The Nolan Ryan Debate Thread

[santo=dorf]

Yet he only led the league in ERA twice, placed 3rd, 4th and 5th once each time. That's over 25+ full seasons.

[Rowand44]

Pedro is the greatest pitcher of the past twenty years

^^^ By far the best pitcher I've ever seen pitch.

[knightni]

Greg Maddux was better than Pedro in the early-mid 90s

[Rooftop Shots]

Not sure about the facts, but I once heard that Ryan's average pitch count per game was 150 plus. Don't know if it is just here-say or if there is any truth to it. The only thing that I found was a quote that said, if they took Ryan out of the game with today's standardizing of pitch counts, that he would be out by the 3rd or 4th inning.

[witesoxfan]

Greg Maddux was better than Pedro in the early-mid 90s

 

I don't think so. Pedro Martinez had a 7 year span from 1997 to 2003 where his average season was 16-5 record, 2.20 ERA, 201 IP, 251 K, 45 BB, and 144 H. That's good for a 0.94 WHIP, 11.3 K/9, 2 BB/9, 5.6 K/BB, 6.4 H/9, and, the most telling statistic of all, a 213 ERA+...over 7 years. Greg Maddux had an ERA+ of 200 twice, and both were very good - probably the 2nd and 3rd best seasons of all time, behind Pedro's 2000 - but Pedro did that over 7 years. And he was out for half of 2001.

 

And, though I find it generally meaningless, it's still fun to look at...his W-L over that time was 118-36 and his winning percentage was .766. That's ridiculous to even think about.

[qwerty]

Not sure about the facts, but I once heard that Ryan's average pitch count per game was 150 plus. Don't know if it is just here-say or if there is any truth to it. The only thing that I found was a quote that said, if they took Ryan out of the game with today's standardizing of pitch counts, that he would be out by the 3rd or 4th inning.

 

Not even close.

 

Though on june 14th 1974 it's estimated that he 259 pitches in 13 innings against the red sox. He walked 10 and struck out 19 while facing 58 batters in total. The more conservative estimate is 232 pitches. Luis tiant went 14.1 inning while facing 56 batters. He ended up losing.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CA...197406140.shtml

 

Random notes:

 

Tim Wakefield once threw 158 pitches in a game...while setting and currently holding the record most strikes without recording a strikeout...103.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CH...199606100.shtml

 

================================================================================

 

Schilling once threw 114 pitches in this game, and 94 went for strikes. Those 94 strikes are the most ''ever'' throw with a pitch count of less than 120. He gave up 14 hits, 9 runs, 8 of which were earned.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CO...200209200.shtml

[chw42]

Yes. He had 8 years where his ERA was below the league average (ERA+ of less than 100) and only 7 where he was a very good starting pitcher (ERA+ of 120+). He was a very good starting pitcher that pitched forever, but that doesn't mean he was an absolute stud. I'd also say that Bert Blyleven was a superior pitcher to Ryan.

 

I agree with this. Nolan Ryan's just that guy who was really good but didn't go away when he should have.

[Gregory Pratt]

I don't think so. Pedro Martinez had a 7 year span from 1997 to 2003 where his average season was 16-5 record, 2.20 ERA, 201 IP, 251 K, 45 BB, and 144 H. That's good for a 0.94 WHIP, 11.3 K/9, 2 BB/9, 5.6 K/BB, 6.4 H/9, and, the most telling statistic of all, a 213 ERA+...over 7 years. Greg Maddux had an ERA+ of 200 twice, and both were very good - probably the 2nd and 3rd best seasons of all time, behind Pedro's 2000 - but Pedro did that over 7 years. And he was out for half of 2001.

 

And, though I find it generally meaningless, it's still fun to look at...his W-L over that time was 118-36 and his winning percentage was .766. That's ridiculous to even think about.

 

I struggle with this question because I love them both. The raw totals and the ERA+ adjustments favor Pedro. But Pedro put up gaudier number in far fewer innings than Maddux did. I think it's obvious to anyone looking at the numbers that Maddux had a better career than Martinez, but who was the better per-game-peak pitcher? The only years when Maddux pitched a "low-200s" total of innings were the years when he had better ERA totals than Martinez. He was always finishing his games and never got hurt. Martinez only pitched over 215 innings twice. Maddux did it 14 times, not counting playoffs! Besides that, his peak is almost as good as Martinez' except for the strikeouts. Let's put it this way: if Pedro Martinez had pitched 100 CGs over the course of his career he would have died. He was a guy who needed to pitch around 100 pitches and get out before he tired out.