KW should be embarassed

[caulfield12]

The more I think about it, the more I just want to be entertained by the White Sox this season. I had no championship aspirations for this roster, but at least be competitive in every game and put together good at bats, etc. Hopefully things get better soon, and the games are more enjoyable. That will relieve a lot of the tension on this site and Caulfield won't have to start another new thread every other day.

 

 

I have three more weeks of vacation, then I have to go back to "real life" in Thailand and won't have 24 hours to devote to obsessing over the White Sox.

 

I am going to the White Sox/Twins game on the 21st. I think that will be the first White Sox game I've been able to attend in Chicago for 7 years.

 

Hopefully we won't have been mathematically eliminated by Kyle Davies, the Tigers, Rangers and Blue Jays (because we play SO SO well in TOR).

[ptatc]

We had this discussion before.

 

It will be a disaster if Walker tries to make Flowers, Beckham, Allen and Viciedo patented "lift and pull" hitters. They've all consistently shown their best power to the opposite field this season.

 

I think everyone goes overboard on Walker for the offense year after year.

 

Your earlier point about Liilibridge is that he doesn't pull the ball. Jim Thome hits many homers the to the opposite field.

Maybe it's just the fact that to win at comiskey you need to hit homeruns, so KW has put together a homerun hitting team. Since most hitters hit more homeruns if they pull the ball, this is what the hitters do. They see the way the ball flies out of this park and start to hit that way. Very few coaches at the professional level will totally change the way a player plays. They will tweak it and adjust it, but not totally change it. If the hitter has a good hitting style to hit the opposite way they will. Iguchi was a good example, I don't recall Walker wrecking him.

 

When a team is missing a third of their starters (Fields, Anderson and Dye) one of whom is the clenup hitter, the team will struggle to score runs.

 

JMHO

Edited May 5, 2009 by ptatc

[caulfield12]

Bailey's been dominant in AAA his last four starts. He went back to his old delivery. I don't want to start the debate again, but maybe Coop wouldn't have to do much "fixin".

 

 

Well, obviously Jocketty would be insane to trade him...when it's far from clear the Reds can stay with the Cardinals and Cubs or the wild card all season long.

 

They have to build around pitching and not one year "band aid" solutions, so I would be shocked if they traded for Dye now.

 

Darn you, Hal McCoy!

[scenario]

I think everyone goes overboard on Walker for the offense year after year.

 

^^^^^^

 

Funny how we didn't hear much about Walk when we were 6th in MLB in runs scored last year.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I think everyone goes overboard on Walker for the offense year after year.

 

Your earlier point about Liilibridge is that he doesn't pull the ball. Jim Thome hits many homers the to the opposite field.

Maybe it's just the fact that to win at comiskey you need to hit homeruns, so KW has put together a homerun hitting team. Since most hitters hit more homeruns if they pull the ball, this is what the hitters do. They see the way the ball flies out of this park and start to hit that way. Very few coaches at the professional level will totally change the way a player plays. They will tweak it and adjust it, but not totally change it. If the hitter has a good hitting style to hit the opposite way they will. Iguchi was a good example, I don't recall Walker wrecking him.

 

When a team is missing a third of their starters (Fields, Anderson and Dye) one of whom is the clenup hitter, the team will struggle to score runs.

 

JMHO

 

 

It's FAR from clear that Fields and Anderson have the ability to be big league regulars over a 5 year time horizon.

 

But it's great you brought up two examples of players who haven't thrived or excelled under Walker and Guillen...because those two are exactly the kind of players (unless Josh is going back to the 30 HR style of hitting that's been lost to his new David Ortiz-ish opposite field approach) that need to do the little things well and support the core of the line-up.

 

The problem is that you can't have a 3B with 10-15 homers and 60 RBI's who is ALSO below average defensively.

 

Lillibridge, Pods, Owens and Miller are lost causes.

 

I still have high hopes for Getz and Nix, although I see no possible way they all fit into a future picture with Ramirez and Beckham in the middle infield.

 

Moving either Getz or Beckham to 3B makes them much less valuable, although we could probably live with Gordon at 3B.

