The Nolan Ryan Debate Thread

[knightni]

Nolan Ryan is about a half step above Randy Johnson.

[SoxFan562004]

Yes. He had 8 years where his ERA was below the league average (ERA+ of less than 100) and only 7 where he was a very good starting pitcher (ERA+ of 120+). He was a very good starting pitcher that pitched forever, but that doesn't mean he was an absolute stud. I'd also say that Bert Blyleven was a superior pitcher to Ryan.

Blyleven led the league in:

GS=1 CG=1 Shutouts=3 IP=2 Strikeouts=1 ERA+=1 CERA=1 OAV=0 WS=1

 

Nolan Ryan led the league in:

GS=0 CG=1 Shutouts=3 IP=1 Strikeouts=11 ERA+=2 CERA=4 OAV=12 WS=0

 

The one area Blyleven dominates in is walks allowed. So they are a little more even than I thought they would be.

 

 

 

 

[SoxFan562004]

Nolan Ryan is about a half step above Randy Johnson.

Both excellent pitchers, but I respectively disagree and would take Randy

 

Nolan Ryan led the league in:

GS=0 CG=1 Shutouts=3 IP=1 Strikeouts=11 ERA+=2 CERA=4 OAV=12 WS=0

 

Randy Johnson:

GS=3 CG=4 Shutouts=2 IP=2 Strikeouts=9 ERA+=6 CERA=2 OAV=5 WS=4

 

 

CERA=Component ERA

[knightni]

Both excellent pitchers, but I respectively disagree and would take Randy

 

Nolan Ryan led the league in:

GS=0 CG=1 Shutouts=3 IP=1 Strikeouts=11 ERA+=2 CERA=4 OAV=12 WS=0

 

Randy Johnson:

GS=3 CG=4 Shutouts=2 IP=2 Strikeouts=9 ERA+=6 CERA=2 OAV=5 WS=4

 

 

CERA=Component ERA

 

 

But...but... SEVEN No-hitters!!!!!11!!!!

[danman31]

One thought I just had, it seems we call every guy without a top fastball a pitcher and every guy with a 96+ fast ball a thrower. Seems too easy and over simplified.

He walked a lot of guys, that's really the difference to me.

[santo=dorf]

I think Nolan Ryan is a great example of why you just can't use numbers to evaluate a player. Sometimes the eye test really does matter.

You mean numbers like 96 MPH heat,7 no-hitters, and 5412 K's? That's all I ever recall people saying about Ryan when his career was winding down.

 

Nolan was great. definately a HOF, but he was not better than Pedro, Maddux, or Randy Johnson.

[southsider2k5]

You mean numbers like 96 MPH heat,7 no-hitters, and 5412 K's? That's all I ever recall people saying about Ryan when his career was winding down.

 

Nolan was great. definately a HOF, but he was not better than Pedro, Maddux, or Randy Johnson.

 

The dominance that Nolan had on the game for a significant period of time is lost in all of the walk/strike out/IP/hits arguments. Watching the guy pitch, and the task that a hitter had trying to get to the guy, is what I look at. I'd put the guy above Pedro and Johnson, but below Maddux personally. Pedro could rate higher, but his durability sets him back from the other three.

[witesoxfan]

all you have to do to see how dominant Ryan was is to look at his H/9. 6.5 hits per 9 over his entire career, which is friggin phenomenal. He actually had two seasons where he allowed more walks than hits. That's pretty crazy in its own right.

[BlackBetsy]

The dominance that Nolan had on the game for a significant period of time is lost in all of the walk/strike out/IP/hits arguments. Watching the guy pitch, and the task that a hitter had trying to get to the guy, is what I look at. I'd put the guy above Pedro and Johnson, but below Maddux personally. Pedro could rate higher, but his durability sets him back from the other three.

Pedro and Koufax have had the best peaks of any pitchers, period. Pedro with Ryan's durability would easily be the greatest pitcher of all time by a mile and a half.

 

At the end of the day, the walks really killed Ryan. His career ERA+ was only 111. Mark Buehrle's career ERA+ so far is 122. In terms of run prevention, Mark Buehrle's had a better career.

 

While Ryan was racking up those K numbers, he was doing so at the expense of control and putting baserunners on base. That's why (along with being on some mediocre teams) he finished up with 324 wins and 292 losses.

 

Think of it this way - if there was some guy who traded strikeout totals for low walk totals and had 3.9 ERA's for his career but had a ridiculous 0.8 BB / 9 IP career walk rate, would you think he is automatically Hall worthy? Probably not...But since we highly value pitcher strikeouts (as we should), Ryan's career is outsized compared to his performance. The 7 no hitters obviously add to his luster...without them he's a high strikeout 300 game winner w/ no CY Youngs.

 

Side note: I was at Comiskey Park when Ozzie Guillen hit a home run off of Nolan Ryan. Surprised it was 1990. Ozzie talked some smack to Craig Grebeck when he went back on the field for defense (Grebeck also homered). I was sitting in the LF seats, first row IIRC.

[Nokona]

Does Skynet knob Man U this much in Europe?

 

Not in the least. Liverpool supporters often make up the "panel" discussions during match days. Things work a bit differently over there.

