We are literally the worst team ever.

[Balta1701]

We're a slumping team (both sides of the game) in a crappy division. Yes, giving up is the most logical solution.

And we're also banged up, and not because our guys are old (except for Thome's injury), but instead because of some freak things happening like a run of HBP's.

 

White flag time.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

Yeah, it just killed this team in 2007 and the subsequent 2008 season. This should be the last year on the Sox for anyone associated with 2005 besides for Buehrle and Konerko (due to contract). Dye and Jenks don't look like they'll fit in for 2009 (10 million plus would be too much for either). KW's moves last offseason sure made it seem like he was focused on the 2010-2011-2012 Sox season instead of the 2009, so he should stick to the plan if things don't pan out the first 4 months.

 

BTW, according to Baseball America, Birmingham is the 2nd most exciting minor league team in the country this year. Just an interesting tidbit I heard yesterday.

 

Wouldn't mind getting rid of AJ either.

[Dick Allen]

I just don't get why so many people are acting surprised about this team right now. We all know this team will NOT compete this year and really this season is for us to see what the kids can do. If we wanted to win then Kenny would of pulled some triggers on some deals this offseason and Ozzie wouldn't be so damn inconsistent with his lineup selection.

 

Did anyone catch the Ozzie interview yesterday with John Miller during the game. The hilarious piece of that whole interview was when John mentioned to Ozzie that this team just relies on the long ball. Ozzie's response was we have more speed this year..Are you kidding me..yes more speed, but Ozzie one small problem...What good is it when they can't get on base!

I agree. 1.5 games out with only 138 left to play. Its time to pull the plug and think about 2010.

[BearSox]

Yeah, it just killed this team in 2007 and the subsequent 2008 season. This should be the last year on the Sox for anyone associated with 2005 besides for Buehrle and Konerko (due to contract). Dye and Jenks don't look like they'll fit in for 2009 (10 million plus would be too much for either). KW's moves last offseason sure made it seem like he was focused on the 2010-2011-2012 Sox season instead of the 2009, so he should stick to the plan if things don't pan out the first 4 months.

 

BTW, according to Baseball America, Birmingham is the 2nd most exciting minor league team in the country this year. Just an interesting tidbit I heard yesterday.

I think we'll see one of Dye or Thome back next year. I'm all for the youth movement, but we still need to put a competitive team out there and I'm not very fond of a lineup that consists of basically Q and PK in the middle of the lineup. Dye will be expensive, and it probably wouldn't make a ton of sense to restructure his contract and keep him for another 2 seasons. I guess if we let Dye go and bring back Thome on a cheap one year deal, that'd be the cheapest option. But I don't think it would be the best option from a baseball standpoint.

 

As for Jenks, I'm all for trading him, and I'd prefer to do it sooner than later. Come June and July, if we are around 3rd place and aren't looking like serious contenders, I'd be all for trading him. Mainly because I think we can get the most value from him at the deadline when a team that is in contention needs a bullpen arm badly (kind of like the Mets last year). I like Jenks, but he's just gonna cost too much and there's some serious health concerns, IMO. I'm not expecting a Ugerith Urbina package for him, but I think we could get a pretty nice package for Jenks.

[klaus kinski]

 

Is this considered loading up the ball?

 

[Cali]

It's weird, I'm a fan of either option.

 

Either the Sox stay competitive in a weak division, or they don't and we start getting rid of Dye/Konerko/Thome and we start seeing Brandon Allen, and Beckham in every day roles...

 

I don't know about trading Jenks though. mostly because he's still young, and I don't know who could take over for him right away. I don't trust Thornton in the 9th day in and day out... I would only trade Bobby is the package to get him was AMAZING. With a mix of Top Prospects and Young ML roster guys playing now...

[Greg Hibbard]

I agree. 1.5 games out with only 138 left to play. Its time to pull the plug and think about 2010.

 

No, it's time we were realistic about what this team is capable of.

 

I suppose if you feel division titles are some sort of accomplishment, then this season probably has some meaning for you. As all the rosters currently stand, any team making out of the Central probably gets utterly smoked in the postseason. I don't see the point of division titles, personally, but whatever floats your boat.

[Dick Allen]

No, it's time we were realistic about what this team is capable of.

 

I suppose if you feel division titles are some sort of accomplishment, then this season probably has some meaning for you. As all the rosters currently stand, any team making out of the Central probably gets utterly smoked in the postseason. I don't see the point of division titles, personally, but whatever floats your boat.

