Lance deserves his own thread

[NorthSideSox72]

That's the Javy Vazquez syndrome, spinning his numbers so he looks good. He came in with the bases loaded the other day and gave up a GS. He only gets charged with 1 run. He comes in with 2 on last night, they both score. His numbers for those 2 games, both which could have been wins but were losses, look a lot better than his performance. He didn't do his job no matter how many strikeouts he had.

 

The bullpen wasn't very sharp last night although Floyd had enough run support to make that a non-issue, but he was terrible. Just a badly pitched game by the White Sox.

 

Broadway blows, but I don't know how you would expect anything but what happened to happen to him last night.

I'm not saying Matt did well - I'm saying he did badly, but he does well more often than most relievers in baseball, so he is the least of my concerns.

 

[Kyyle23]

This is what makes baseball fun...a player can rake in college and the minors and suck in the show. Or a player can be drafted in the 38th or 51st round and be hugely successful. And if anyone on this board thinks they can see what player is going to be better than another...your unicorn is waiting to take you back to Fantasyland.

 

 

[Steve9347]

It's going to be a looooooong year at Soxtalk.

[almagest]

your unicorn is waiting to take you back to Fantasyland.

Yay!

 

[Felix]

winner!

[Dick Allen]

I would like to see how many teams have a system so stocked that it can replace, at the drop of the hat, 5-7 roster spots with major league quality replacements. To remind you...

 

The Sox are down THREE CF. Even if two of those weren't any good...one was doing better and he's injured.

The Sox are still rebuilding their system using the Buddy Bell method, and if you look at AA on down, doing a pretty good job of it.

The Sox were trying to give some of their young talent a chance to succeed. Owens failed. Lilli is failing. Getz is succeeding. Fields is succeeding. Ramirez is having a Sophomore slump (hopefully). Danks is succeeding for the most part. Floyd is 50/50 right now.

 

No team, other than the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs can just sign players willy-nilly for ridiculous contracts. Does it suck? Sure it does, but we are 26 games into the season. And if worse comes to worse, they start selling off players at the deadline to get more good, quality young players so some of you can shut the hell up about how the minors are barren or they aren't ready yet.

 

This is what makes baseball fun...a player can rake in college and the minors and suck in the show. Or a player can be drafted in the 38th or 51st round and be hugely successful. And if anyone on this board thinks they can see what player is going to be better than another...your unicorn is waiting to take you back to Fantasyland.

 

3 CF

Wise career BA .215 Career OPS .631

BA career BA .227 Career OPS .660

Owens I would guess is #3 Career BA .262 Career OPS .624

 

It shouldn't be too hard to replace.

 

Why is it on year 9 of KW's rein we are just starting to see something that may be useful in year 10 of his rein from the minor leagues? If Duane Schaffer was so bad, how come it took KW 7 years to figure it out.

 

The White Sox employ a lot of people and pay a few of them a lot of money to select players. Guys on this board could probably have drafted just as well over several years. There is no excuse.

 

As for trading high priced players for good prospects at the deadline if the Sox aren't contending. Good luck. Its a new world. If teams won't sign players to one or two year contracts at steep discounts because they won't give up a draft pick, why would they take on a high salaried guy and give up a player they have already paid a bonus and spent a lot on developing, who has shown at the professional level he has potential ?

 

There is no question the White Sox system is better today than it was a year ago and beyond. Unfortunately, years and years of neglect means that what gets called up now is pretty close to pure garbage.

 

As long as guys like Lillibridge and Marquez are spoken of gushingly, the system needs tweaking.

[southsider2k5]

I would like to see how many teams have a system so stocked that it can replace, at the drop of the hat, 5-7 roster spots with major league quality replacements. To remind you...

 

The Sox are down THREE CF. Even if two of those weren't any good...one was doing better and he's injured.

The Sox are still rebuilding their system using the Buddy Bell method, and if you look at AA on down, doing a pretty good job of it.

