

Yes, I accidently switched it on for about 30 seconds and Steve Phillips copared Joba to a prime Clemens during last nights start... yes, a prime Clemens often went 5 and a 3rd inning with 2.438 WHIP. The MLB Network has made it so much fun to be a baseball fan where we have an alternative to BBTN. Does Skynet knob Man U this much in Europe?

 

FWIW coming into this year I would say the best pitchers in the game are Johan and Doc.

Edited April 30, 2009 by SoxFan562004

[scenario]

A young Nolan Ryan?

 

Where does THAT come from?

 

Greinke has pinpoint control and can throw the ball anywhere he wants in the strike zone. That's why he's successful.

 

Nolan Ryan averaged... for his career... walking 4.7 per 9 innings. He had a couple of seasons where he averaged 6BB's per 9. Ryan's claim to fame was that he could throw it by anybody... when he got it over the plate.

 

Two completely opposite styles IMO.

 

Edited April 30, 2009 by scenario

[witesoxfan]

A young Nolan Ryan?

 

Where does THAT come from?

 

Greinke has pinpoint control and can throw the ball anywhere he wants in the strike zone. That's why he's successful.

 

Nolan Ryan averaged... for his career... walking 4.7 per 9 innings. He had a couple of seasons where he averaged 6BB's per 9. Ryan's claim to fame was that he could throw it by anybody... when he got it over the plate.

 

Two completely opposite styles IMO.

 

I actually don't think Nolan Ryan was that good of a pitcher. He was a freak of nature, he was intimidating as s***, and he has several great stories to his credit, but to me, he looks more like Jack Morris than an all time great pitcher; it's just that Ryan pitched 9 more seasons than Morris.

[ThunderBolt]

I actually don't think Nolan Ryan was that good of a pitcher.

Wow. Are you... Seriously?

[Jordan4life_2007]

I caught some of BBTN.

 

Coco Crisp says Grienke is the best pitcher he's ever played behind.

 

Others say he's a good as a young Nolan Ryan. Can we make it to June before we start throwing these type of quotes around?

 

Just stay away from all things ESPN when it comes to baseball. MLB Network is your friend.

[witesoxfan]

Wow. Are you... Seriously?

 

Yes. He had 8 years where his ERA was below the league average (ERA+ of less than 100) and only 7 where he was a very good starting pitcher (ERA+ of 120+). He was a very good starting pitcher that pitched forever, but that doesn't mean he was an absolute stud. I'd also say that Bert Blyleven was a superior pitcher to Ryan.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Yes. He had 8 years where his ERA was below the league average (ERA+ of less than 100) and only 7 where he was a very good starting pitcher (ERA+ of 120+). He was a very good starting pitcher that pitched forever, but that doesn't mean he was an absolute stud. I'd also say that Bert Blyleven was a superior pitcher to Ryan.

 

series?

[RockRaines]

Wow. Are you... Seriously?

I agree with him. He wasnt that good of a pitcher. Good thrower, yes, not a great pitcher.

[caulfield12]

Ryan the "legend" that noogied Robin Ventura like a loose calf on his ranch is greater than his reality as a pitcher.

 

He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, even though I pretty much hate the guy.

 

As far as Greinke goes, and I've seen him (KC resident) since he came up, he's nothing like Ryan. Ryan was much more of a fearsome, intimidating presence on the mound. Zach's not that big, and he's not known for being a headhunter. Nolan Ryan was mean/ornery, he wasn't afraid to knock down anyone, especially if that player had homered off of him.

 

As for Greinke, he normally throws 92-95, but he can really throw it 95-97 when he really needs it or wants to (like Colon in his prime).

 

He also has a much better repertoire of pitches (think Vazquez) and isn't particularly known for just one, in Ryan's case, the fastball.

 

I guess I am getting old. When I saw the line about Johan and Doc, the first name that came to my mind was Doc Gooden, not Halladay.

 

As far as Ryan being a thrower, I think he really became a much better pitcher the last 5-7 years of his career, when he lost his knockout fastball (a bit). He learned you didn't have to strikeout every single batter, he learned to mix in his offspeed stuff effectively, he wasn't a Greg Maddux or Pedro Martinez, but he wasn't just a thrower exclusively.

Edited April 30, 2009 by caulfield12

[The Ginger Kid]

I agree with him. He wasnt that good of a pitcher. Good thrower, yes, not a great pitcher.

you're suggesting that pitching is one thing, when it's more than one thing. for some it's power (Ryan), for others, it's finesse (Maddox). Some great ones combine both (Pedro). But to me, it's all pitching. Ryan threw a pretty devastating curve, by the way. If all he ever had was a fastball he never would've gotten out of the minors.

[witesoxfan]

you're suggesting that pitching is one thing, when it's more than one thing. for some it's power (Ryan), for others, it's finesse (Maddox). Some great ones combine both (Pedro). But to me, it's all pitching. Ryan threw a pretty devastating curve, by the way. If all he ever had was a fastball he never would've gotten out of the minors.

 

and regardless, I still don't think he was that good. He was an above average pitcher for 27 years.

[ThunderBolt]

and regardless, I still don't think he was that good. He was an above average pitcher for 27 years.

You're getting on a guy for pitching great for 27 years? Yes, there is a distinction between a pitcher and a thrower, but Ryan was both. Did you see his stuff?

