GM Ken Williams criticizes pitchers for not protecting hitters

[Melissa1334]

Bulls*** it is. Talk to any old school pitcher and they'll tell you the importance of protecting your hitters and pitching inside. I was taught at a young age there is nothing wrong with hitting someone, as long as its because your protecting your teammates or more importantly establishing the inside of the plate. And I know I hit a lot of guys during all my years of pitching (despite having great control my entire, short-lived, career).

i agree. and i also think whoever is pitchng should know what to do. i dont think they should have to be told by ozzie or kenny or anyone to do something.

[Paint it Black]

No, not really actually. That's like saying Martin Havlat stood up for his teammates last night b/c he scored the tieing goal late in the 3rd. Valuable and essential to teams? Absolutely. Does it equate to "standing up for your teammates" as the thread is about? Absolutely not. Totally different things there.

 

But what "stings" or hurts the Canucks more? Stupid ass fighting and "sending a message" or winning that game and evening up that series? More on Hockey below, but why is there less fighting in the playoffs? Don't teams need to "send a message?" No, ofcourse not, teams are not taking stupid ass penalties that hurt their team. Same goes in baseball, or at least it's how I feel.

 

I bet you arent in favor of fighting in hockey either. Self policing in sports is something I am very in favor of doing, especially since AL pitchers dont have to face 90 mph fastballs at the plate.

 

Actually I don't mind it, but I was VERY embarrassed to be a Blackhawks fan after that crucial Canucks game at the end of the regular season, where all the fights happened. But notice how fighting is cut down a lot in the playoffs, why, because most of the time it's silly garbage. Yeah it's fun to watch, and sometimes fights are warranted, but anytime you can favor skill, speed, and talent over fighting, I'll take it.

 

And nobody has proved to me how a bean ball war helps a baseball team win more games. If it did, pitchers would be plunking every damn hitter they faced. Stop with the silly "hitters are more comfortable" argument, because I can just as easily say that hitters would fear another retaliation on our team, after we hit/brushed back one of their guys. Moreover, there is no statistical analysis that proves the bean ball argument. Brushbacks? fine with me. But this whole "we need to drill the next hitter" crap needs to die along with team chemistry, game to game momentum, etc etc.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

But what "stings" or hurts the Canucks more? Stupid ass fighting and "sending a message" or winning that game and evening up that series? More on Hockey below, but why is there less fighting in the playoffs? Don't teams need to "send a message?" No, ofcourse not, teams are not taking stupid ass penalties that hurt their team. Same goes in baseball, or at least it's how I feel.

 

If a player got run someone would definitely step up. Fighting is cut down because of Buttman and the idiotic way he and Cornhole Campbell have been running the league the last few years. Also, brawls are far more likely to occur in a one-sided playoff game than a regular series game. Why? To send a message for the remaining games in the series.

 

And nobody has proved to me how a bean ball war helps a baseball team win more games. If it did, pitchers would be plunking every damn hitter they faced. Stop with the silly "hitters are more comfortable" argument, because I can just as easily say that hitters would fear another retaliation on our team, after we hit/brushed back one of their guys. Moreover, there is no statistical analysis that proves the bean ball argument. Brushbacks? fine with me. But this whole "we need to drill the next hitter" crap needs to die along with team chemistry, game to game momentum, etc etc.

 

If a hitter is more comfortable, then he is more likely to have a good AB. If he has a good AB, he is more likely to achieve a positive result from that AB.

 

Oh, and pitchers would not "be plunking every damn hitter they faced" because that would lead to more men on base.

 

I love how you keep going back to plunking hitters left and right when the majority of people here keep saying that brushbacks send the same message and hitting opposing players is not necessarily what we are advocating them to do.

Edited May 8, 2009 by ChiSox_Sonix

[Brian]

Agree with KW, especially when it seems Q is taking the bean balls all the time.

[NorthSideSox72]

I feel this needs to be posted, for the umpteenth time... "beaning" someone means hitting them in the head. No one here, is endorsing that, I think, and hope. Pitching inside, even hitting a few guys, is part of the game, and sometimes needs to be done (for all the reasons above). But no one should promoting hitting guys in the head intentionally.