The Sox were trying to give some of their young talent a chance to succeed. Owens failed. Lilli is failing. Getz is succeeding. Fields is succeeding. Ramirez is having a Sophomore slump (hopefully). Danks is succeeding for the most part. Floyd is 50/50 right now.

 

No team, other than the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs can just sign players willy-nilly for ridiculous contracts. Does it suck? Sure it does, but we are 26 games into the season. And if worse comes to worse, they start selling off players at the deadline to get more good, quality young players so some of you can shut the hell up about how the minors are barren or they aren't ready yet.

 

This is what makes baseball fun...a player can rake in college and the minors and suck in the show. Or a player can be drafted in the 38th or 51st round and be hugely successful. And if anyone on this board thinks they can see what player is going to be better than another...your unicorn is waiting to take you back to Fantasyland.

 

Ah, that's a horse with a sword on his head, and he's there to guard my hopes and dreams.

[Dick Allen]

I'm not saying Matt did well - I'm saying he did badly, but he does well more often than most relievers in baseball, so he is the least of my concerns.

I think the bullpen will be alright, at least for the first 100 games or so.

[Chisoxfn]

I realize injuries happen, but when the guys that didn't make the roster or that forced the Sox to be in this spot are Brian Anderson, Jerry Owens, Mike MacDougal, than you know what, its the organizations own freaking fault.

 

I can give passes for the lineup when Dye and Fields were hurt or even Getz cause you know what, they were quality guys to have but the other guys, no, not quality. Now I think BA is a major leaguer but he's the rare exception and I was encouraged by what he did in his limited play but I still think everyone sees that there is a massive hole in his swing that will prevent him from being an everyday big leaguer.

 

Bottom line, this team had some serious holes before it broke camp and thats the GM's fault. Kenny's done a lot of great things, but some of the holes he left the Sox with weren't one of them this year. I can make a case that his hands were tied, but some of these holes have existed for years.

 

Still, all that said, this team should still at least compete.

[CanOfCorn]

3 CF

Wise career BA .215 Career OPS .631

BA career BA .227 Career OPS .660

Owens I would guess is #3 Career BA .262 Career OPS .624

 

It shouldn't be too hard to replace.

 

Why is it on year 9 of KW's rein we are just starting to see something that may be useful in year 10 of his rein from the minor leagues? If Duane Schaffer was so bad, how come it took KW 7 years to figure it out.

 

The White Sox employ a lot of people and pay a few of them a lot of money to select players. Guys on this board could probably have drafted just as well over several years. There is no excuse.

 

As for trading high priced players for good prospects at the deadline if the Sox aren't contending. Good luck. Its a new world. If teams won't sign players to one or two year contracts at steep discounts because they won't give up a draft pick, why would they take on a high salaried guy and give up a player they have already paid a bonus and spent a lot on developing, who has shown at the professional level he has potential ?

 

There is no question the White Sox system is better today than it was a year ago and beyond. Unfortunately, years and years of neglect means that what gets called up now is pretty close to pure garbage.

 

As long as guys like Lillibridge and Marquez are spoken of gushingly, the system needs tweaking.

 

Because this team, at times, is loyal to a fault. Which is good and bad.

[scenario]

The White Sox employ a lot of people and pay a few of them a lot of money to select players. Guys on this board could probably have drafted just as well over several years.

 

And if you really believe that.... another purple unicorn for you.

 

 

Yeah the Sox made some bad picks... as did every other organization in MLB. But the reason we have no MLB ready prospects in AAA this year is NOT the result of bad draft choices, it's the result of trades. Imagine how different the world would look if we hadn't traded Chris Young, Aaron Cunningham, and Ryan Sweeney for example. I don't think people would be sitting and asking why we can't find major league ready outfielders in our system.

Edited May 6, 2009 by scenario

[Balta1701]

Yeah the Sox made some bad picks... as did every other organization in MLB. But the reason we have no MLB ready prospects in AAA this year is NOT the result of bad draft choices, it's the result of trades. Imagine how different the world would look if we hadn't traded Chris Young, Aaron Cunningham, and Ryan Sweeney for example. I don't think people would be sitting and asking why we can't find major league ready outfielders in our system.