Maybe I just remember the 1987 Minnesota Twins and the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals. I will never get sick of the White Sox making the postseason where anything can happen. Who knows, if Quentin doesn't get hurt and the White Sox are able to align their rotation correctly in the playoffs, what happens last season. You don't have to lead everyday like the 2005 White Sox. If the ball doesn't go through Graffinino's legs in 2005 and El Duque is left off the playoff roster like KW wanted and most of Soxtalk wanted as well, the White Sox probably don't make it out of the first round then. Anything can happen, any team can get hot. I don't think this team is good enough to win, but if they get there its not like the NBA where only a couple teams have a realistic shot. Look at how many wildcard teams have won it all. If the WS title is the only thing that floats your boat, 1 in 92 years must make you very ornery. I know a quick exit sucks, but at least you have a shot. There is nothing to indicate the White Sox are on the verge of a long run of winning WS. There is a lot of luck involved.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Melissa1334]

Maybe I just remember the 1987 Minnesota Twins and the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals. I will never get sick of the White Sox making the postseason where anything can happen. Who knows, if Quentin doesn't get hurt and the White Sox are able to align their rotation correctly in the playoffs, what happens last season. You don't have to lead everyday like the 2005 White Sox. If the ball doesn't go through Graffinino's legs in 2005 and El Duque is left off the playoff roster like KW wanted and most of Soxtalk wanted as well, the White Sox probably don't make it out of the first round then. Anything can happen, any team can get hot. I don't think this team is good enough to win, but if they get there its not like the NBA where only a couple teams have a realistic shot. Look at how many wildcard teams have won it all.

great post.

[Greg Hibbard]

Maybe I just remember the 1987 Minnesota Twins and the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals. I will never get sick of the White Sox making the postseason where anything can happen. Who knows, if Quentin doesn't get hurt and the White Sox are able to align their rotation correctly in the playoffs, what happens last season. You don't have to lead everyday like the 2005 White Sox. If the ball doesn't go through Graffinino's legs in 2005 and El Duque is left off the playoff roster like KW wanted and most of Soxtalk wanted as well, the White Sox probably don't make it out of the first round then. Anything can happen, any team can get hot. I don't think this team is good enough to win, but if they get there its not like the NBA where only a couple teams have a realistic shot. Look at how many wildcard teams have won it all. If the WS title is the only thing that floats your boat, 1 in 92 years must make you very ornery. I know a quick exit sucks, but at least you have a shot. There is nothing to indicate the White Sox are on the verge of a long run of winning WS. There is a lot of luck involved.

 

The 1987 Minnesota Twins and 2006 St. Louis Cardinals are two examples out of the last 30 or so years of seemingly bad teams getting in that won it all, and probably the ONLY two teams among many.

 

You asked "how many WC have won the world series?" How does this apply? The WC team could have the second best record in the league. The worst division winner cannot - and that's the scenario we are looking at here. Can you please tell me how the wild card will be coming out of the central this season?

 

How about this instead - since 1995, how many times has the worst division winner in either respective league won the world series? How many times has a team that has won less than 90 games won the world series? I'll bet it's less than 10%. You're saying that banking on that 5-10% or so statistical historical chance we would have to win the World Series is a mindset we should have year after year after year....are you serious? I'd ask you if you treat similar statistical chances in the same way?

 

Just so I have this straight- in this same paragraph you assume that if we lose game 3 of the first round of the 2005 divisional playoffs while up 2-0, we probably don't win the series whatsoever. That is what you're saying, right? probably. Is this like saying if we win the division with 83 wins this season, we probably win the world series?

Edited May 4, 2009 by Greg Hibbard

[Kyyle23]

The 1987 Minnesota Twins and 2006 St. Louis Cardinals are two examples out of the last 30 or so years of seemingly bad teams getting in that won it all, and probably the ONLY two teams among many.

 

You asked "how many WC have won the world series?" How does this apply? The WC team could have the second best record in the league. The worst division winner cannot - and that's the scenario we are looking at here. Can you please tell me how the wild card will be coming out of the central this season?

 

How about this instead - since 1995, how many times has the worst division winner in either respective league won the world series? How many times has a team that has won less than 90 games won the world series? I'll bet it's less than 10%. You're saying that banking on that 5-10% or so statistical historical chance we would have to win the World Series is a mindset we should have year after year after year....are you serious? I'd ask you if you treat similar statistical chances in the same way?