 

Just seems like people are saying "bean" someone, when they mean "hit" someone.

 

[lostfan]

Agree with KW, especially when it seems Q is taking the bean balls all the time.

He gets hit all the time because he crowds the plate, not because pitchers throw at him. Some players would back off, he chooses not to.

[NorthSideSox72]

Agree with KW, especially when it seems Q is taking the bean balls all the time.

I've actually never seen him get beaned - not once.

 

He usually gets it in the arm, shoulder, or back.

 

[Dick Allen]

He gets hit all the time because he crowds the plate, not because pitchers throw at him. Some players would back off, he chooses not to.

Yes, but White Sox hitters get hit a lot more than the opposition, and I don't think the majority are intentional, but............................. Its time to put something in the pitcher's mind. If they are going to come inside and hit a White Sox, one of their guys is going to pay the price. It can only help the White Sox offense if an opposing pitcher is even slightly less motivated to pitch inside.

[Paint it Black]

If a player got run someone would definitely step up. Fighting is cut down because of Buttman and the idiotic way he and Cornhole Campbell have been running the league the last few years. Also, brawls are far more likely to occur in a one-sided playoff game than a regular series game. Why? To send a message for the remaining games in the series.

 

 

 

If a hitter is more comfortable, then he is more likely to have a good AB. If he has a good AB, he is more likely to achieve a positive result from that AB.

 

Oh, and pitchers would not "be plunking every damn hitter they faced" because that would lead to more men on base.

 

I love how you keep going back to plunking hitters left and right when the majority of people here keep saying that brushbacks send the same message and hitting opposing players is not necessarily what we are advocating them to do.

 

 

Actually, fighting was up since years at past, at least at the all-star break. I can't find any numbers to see where it ended up, however. But the "sending a message" is another cliche that needs to go away. Again, send the message by beating them at hockey/baseball whatever. As a competitor, I'd be a lot more pissed about losing a game then some meaningless fight.

 

And just because a majority of people think it's right, doesn't make it so. I just don't see how hitting players or brushing them back directly effects the outcome of a baseball game (i.e. helps you win). Stop saying "because it makes them feel comfortable" because frankly it's unmeasurable and dumb to argue about. Get hitters out and beat them at baseball, that's what drives them nuts.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Actually, fighting was up since years at past, at least at the all-star break. I can't find any numbers to see where it ended up, however. But the "sending a message" is another cliche that needs to go away. Again, send the message by beating them at hockey/baseball whatever. As a competitor, I'd be a lot more pissed about losing a game then some meaningless fight.

 

And just because a majority of people think it's right, doesn't make it so. I just don't see how hitting players or brushing them back directly effects the outcome of a baseball game (i.e. helps you win).Stop saying "because it makes them feel comfortable" because frankly it's unmeasurable and dumb to argue about. Get hitters out and beat them at baseball, that's what drives them nuts.

 

Then stop saying it isnt true. And if you never played professional sports you really aren't in a position to know what affects who and how much it does/does not etc...

 

I'm gonna side with the opinion of players and coaches who advocate such techniques and "sending messages", which have gone on for years, you do what you want.

 

[RockRaines]

Actually I don't mind it, but I was VERY embarrassed to be a Blackhawks fan after that crucial Canucks game at the end of the regular season, where all the fights happened. But notice how fighting is cut down a lot in the playoffs, why, because most of the time it's silly garbage. Yeah it's fun to watch, and sometimes fights are warranted, but anytime you can favor skill, speed, and talent over fighting, I'll take it.

Brawls arent the only form of self policing, just like beaning someone is different than a brush back or a drill in the back. Playoff hockey still has alot of policing regardless of if it ends up in a fight. If Kaner gets knocked down hard, you bet your ass Eager or Barker will be in that guys grill immediately. Its the same with baseball, especially in the AL.