They'd be asking why we held on to guys like Chris Young and Ryan Sweeney for so long when they're putting up the #'s they currently are. "Why can't the Sox ever develop the talent they draft! Our minor league development is terrible!" "Why didn't KW move these guys when they were worth something" they'd say. Greg Walker Delenda Est.

[Dick Allen]

And if you really believe that.... another purple unicorn for you.

 

 

Yeah the Sox made some bad picks... as did every other organization in MLB. But the reason we have no MLB ready prospects in AAA this year is NOT the result of bad draft choices, it's the result of trades. Imagine how different the world would look if we hadn't traded Chris Young, Aaron Cunningham, and Ryan Sweeney for example. I don't think people would be sitting and asking why we can't find major league ready outfielders in our system.

 

If the Sox still had Chris Young, they wouldn't have Tyler Flowers. Cunningham was a bad trade. Richar isn't even on Cincinatti's 40. If you trade a good prospect for a bust, that's on the Sox GM. No Sweeney, no Jon Garland Jr. in Marquez. I like Sweeney, but yesterday when I even mentioned him in the same sentence as Josh Fields, I was ripped. KW has traded some overhyped picks no doubt. He went for it with Carl Everett in 2003 so you can't fault him, but Frankie Francisco would look a lot better in the bullpen than Lance Broadway right now.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Dick Allen

[striker]

I actually thought Broadway's pitches looked good. His fastball was around 90 and had great movement. The results weren't want you wanted but sh#t happens.

[elrockinMT]

So we're going to start a thread after every loss dedicated to a player? It's not Broadway's fault. Much like Lillibridge, he has no business being in the majors.

 

 

Why change now? we always have done it this way

[The Ginger Kid]

Brian Bogusevic, who was the likely Sox pick if we didn't take Broadway, was even worse in the minors as a starter.

ellsbury was also available...

[greg775]

I actually thought Broadway's pitches looked good. His fastball was around 90 and had great movement. The results weren't want you wanted but sh#t happens.

 

All I can say is I disagree. The Broadway I was watching had me not believing what I was seeing. It looked like soft slop, so unusually bad I thought I'd start its own thread.

[scenario]

I know the Broadway-Ellsbury thing will keep coming up... as well as another other prospects we missed on.

 

But come on... hindsight...

 

In Broadway's last year of college, he was one of 3 finalists for the Roger Clemens Award. Threw 5 complete games in 16 starts, including 2 of his last 3 games... one over the #1 team in the country at the time. Had a 1.69 ERA on the season. Gave up only 2 homeruns in 117 innings. Yada yada...

 

And regarding the Clemens Award... here's how the voting works... the three finalists were selected in a second round of voting by all Division I head baseball coaches, a selection of national college baseball media, the 16 winners of the R. E. Bob Smith Award (college player of the year) and the three finalists from the first Clemens Award.

 

In other words, it wasn't like he some bum off the street. There was a fairly large group of knowledgeable people who thought he was one of the top 3 pitchers in the country.

Edited May 6, 2009 by scenario

[lostfan]

There is nothing more unfair than playing the "they drafted player A when player B could've been had."

 

The Bears drafted Curtis Enis instead of Randy Moss. They drafted Cade McNown instead of Champ Bailey.

[Chisoxfn]

All I can say is I disagree. The Broadway I was watching had me not believing what I was seeing. It looked like soft slop, so unusually bad I thought I'd start its own thread.

If Broadway is going to remind us of anyone, he's much more reminiscent of the typical Twins pitcher (or Non Santana/Liriano Twins pitcher). I'd say his upside would be simialr to that of Radke but there are plenty of guys with the ability to cut, move and change speeds like Radke (or even a Buehrle) but very few have the command that those guys have.

 

I still say Broadway will have an extended career in the big's, but it probably won't be with the Sox.