[witesoxfan]

You're getting on a guy for pitching great for 27 years? Yes, there is a distinction between a pitcher and a thrower, but Ryan was both. Did you see his stuff?

 

Yes, I've seen footage of Nolan Ryan. And I have never said he pitched great for 27 years, you said that. I said he was an above average pitcher for 27 years. And besides that, I'm not getting on him about being an above average pitcher for 27 years. Nolan Ryan has been idolized as a Greek god of throwing a ball, when there are almost countless others I would have rather had than Ryan. The fact of the matter is that there is a lore about Nolan Ryan because he could throw a baseball 120 MPH, his arm stayed attached, and it did so for 27 years. He was a damn fine pitcher, but I will never call him great.

 

What's most incredible about Nolan Ryan is that he holds five damn near unbreakable records (WP, H/9, BB, K, and no-hitters), 3 of which are far and away winners - BB, K, and the no-nos. He was dominant when he was on, but I would honestly say that, if I could combine pitchers from past and present, that he is some crazy hybrid of Jack Morris and Kerry Wood, though he had the longevity of a Greg Maddux or Cy Young or whoever pitched a s***load of seasons.

[Harry Chappas]

Nolan Ryan was great on certain days obviously but he could not carry a team. Longevity is what made him what he is not necessarily the results.

[knightni]

Nolan Ryan got it figured out after about 5 years in the league.

 

He was an powerful thrower, but he pitched on a lot of mediocre teams which kept his win totals down.

 

He was not the dominating #1 SP that Carlton, Seaver or Maddux was.

 

He was a strikeout artist who had longevity.

 

 

 

 

[Texsox]

It seems as long as we are debating where Ryan fits among the truly outstanding pitchers of all time. I'll accept that.

[Texsox]

One thought I just had, it seems we call every guy without a top fastball a pitcher and every guy with a 96+ fast ball a thrower. Seems too easy and over simplified.

[Kalapse]

One thought I just had, it seems we call every guy without a top fastball a pitcher and every guy with a 96+ fast ball a thrower. Seems too easy and over simplified.

Just thinking in terms of current players: I think Josh Johnson has become a hell of a pitcher same goes for Josh Beckett when he has his good command, Felix Hernandez is one of the best in baseball and Edinson Volquez should get there soon. That's just young pitchers off the top of my head all with mid to high 90's heat. Zack Greinke is the definition of a "pitcher" and he can run it up there. Roy Oswalt (he doesn't really work in the 96+ MPH range anymore) and CC Sabathia are a couple more examples. It seems like these days you either become a pitcher or you'll find yourself in the bullpen. You can't just run it up there against big league hitters, they'll destroy you, you have to be able to locate and change speeds.

[witesoxfan]

Nolan Ryan got it figured out after about 5 years in the league.

 

He was an powerful thrower, but he pitched on a lot of mediocre teams which kept his win totals down.

 

He was not the dominating #1 SP that Carlton, Seaver or Maddux was.

 

He was a strikeout artist who had longevity.

 

I wouldn't say that. In the years where his win totals were down, he was either a below average pitcher, he was injured in some fashion, or his innings were down for some other reason other than a couple later in his career. If you look at his statistics, in every year he did not win 15 games, he either had an ERA+ below 100 or threw fewer than 200 innings (whether with injury or demotions). You could make arguments that he should have won more games in '83 and '84, but the main year I look at is his '87 season where he led the league in ERA and only won 8 games. He got screwed there, but there aren't many other seasons where he did. '90 kind of sucked too, but he still won 13 games which isn't terrible, and the Rangers that year were an above .500 team.

[southsider2k5]

I think Nolan Ryan is a great example of why you just can't use numbers to evaluate a player. Sometimes the eye test really does matter.

[knightni]

I wouldn't say that. In the years where his win totals were down, he was either a below average pitcher, he was injured in some fashion, or his innings were down for some other reason other than a couple later in his career. If you look at his statistics, in every year he did not win 15 games, he either had an ERA+ below 100 or threw fewer than 200 innings (whether with injury or demotions). You could make arguments that he should have won more games in '83 and '84, but the main year I look at is his '87 season where he led the league in ERA and only won 8 games. He got screwed there, but there aren't many other seasons where he did. '90 kind of sucked too, but he still won 13 games which isn't terrible, and the Rangers that year were an above .500 team.

 

The 70s Angels were average, the late 70s-early-mid 80s Astros were not that good (sans '86) and the late 80s-early 90s Rangers were also not that good. Also, The Big A, The Astrodome, and Arlington Stadium, weren't exactly great places to pitch.

 

I never said that his no-hitters and K marks weren't great; I just said that he wasn't a great "pitcher." He was a dominating thrower who was wild enough to scare people into respecting him on the mound.

 

He stayed in the game long enough to get 300 wins and be a "lock" for the Hall.

 

[scenario]

I never said that his no-hitters and K marks weren't great; I just said that he wasn't a great "pitcher." He was a dominating thrower who was wild enough to scare people into respecting him on the mound.

 

He stayed in the game long enough to get 300 wins and be a "lock" for the Hall.

 

 

I've always thought Nolan Ryan was to pitching what Clint Eastwood is to acting.

 

Seemed to get better and taken more seriously as he got older.

 

 

(That's not a knock on Clint. I love his movies... particularly the more recent ones. Unforgiven? Hall of Fame stuff.)