[RockRaines]

And just because a majority of people think it's right, doesn't make it so. I just don't see how hitting players or brushing them back directly effects the outcome of a baseball game (i.e. helps you win). Stop saying "because it makes them feel comfortable" because frankly it's unmeasurable and dumb to argue about. Get hitters out and beat them at baseball, that's what drives them nuts.

Please show how it being out of the game would directly affect the outcome of the game (i.e. helps you win).

 

 

Its becoming fairly clear you havent spent much time in a batters box or in a locker room.

[Texsox]

Two different issues.

 

Start throwing inside will keep the opposing batters off balance. It will not automatically stop the other team from throwing inside against yours. So at best, it evens things up.

[fathom]

As much as I agree with what KW said, sometimes it's better to keep this stuff out of the media. You don't want the umpires being on high alert and overreacting like they always seem to do. This is something that should have been taken care of by Ozzie already.

[kwolf68]

As much as I agree with what KW said, sometimes it's better to keep this stuff out of the media. You don't want the umpires being on high alert and overreacting like they always seem to do. This is something that should have been taken care of by Ozzie already.

 

 

+1.

 

I don't know what purpose KW has to push this out for mass consumption. He is a brilliant man, so there has to be a reason, but honesty I think Kenny just talks too much sometime.

[greg775]

Too bad our pitchers are such pussies Kenny had to take it to the media to get it done.

Now we will see suspensions/fights when we finally do plunk some hitters.

 

[CanOfCorn]

Baseball: Pitching inside is the way to go. If you hit a guy, you hit a guy...I don't necessarily believe in plunking a guy to send a message, but I sure as s*** believe that you need to pitch inside.

 

Hockey: Players are constantly sending messages during games, whether there's fight or not. Whether it's a quick stick to the calf or a minor cross-check in front of the net or face full of glove after the whistle...it's happening every game. Did you see game 3 when Big Buf screened the only 'hawks goal, turned around and mouthed off to Luongo? That's called sending a message. Is it wrong to do that? N...O...

[South Side Fireworks Man]

And nobody has proved to me how a bean ball war helps a baseball team win more games. If it did, pitchers would be plunking every damn hitter they faced.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating a "bean ball war". Let's see what KW actually said:

 

"You can't allow other teams to pitch inside and knock your players down and not reciprocate," Williams said Thursday, mindful that Sox batters have been drilled 14 times, compared to their opponents getting nailed four times.

 

"You can't do it. You have to establish the inside part of the plate and move hitters off the plate to open it up more. If you don't do that and allow the other team to do it to your hitters, then you're losing at both ends."

 

Nowhere does KW advocate throwing a bean ball nor even hitting anyone. He mentions pitching inside.

 

Stop with the silly "hitters are more comfortable" argument, because I can just as easily say that hitters would fear another retaliation on our team, after we hit/brushed back one of their guys.

 

If you don't believe hitters are more comfortable when they know the opposing pitcher will never move them off of the plate with an inside pitch, you must have never played baseball and haven't watched much baseball for too long either.

 

Moreover, there is no statistical analysis that proves the bean ball argument. Brushbacks? fine with me.

 

Again, your "bean ball argument" is a red herring. And now you contradict your previous statements by saying "Brushbacks? fine with me."

 

But this whole "we need to drill the next hitter" crap needs to die along with team chemistry, game to game momentum, etc etc.

Just a hunch, but I'll bet you get most of your opinions from listening to Boers and Bernstein.

 

Anyway, the point is that you can't let the opposing batters get too comfortable in leaning out over the plate. Keeping them honest with a few pitches off the inside corner every now and then and making them move around a little bit is an effective tactic for any pitcher. And allowing the opposition to continually move your batters off the plate and actually drilling a good number of them while your pitchers fail to even establish the inside of the plate and make their hitters move a little is just bad baseball.

 

The one thing that bothers me about all this is why did it get to the point where the GM had to say it? The White Sox under Ozzie have never handled this well. Ozzie always would talk about retaliation publicly resulting in the league and the umpires scrutinizing the Sox pitchers too closely, putting them at a disadvantage. Sox hitters would get drilled, and then the first time A Sox pitcher would hit an opposing batter, it would be the Sox who would get the warning.