 

Just so I have this straight- in this same paragraph you assume that if we lose game 3 of the first round of the 2005 divisional playoffs while up 2-0, we probably don't win the series whatsoever. That is what you're saying, right? probably. Is this like saying if we win the division with 83 wins this season, we probably win the world series?

 

 

you dont believe the Sox have a shot. We all get that, as you have been repeating it for the past 2 seasons(maybe more).

 

How about I dont tell you that you have to believe in this team, and you dont tell me that I shouldnt believe in this team, we can agree to disagree and move on.

[caulfield12]

Maybe I just remember the 1987 Minnesota Twins and the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals. I will never get sick of the White Sox making the postseason where anything can happen. Who knows, if Quentin doesn't get hurt and the White Sox are able to align their rotation correctly in the playoffs, what happens last season. You don't have to lead everyday like the 2005 White Sox. If the ball doesn't go through Graffinino's legs in 2005 and El Duque is left off the playoff roster like KW wanted and most of Soxtalk wanted as well, the White Sox probably don't make it out of the first round then. Anything can happen, any team can get hot. I don't think this team is good enough to win, but if they get there its not like the NBA where only a couple teams have a realistic shot. Look at how many wildcard teams have won it all. If the WS title is the only thing that floats your boat, 1 in 92 years must make you very ornery. I know a quick exit sucks, but at least you have a shot. There is nothing to indicate the White Sox are on the verge of a long run of winning WS. There is a lot of luck involved.

 

 

Yes, true.

 

But, if you remember, those Twins teams only won the World Series because of that tremendous home field advantage. Everything really has to fall your way. Yes, the White Sox had all the breaks go their way in 2005, but, then again, having someone like Albert Pujols (no, Carlos Quentin isn't close to him in terms of overall hitting ability and going to the opposite field consistently) and the Tigers' entire pitching staff collapse in terms of errors also helps.

 

It's kind of like small market teams who can point to the A's, Rays, Twins and Marlins as "success" stories or reasons for hope.

 

Then again, if you remember that 2003 Marlins team, they had just about incredible pitching...while the 97 Marlins' World Series was bought with free agents, largely. But their pitching wasn't bad, either.

 

The Red Sox approach seems the best for now....albeit we will always be $40-50 million below their payroll. Continuous development and nurturing of the farm system, occasional international stars (Dice-K, our "Cuban" connection) spliced with "value" acquisitions where you are "rolling the the dice" with minimmal, low risk/high reward deals that are quite unlike the Yankees (Colon, Baldelli, Kotsay, Smoltz, Penny, Saito).

 

 

 

[Jimbo's Drinker]

I did call 4th place back in the winter!

 

This team is far from anything good, too many bandaids on many open wounds.

[Greg Hibbard]

you dont believe the Sox have a shot. We all get that, as you have been repeating it for the past 2 seasons(maybe more).

 

How about I dont tell you that you have to believe in this team, and you dont tell me that I shouldnt believe in this team, we can agree to disagree and move on.

 

I told you mid-last season I thought the White Sox would probably win the division and then get swept in the playoffs. Sorry I was one game off, but I think my projection was pretty damned realistic.

 

2007 was an easy read for almost anyone.

 

I believe in components of this team, but I'd like for us to approach this season in a different way. I do not see any equity in trying to get in this season by trading away prospects for quick fix 3 month rentals this July. I'm much more interested in developing Beckham, for example, and seeing what other guys like Poreda etc can do at this level this season. Contreras and Colon are anathema to my philosophy about what the White Sox should be doing right now.

 

As I said, this was always a rebuilding year, it's too bad that Ken Williams is dressing it up otherwise.

[Jimbo's Drinker]

I told you mid-last season I thought the White Sox would probably win the division and then get swept in the playoffs. Sorry I was one game off, but I think my projection was pretty damned realistic.

 

2007 was an easy read for almost anyone.

 

I believe in components of this team, but I'd like for us to approach this season in a different way. I do not see any equity in trying to get in this season by trading away prospects for quick fix 3 month rentals this July. I'm much more interested in developing Beckham, for example, and seeing what other guys like Poreda etc can do at this level this season. Contreras and Colon are anathema to my philosophy about what the White Sox should be doing right now.

 

As I said, this was always a rebuilding year, it's too bad that Ken Williams is dressing it up otherwise.

 

 

Wish we could trade PK, while he is hitting well.