 

If Lillibridge only hits to 1/3rd of the field, the defensive alignments will start to kill him even more.

Edited May 5, 2009 by caulfield12

[fathom]

^^^^^^

 

Funny how we didn't hear much about Walk when we were 6th in MLB in runs scored last year.

 

We heard a lot about him when Ozzie basically feuded with him.

[caulfield12]

^^^^^^

 

Funny how we didn't hear much about Walk when we were 6th in MLB in runs scored last year.

 

Since you follow the minor leagues as much as anyone here, do you "trust" Greg Walker to be the best possible hitting coach for the Birmingham Five???

 

Obviously we're not going to pry Rudy Jaramillo from Texas and I'm not even sure Walt Hrniak is alive, but aren't there any better options out there?

 

We've had this same approach for a decade, and maybe it will never change unless they move the fences back at USCF. Maybe it doesn't even matter what our offense does, it's completely dependent upon Cooper and the pitching staff on a year to year basis, whether we're a good/decent or REALLY good team each year.

[fathom]

I still have high hopes for Getz and Nix, although I see no possible way they all fit into a future picture with Ramirez and Beckham in the middle infield.

 

Moving either Getz or Beckham to 3B makes them much less valuable, although we could probably live with Gordon at 3B.

 

The only way we can capitalize on our young position players and putting them at the position on the field to get the most value from them is Getz at 2B, Beckham at SS, and Alexei in CF. If you put one of them at 3B, they lose so much of their value (especially Beckham).

[Leonard Zelig]

It will be a disaster if Walker tries to make Flowers, Beckham, Allen and Viciedo patented "lift and pull" hitters. They've all consistently shown their best power to the opposite field this season.

 

Where do you get this information on where the minor league guys hit the ball?

[caulfield12]

Beckham (2B), Ramirez (SS) and Shelby/Danks >> Beckham (SS), Getz (2B), Ramirez in CF

 

Ramirez is better than Beckham at SS, Beckham is/can be equal or better than Getz at 2B and both of our young outfielders will be much better defensively than Alexei in CF.

[fathom]

Beckham (2B), Ramirez (SS) and Shelby/Danks >> Beckham (SS), Getz (2B), Ramirez in CF

 

Ramirez is better than Beckham at SS, Beckham is/can be equal or better than Getz at 2B and both of our young outfielders will be much better defensively than Alexei in CF.

 

Getz is a quality player, and he could make either a solid #2 hitter or a potentially great #9 hitter.

[fathom]

Where do you get this information on where the minor league guys hit the ball?

 

Caulfield listens to every Barons game I believe.

[caulfield12]

Where do you get this information on where the minor league guys hit the ball?

 

 

From listening to most of the Barons games this season...all four of those guys have sprayed the ball all over the field.

 

I would say there might even be some concern that Viciedo is hitting 75% of his balls to RF and RCF.

 

Flowers' greatest power is to CF, although he can hit the ball well out of the stadium in any direction...he's had quite a few doubles to both CF gaps.

 

Beckham usually homers to LF, but he's a tremendous hitter to the opposite field and up the middle when down in the count. And Gordon has simply been a doubles machine so far this season.

Edited May 5, 2009 by caulfield12

[macsandz]

Not for losing to Greinke tonight, that was pretty much a given and was one of those bets you ALMOST make but you can't really bring yourself to bet against the White Sox, no matter what.

 

1) Nix had played in 9 minor and major league games before his appearance at 3B. He threw one ball into the ground that Konerko miraculously snagged or it would have been runners on 2nd and 3rd. He also muffed a double play ball and almost didn't get the out at 1B.

 

1B) Wilson Betemit is now officially superfluous. This team would be better off with Uribe as the back-up across the infield. If you can't trust him to play 3B against Greinke, then you might as well just release him or wait for Thome to go down again so he can be the starting DH. Playing against tough RHP was SUPPOSEDLY the area where he excelled, at least last year.

 

2) Lillibridge has no business near CF (see yesterday's boot) or in the White Sox line-up, PERIOD. He hasn't hit a ball to the left of second base all season long. He has taken feeble/anemic swings 3-4 times already this season, getting baserunners like Anderson and now Pods thrown out easily on botched hit-and-runs. He makes almost as little contact as Josh Fields, and it's borderline nauseating now to watch.