 

The best way to handle this is to say nothing, let your pitcher do what needs to be done, and if questioned afterward say that it was just an unfortunate pitch that got away.

[ThunderBolt]

Just a hunch, but I'll bet you get most of your opinions from listening to Boers and Bernstein.

Or by not being a stereotypical meathead,

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Or by not being a stereotypical meathead,

OK, which one are you - Boers or Bernstein?

 

When you have to resort to name calling it just means you lost the argument.

[lostfan]

Yes, but White Sox hitters get hit a lot more than the opposition, and I don't think the majority are intentional, but............................. Its time to put something in the pitcher's mind. If they are going to come inside and hit a White Sox, one of their guys is going to pay the price. It can only help the White Sox offense if an opposing pitcher is even slightly less motivated to pitch inside.

I agree, I'm just saying Quentin is a poor example.

[mmmmmbeeer]

I don't think anyone is advocating a "bean ball war". Let's see what KW actually said:

 

"You can't allow other teams to pitch inside and knock your players down and not reciprocate," Williams said Thursday, mindful that Sox batters have been drilled 14 times, compared to their opponents getting nailed four times.

 

"You can't do it. You have to establish the inside part of the plate and move hitters off the plate to open it up more. If you don't do that and allow the other team to do it to your hitters, then you're losing at both ends."

 

Nowhere does KW advocate throwing a bean ball nor even hitting anyone. He mentions pitching inside.

 

 

 

If you don't believe hitters are more comfortable when they know the opposing pitcher will never move them off of the plate with an inside pitch, you must have never played baseball and haven't watched much baseball for too long either.

 

 

 

Again, your "bean ball argument" is a red herring. And now you contradict your previous statements by saying "Brushbacks? fine with me."

 

 

Just a hunch, but I'll bet you get most of your opinions from listening to Boers and Bernstein.

 

Anyway, the point is that you can't let the opposing batters get too comfortable in leaning out over the plate. Keeping them honest with a few pitches off the inside corner every now and then and making them move around a little bit is an effective tactic for any pitcher. And allowing the opposition to continually move your batters off the plate and actually drilling a good number of them while your pitchers fail to even establish the inside of the plate and make their hitters move a little is just bad baseball.

 

The one thing that bothers me about all this is why did it get to the point where the GM had to say it? The White Sox under Ozzie have never handled this well. Ozzie always would talk about retaliation publicly resulting in the league and the umpires scrutinizing the Sox pitchers too closely, putting them at a disadvantage. Sox hitters would get drilled, and then the first time A Sox pitcher would hit an opposing batter, it would be the Sox who would get the warning.

 

The best way to handle this is to say nothing, let your pitcher do what needs to be done, and if questioned afterward say that it was just an unfortunate pitch that got away.

 

 

Ozzie's demeanor on the field has changed quite a bit since his sensitivity training. I wonder if someone in a position of power sent him a message that if he doesn't cool it he'll be gone. He doesn't argue. He doesn't insist his pitchers protect his hitters. He doesn't talk near as much trash about the opposition or his own players for that matter as he did a couple years ago. I think it's very telling that this had to come from KW.

 

 

 

[Marky Mark]

Ozzie's demeanor on the field has changed quite a bit since his sensitivity training. I wonder if someone in a position of power sent him a message that if he doesn't cool it he'll be gone. He doesn't argue. He doesn't insist his pitchers protect his hitters. He doesn't talk near as much trash about the opposition or his own players for that matter as he did a couple years ago. I think it's very telling that this had to come from KW.

 

Just wait, its still early. The feisty Venezuelan in him can't be held back for long!

 

[The Ginger Kid]

I like what Bobby said after throwing behind Kinsler:

 

It was not intentional. Yeah, I wanted to go in and send a message, and I think that message was sent. Our guys have been hit a lot this series. With a one-run lead, I didn't want to put anyone on base. I just wanted to say, 'Hey, we can play that game, too.' Other than that, the important thing was getting him out after that pitch."

[BearSox]

^^^ Wait, so was it intentional or not?