[Chisoxfn]

There is nothing more unfair than playing the "they drafted player A when player B could've been had."

 

The Bears drafted Curtis Enis instead of Randy Moss. They drafted Cade McNown instead of Champ Bailey.

Unless you know the team was targeting that guy or that you or the many people involved had a lot better guys higher on your board. For example, I will always b**** about the Sox drafting of Lucy when they did because I had seen Suzuki play for a long long time at Fullerton and knew he was the guy I wanted. I wanted him badly. Now the jury is obviously still out on him, but no one in baseball would say Lucy is a better prospect than Suzuki.

 

I will say that Lucy still has the potential to be a big league catcher, but probably not for this organization as it seems to not at all appreciate the defensive aspect of the game. Lucy is pretty darn good defensively, so was Stewart and neither have really ever gotten a fair shot with the Sox (Stewart got moved and eventually found his way back here again).

 

[Dick Allen]

I know the Broadway-Ellsbury thing will keep coming up... as well as another other prospects we missed on.

 

But come on... hindsight...

 

In Broadway's last year of college, he was one of 3 finalists for the Roger Clemens Award. Threw 5 complete games in 16 starts, including 2 of his last 3 games... one over the #1 team in the country at the time. Had a 1.69 ERA on the season. Gave up only 2 homeruns in 117 innings. Yada yada...

 

And regarding the Clemens Award... here's how the voting works... the three finalists were selected in a second round of voting by all Division I head baseball coaches, a selection of national college baseball media, the 16 winners of the R. E. Bob Smith Award (college player of the year) and the three finalists from the first Clemens Award.

 

In other words, it wasn't like he some bum off the street. There was a fairly large group of knowledgeable people who thought he was one of the top 3 pitchers in the country.

One of the top 3 pitchers in college doesn't make you one of the top 3 or 10 or 100 pitching prospects for the pros. There have been Heisman trophy winners that don't get drafted. It was a bad pick and it was supposed to be a "safe" pick. He didn't have a big upside. It was safe because it was assumed he would most likely and fairly quickly become a mediocre 4th or 5th starter.

[Chisoxfn]

One of the top 3 pitchers in college doesn't make you one of the top 3 or 10 or 100 pitching prospects for the pros. There have been Heisman trophy winners that don't get drafted. It was a bad pick and it was supposed to be a "safe" pick. He didn't have a big upside. It was safe because it was assumed he would most likely and fairly quickly become a mediocre 4th or 5th starter.

I think there are still quite a few people that believe he'll make it as a 4th or 5th starter in the majors. I just don't think they believe it will be with the Sox and I don't know if it will be this year. But if he sticks around he'll hone his command and have some serviceable (note that I say serviceable) major league years and will make himself at least a few million bucks playing this game (aside from the moeny he's already gotten).

[SoxAce]

Unless you know the team was targeting that guy or that you or the many people involved had a lot better guys higher on your board. For example, I will always b**** about the Sox drafting of Lucy when they did because I had seen Suzuki play for a long long time at Fullerton and knew he was the guy I wanted. I wanted him badly. Now the jury is obviously still out on him, but no one in baseball would say Lucy is a better prospect than Suzuki.

 

Dude.. we called that (and dan, tizzle etc..) nearly 4 years ago. Hell on the futuresox thread for Lucy's adopt a prospect thread we continued to not like it. BTW to Donny... I'm still waiting on you to prove me wrong.

[scenario]

I know this is a tangent from the Broadway conversation but I thought it was sort of interesting.

 

Two MLB center-fielders:

 

Player A (age 25)

2008 - .280/.336/.394/.730

2009 - .287/.320/.348/.668

 

Player B (age 24)

2008 - .286/.350/.383/.733

2009 - .270/.333/.360/.693

 

Look pretty similar? Who are they?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Player A = Jacoby Ellsbury

Player B = Ryan Sweeney

 

Just thought it was relevant given some of the angst about not using our 2005 1st round pick on Ellsbury.