[lostfan]

I'm taking Wite's side here - it's not that he's saying Nolan Ryan doesn't deserve to be in the conversation of all-time greats, and he certainly deserves to be in the Hall, but he isn't as good as his legacy makes him.

[OilCan]

I was about to jump on those Ryan bashers until I compared the stats to Ryan against Pedro, Koufax, et al...

 

And then I stopped thinking about it because average-wise, Ryan per 9 innings numbers are lower than Pedro, RJ and Koufax.

 

Look, Ryan is a Fireballer, pure and simple. Pedro can throw fireballs with command. Koufax did it with style. Big Unit just intimidates and dominates. Each pitcher had their own unique style to it.

 

Ryan did it with over 5K Ks over two and a half decades, which will never happen again. That's why he gets my vote as one of the top 10 pitchers who ever threw from the rubber.

 

But those $@%^#$^#$%^# at BSPN who compares Grienke to a young Ryan are smoking on the Hype peote again.

[southsider2k5]

I'm taking Wite's side here - it's not that he's saying Nolan Ryan doesn't deserve to be in the conversation of all-time greats, and he certainly deserves to be in the Hall, but he isn't as good as his legacy makes him.

 

So to you and everyone else, where exactly does Ryan rank in the all-time greats? I don't think anyone has said he is THE best of all-time, but one of the best.

[knightni]

He's top 60 guy who went into the top 40 when he won 300 games.

[lostfan]

So to you and everyone else, where exactly does Ryan rank in the all-time greats? I don't think anyone has said he is THE best of all-time, but one of the best.

When we had the argument over whether Curt Schilling was a HoFer, I would put Ryan on about a level with him (note: I was a strong pro-Schilling supporter in that thread). Ryan had a s***-ton of strikeouts and his longevity is incomparable, and of course he has the 7 no-nos, but he wasn't always that good or dominant. But he doesn't compare to somebody like Maddux, or a healthy Pedro Martinez, hell if we assume Johan Santana keeps up his pace, I'd say he was better too.

Edited May 3, 2009 by lostfan

[knightni]

How many years did Ryan pitch in a 4 man rotation, I wonder?

[qwerty]

How many years did Ryan pitch in a 4 man rotation, I wonder?

 

Six.

[knightni]

Six.

Of course, his first two years in the majors he was a long reliever and sucked the next 2 or 3.

 

He maybe got an extra 10 wins out of being in a four man rotation then.

[hogan873]

I think it's always good to have a healthy Nolan Ryan debate every once in while. I know this thread started at a comparison of Grienke to Ryan, and I have agree that they are really nothing alike. Nolan Ryan was pretty much a fastball guy who could blow batters away. Grienke's pitches are more fine tuned and pin point accuracy. Although I don't think you can compare Ryan and Buehrle, I would say that Buehrle pitches with more style (he has to, really, considering his pitch speed). Anyway, Nolan Ryan, whether a "pitcher" or a "thrower" is a HOFer. Seven no hitters...5000+ Ks...and a long career. If he was all intimidation and speed, he was extrermely successful at that.

[NorthSideSox72]

Part of the picture of who goes into the HOF is their total effect on the game - going beyond stats, and beyond their results. Personality, and how they may have changed the game, are also factored in. Nolan Ryan was a huge presence during his career.

 

[lostfan]

Part of the picture of who goes into the HOF is their total effect on the game - going beyond stats, and beyond their results. Personality, and how they may have changed the game, are also factored in. Nolan Ryan was a huge presence during his career.

He was my favorite pitcher growing up (I'm 27).

[earthshiner]

A few a years ago at soxfest I was able to ask Chet Lemon and Jorge Orta who the toughest pitcher was they faced. They both said Ryan. Even after Lemon signed my ball he was still chating up Ryan. He said you could know exactly what he was going to throw and still not be able to hit it.

[Steve9347]

After watching an hour long special on Nolan Ryan on MLB Network, I'd take him over most. The dude was just ridiculous... there were factors to his game that went above the final numbers.

 

Seven f***ing no-hitters are you kidding me?

 

PS, the MLB Network has some freaking awesome footage. They are running that station properly.

[Chisoxfn]

The dominance that Nolan had on the game for a significant period of time is lost in all of the walk/strike out/IP/hits arguments. Watching the guy pitch, and the task that a hitter had trying to get to the guy, is what I look at. I'd put the guy above Pedro and Johnson, but below Maddux personally. Pedro could rate higher, but his durability sets him back from the other three.

Pedro is the greatest pitcher of the past twenty years and he did most of his best work on some horrible teams. Maddux is second. If Ryan had the command of either of them, he hands down would have been the greatest to every pitch the game and he had some of the best pure stuff and obviously one of the rubberest arms ever.

[kapkomet]

Pedro is the greatest pitcher of the past twenty years and he did most of his best work on some horrible teams. Maddux is second. If Ryan had the command of either of them, he hands down would have been the greatest to every pitch the game and he had some of the best pure stuff and obviously one of the rubberest arms ever.

The game's different. Ryan didn't HAVE to have pinpoint control because he could throw whatever he wanted to get an out. Ryan threw a lot of crap that people swung at and missed. The scouting was different. You didn't have 85 videographers taking every possible arm angle and analysing it for tipping pitches. You get the idea.