[Kyyle23]

I told you mid-last season I thought the White Sox would probably win the division and then get swept in the playoffs. Sorry I was one game off, but I think my projection was pretty damned realistic.

 

2007 was an easy read for almost anyone.

 

I believe in components of this team, but I'd like for us to approach this season in a different way. I do not see any equity in trying to get in this season by trading away prospects for quick fix 3 month rentals this July. I'm much more interested in developing Beckham, for example, and seeing what other guys like Poreda etc can do at this level this season. Contreras and Colon are anathema to my philosophy about what the White Sox should be doing right now.

 

As I said, this was always a rebuilding year, it's too bad that Ken Williams is dressing it up otherwise.

 

 

Good, you know everything and everyone else doesnt. We are settled then

[NorthSideSox72]

Maybe I just remember the 1987 Minnesota Twins and the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals. I will never get sick of the White Sox making the postseason where anything can happen. Who knows, if Quentin doesn't get hurt and the White Sox are able to align their rotation correctly in the playoffs, what happens last season. You don't have to lead everyday like the 2005 White Sox. If the ball doesn't go through Graffinino's legs in 2005 and El Duque is left off the playoff roster like KW wanted and most of Soxtalk wanted as well, the White Sox probably don't make it out of the first round then. Anything can happen, any team can get hot. I don't think this team is good enough to win, but if they get there its not like the NBA where only a couple teams have a realistic shot. Look at how many wildcard teams have won it all. If the WS title is the only thing that floats your boat, 1 in 92 years must make you very ornery. I know a quick exit sucks, but at least you have a shot. There is nothing to indicate the White Sox are on the verge of a long run of winning WS. There is a lot of luck involved.

Agreed, nicely put.

 

Also... If all a fan gives a damn about is championships, and everything else is irrelevant, then that fan (for basically any team) will go through life very disappointed. Having a team make the post-season is way better than not, and making a run at a division title is way better than being in the basement all year.

 

[caulfield12]

2003 Marlins, 91-71

1997 Marlins, 92-70

1990 Reds, 91-71

1987 Twins, 85-77

2001 Diamondbacks, 92-70

 

Those were the teams, that, looking back over the last 20-30 years, along with the '06 Cardinals, seem the most "anomalous."

 

However, they all won 90+ games, with one exception, the Twins, who had a simply incredible homefield advantage.

 

The D-Backs had amazing starting pitching, the Reds had a lockdown bullpen, and both those Marlins teams were incredibly talented.

 

The only comparison and hope for the White Sox is the example of the Cardinals, but we certainly don't have a player as singularly good as Pujols.

[Dick Allen]

The 1987 Minnesota Twins and 2006 St. Louis Cardinals are two examples out of the last 30 or so years of seemingly bad teams getting in that won it all, and probably the ONLY two teams among many.

 

You asked "how many WC have won the world series?" How does this apply? The WC team could have the second best record in the league. The worst division winner cannot - and that's the scenario we are looking at here. Can you please tell me how the wild card will be coming out of the central this season?

 

How about this instead - since 1995, how many times has the worst division winner in either respective league won the world series? How many times has a team that has won less than 90 games won the world series? I'll bet it's less than 10%. You're saying that banking on that 5-10% or so statistical historical chance we would have to win the World Series is a mindset we should have year after year after year....are you serious? I'd ask you if you treat similar statistical chances in the same way?

 

Just so I have this straight- in this same paragraph you assume that if we lose game 3 of the first round of the 2005 divisional playoffs while up 2-0, we probably don't win the series whatsoever. That is what you're saying, right? probably. Is this like saying if we win the division with 83 wins this season, we probably win the world series?

If the White Sox win 75 games this year and win their division they have a chance to win the WS. If they win 85 games and come in third they have a zero percent chance of winning. I would take the winning the division. BTW the pct. of WC winners and not so good team winners of the WS is ALOT higher than the pct. of White Sox winners even after being awful for many years, so I'm taking the Lloyd Christmas approach "So you're saying there's a chance."

 

As for 2005, I mentioned the ball rolling through Grafinino's legs. That was game 2. Iguchi homered next for the White Sox lead and their final runs of the night. If the ball doesn't roll through his legs, once again, a much longer shot than a WC team or the playoff team with the worst record winning the WS, the series is 1-1 And if El Duque isn't around to save the day game 3, there's a very reasonable chance the Sox would be down 2-1. Who knows what happens after that, but the odds would be against them and even if they came back the pitching rotation could be screwed up for the next round.