 

If you're not going to play Pods in CF, you might as well stick Nix out there, since he's NEVER even played the outfield in a major league game...still, he managed to look better than both Pods and Lillibridge respectively. Imagine if we lost a one run game because of Lillibridge and Pods being out there.

 

3) Pods playing AT ALL in RF is a permanent stain on all ML RFers. He can't judge flyballs (he never took good routes), he has to have the worst arm in the history of those who have ever played RF for even a single game (as a starter) and he's no longer a threat on the basepaths. The only thing he does (now) is work the count a little bit and get a few walks.

 

It would really be better if KW just was honest that this team wasn't constructed to repeat in 2009 and that he wanted to build a team capable of winning and going deep into the playoffs in 2010/2011/2012. The fans are smart enough to know that players like Jerry Owens, Lillibridge, Corky Miller, Jack Egbert and Lance Broadway aren't really major league quality contributors...at least on winning teams.

 

There's nothing OFFICIAL about anything 5 weeks into the season. Except that you already need to step away from the White Sox, chill and find a way to get laid.

[bmags]

It's starting to feel a scary amount like 2007 to me.

[witesoxfan]

I am not holding my breath on them spending money next off-season.

 

As far as KW, I understand not having money to really improve the team, but some of these roster decisions were again made to stroke his ego and I'm sure the smug bastard is hoping for another "I told you so" opportunity at the end of the season. Whatever.

 

I still enjoy seeing that quote

[greg775]

It's starting to feel a scary amount like 2007 to me.

 

I just wish we could hit the f***ing ball on a consistent basis. Even last year we were jeckyll and hyde offensively.

I know we did fine overall in runs scored.

But it's maddening to watch us make out after out and like the other night when we went station to station on singles.

If we are a home run hitting team again, I guess I wish we'd hit more f***ing home runs.

We are pretty anemic.

[G&T]

I just wish we could hit the f***ing ball on a consistent basis. Even last year we were jeckyll and hyde offensively.

I know we did fine overall in runs scored.

But it's maddening to watch us make out after out and like the other night when we went station to station on singles.

If we are a home run hitting team again, I guess I wish we'd hit more f***ing home runs.

We are pretty anemic.

 

This is because no one will cut their swing and go the other way. I used to defend Greg Walker and blame the hitters, which I still sorta do. But there is no excuse for a pitcher exposing the low and outside hole in every swing, for the last THREE YEARS. And it's not even like the swings are close. No one bends their knees and tries to foul it off or go to the opposite field. The just take a normal cut and miss by 3 feet.

The only reason I don't entirely blame Walker is because these are power hitters and they know how to hit home runs. But these guys should realize that there is another aspect to hitting and try to learn it so they aren't exposed by the same damn hole.

 

The reason this really pisses me off is because of learning hitting skills other than power, KW believes he needs speed guys to balance the lineup. So instead of getting good players he gets bad ones who can't hit anything but can run fast. But they all have the same hole.

Edited May 5, 2009 by G&T

[Dick Allen]

I am not holding my breath on them spending money next off-season.

 

As far as KW, I understand not having money to really improve the team, but some of these roster decisions were again made to stroke his ego and I'm sure the smug bastard is hoping for another "I told you so" opportunity at the end of the season. Whatever.

I agree with this 100%. There's really no other explanation for a guy like Brent Lillibridge being on the major league roster. He talked him up when he acquired him saying he's been after him for a couple of years. He didn't hit in the majors last year. He didn't hit in the minors last year. He didn't hit in spring training, and he hasn't hit so far this season. Its not like he's a 20 or 21 year old kid. Then to make him even worse, you put him in CF where he is on a good day average defensively. Check the ego at the door and get baseball players. There is no reason this team should have been 2nd in all of baseball in slashing payroll after last season. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Too bad that hasn't held true for White Sox ticketholders, the people who pay more per game than fans of any team other than the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and Cubs, yet this year.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

I agree with this 100%. There's really no other explanation for a guy like Brent Lillibridge being on the major league roster. He talked him up when he acquired him saying he's been after him for a couple of years. He didn't hit in the majors last year. He didn't hit in the minors last year. He didn't hit in spring training, and he hasn't hit so far this season. Its not like he's a 20 or 21 year old kid. Then to make him even worse, you put him in CF where he is on a good day average defensively. Check the ego at the door and get baseball players. There is no reason this team should have been 2nd in all of baseball in slashing payroll after last season. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Too bad that hasn't held true for White Sox ticketholders, the people who pay more per game than fans of any team other than the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and Cubs, yet this year.

 

This is beginning to feel like the late 80's and late 90's.

 

We're in a transition year.

 

It would have been much better if they kept season tickets at the same prices, admitted they were going to cut payroll (using the downturn or Tucson as excuses, lack of revenues from ST ticket sales, etc.) and been MORE honest with the fans about the realistic goal being to compete in 2010-12.

 

Now there's the danger that we have a season somewhat like 2007, except not quite that bad, because nobody will run away with the division and we'll sort of be in the race for most of the season...but we'll lose a lot of the walk-up crowd that only comes out when we have good teams. Those casual Sox fans that don't show up until mid-to-late May won't come out and spend their hard-earned dollars on this.

 

Having lived in KC for 10 years, it's nice to see the fans finally coming out to support their team on a Monday night and really getting into it. Of course, it helps to have the best pitcher in baseball, but I can't remember going into a Royals game in my lifetime (well, since the mid 80's) where you felt there was about a 5-10% to win the game, especially without Dye. Almost 22,000 sounds like a disappointment, but not when you look at their average Monday night attendance in April/May over the last decade.

 

Royals fans are a lot like White Sox fans. They simply refuse to turn out for bad or average baseball, but they'll start filling that park in May and June if the Royals continue to be in or near first place. With Hochevar tearing up AAA now, they have a legit chance to compete when they add him to their rotation again.

 

As far as checking the ego at the door with KW goes, I think it all depends on Flowers with that trade (and, of course, we never know how Gilmore and Rodriguez will turn out 3-5 years from now). If he can catch in the big leagues with that type of power and plate discipline (above the level of Victor Martinez at least), then the trade will be a huge success, but certainly not in 2009. It's hard to name more than a couple of catchers in baseball who give you that type of offense.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2009 by caulfield12

[klaus kinski]

Funny that Guillen escapes any responsibility here-he's the one that puts in second string players all at once rather than giving starters rest one at a time. Yes there have been injuries, but he has not put substitutes in the best situations for them to contribute. And I will never understand why our hitters keep getting hit and knocked down with no retaliation. Is this possibly affecting our hitters?

[hogan873]

I do agree that KW should be embarassed. Not, however, because of how this team is playing, but because he believes (or wants US to believe) that this team has a chance this year. Sure, this year could be considered a rebuilding year, but what is KW going to do come the trade deadline? If the Sox are not in the hunt (and they may actually be only because of the division) who does he trade to get fresh young talent? And if there is a bunch of money saved will he go after some worthy free agents next off season?

[RME JICO]

Would we be seeing any of these players if Getz, Anderson, Thome, Fields, and Dye didn't miss any time? Those 5 with Quentin, Konerko, AJ, and Ramirez make up a pretty decent lineup.

[lostfan]

Would we be seeing any of these players if Getz, Anderson, Thome, Fields, and Dye didn't miss any time? Those 5 with Quentin, Konerko, AJ, and Ramirez make up a pretty decent lineup.

Get that reason, logic, and sense out of here.

[NorthSideSox72]

Would we be seeing any of these players if Getz, Anderson, Thome, Fields, and Dye didn't miss any time? Those 5 with Quentin, Konerko, AJ, and Ramirez make up a pretty decent lineup.

Thank you.

 

I love this over the top stuff, its hilarious. OMG WTF WE HAVE NO CHANCE!!!!! Please, we're a couple games out, in a weak division, despite having a number of key players missing time, all of whom are recently back or will come back soon. The 2008 team was under .500 later in the season than this.