 

I'm not saying that is what the Sox should shoot for year after year. I've bashed them for the first time ever this year in regards to going cheap. Their roster is far from what I had hoped it would be, far from the aggressiveness the GM always chirps about. But they aren't going to spend money so we just must try to enjoy what we have to look at, and thank our lucky stars the AL Central is pretty weak. Come October, I'd rather be the first place team in the AL central than the 3rd place team in the AL east, and that team or even the 4th place team probably is better.

[caulfield12]

Agreed, nicely put.

 

Also... If all a fan gives a damn about is championships, and everything else is irrelevant, then that fan (for basically any team) will go through life very disappointed. Having a team make the post-season is way better than not, and making a run at a division title is way better than being in the basement all year.

 

 

See Braves and Indians fans from the 1990's, Browns, KC Chiefs and Buffalo Bills fans from the 80's and 90's and Susan Lucci fans hoping for a daytime Emmy award for her.

 

We all know the answer, but do A's and Twins' fans feel more of a sense of accomplishment because their teams consistently competed in the playoffs more often than not?

 

Of course, Yankees/Cubs/Red Sox fans are in a different category, but I think we have almost reached the point where we could compare our franchise to the Cardinals, although they own the city of St. Louis in terms of fan support. I'm thinking more in terms of attendance and payroll, although I can't imagine we will come close to their attendance numbers this year.

Edited May 4, 2009 by caulfield12

[Greg Hibbard]

Good, you know everything and everyone else doesnt. We are settled then

 

I never said this.

[Dick Allen]

2003 Marlins, 91-71

1997 Marlins, 92-70

1990 Reds, 91-71

1987 Twins, 85-77

2001 Diamondbacks, 92-70

 

Those were the teams, that, looking back over the last 20-30 years, along with the '06 Cardinals, seem the most "anomalous."

 

However, they all won 90+ games, with one exception, the Twins, who had a simply incredible homefield advantage.

 

The D-Backs had amazing starting pitching, the Reds had a lockdown bullpen, and both those Marlins teams were incredibly talented.

 

The only comparison and hope for the White Sox is the example of the Cardinals, but we certainly don't have a player as singularly good as Pujols.

Pujols hit .200 in the 2006 WS with 2 RBI. He drove in one run in the 2006 NLCS.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

If the White Sox win 75 games this year and win their division they have a chance to win the WS. If they win 85 games and come in third they have a zero percent chance of winning. I would take the winning the division. BTW the pct. of WC winners and not so good team winners of the WS is ALOT higher than the pct. of White Sox winners even after being awful for many years, so I'm taking the Lloyd Christmas approach "So you're saying there's a chance."

 

As for 2005, I mentioned the ball rolling through Grafinino's legs. That was game 2. Iguchi homered next for the White Sox lead and their final runs of the night. If the ball doesn't roll through his legs, once again, a much longer shot than a WC team or the playoff team with the worst record winning the WS, the series is 1-1 And if El Duque isn't around to save the day game 3, there's a very reasonable chance the Sox would be down 2-1. Who knows what happens after that, but the odds would be against them and even if they came back the pitching rotation could be screwed up for the next round.

 

I'm not saying that is what the Sox should shoot for year after year. I've bashed them for the first time ever this year in regards to going cheap. Their roster is far from what I had hoped it would be, far from the aggressiveness the GM always chirps about. But they aren't going to spend money so we just must try to enjoy what we have to look at, and thank our lucky stars the AL Central is pretty weak. Come October, I'd rather be the first place team in the AL central than the 3rd place team in the AL east, and that team or even the 4th place team probably is better.

 

I'm assuming you are talking about the "awful" time from the mid 60's through the 1980's (of course, 1967, 1977 and 1983 were nice, but blips on the radar) and not the last 20 years.

 

If you compare our records with any team in baseball from pretty much period in baseball (for a ten year period) starting from 1990 through 2008, we trail only the Yankees, Braves and, in some comparisons, the Red Sox. We've been remarkably consistent in terms of putting out decent/good to very good/great teams over that time period, with the Bevington/early Manuel years being the only "lull" period.

 

 

 

 

[Soxfest]

KW did not do a very good job with extra income from last year this winter improving the team for 2009!

[caulfield12]

Pujols hit .200 in the 2006 WS.

 

 

Okay, I'll ask this question.

 

Can the argument possibly be made that we (2009 White Sox) are better or even with that 2006 Cardinals' team?