ETA: YOUTH MOVEMENT?

[Balta1701]

Omogrosso would probably be a better choice to replace Broadway in the bullpen IMO. At least then maybe we'll come up with a guy who can pitch one useful inning here and there instead of a guy we only want to go to if the game is out of hand and we want to save the important members of our staff.

 

I don't like the idea BTW of replacing Contreras with something you know that for the most part isn't going to be any better. I'd rather keep running him out there with the hope he changes things up if we're not going to go outside the organization for either a young guy who profiles as a starter or a healthy veteran with a track record.

Contreras went to the pen in 2007 for a short break, and IIRC when he came back he was a fair amount better than when he left (can't check to make sure, B-R won't load damnit!)

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Well, it's happened

I know, and I'm sure you're right BTW and Richard will be the starter. I don't like it, but it's not like I enjoy watching Count throw batting practice either.

 

I guess it just sucks that we've got all these hitters in our system who are close but no starting pitchers. I made a prediction before the season that this was the year we could end up seeing the Ely, Cassel, Egbert types and for now I'm sticking to it. Please get a starter Kenny.

[fathom]

I guess it just sucks that we've got all these hitters in our system who are close but no starting pitchers. I made a prediction before the season that this was the year we could end up seeing the Ely, Cassel, Egbert types and for now I'm sticking to it. Please get a starter Kenny.

 

Unless you sign Byrd or Pedro, there's no reason to trade for a starting pitcher right now. It's not like it feels like we're one piece away from being the class of the AL Central. Give Richard a game or two, and then see where we stand at the end of May.

[scenario]

Don't count me in as someone who thinks Richard has no chance of being a MLB starting pitcher. I think he can be a solid #4/5 starter in the majors. Don't forget that LHP in our division, especially, is extremely valuable.

 

^^^^^^^^^

 

I'd start Richard. No hesitation.

 

[caulfield12]

Contreras went to the pen in 2007 for a short break, and IIRC when he came back he was a fair amount better than when he left (can't check to make sure, B-R won't load damnit!)

 

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/game...3&year=2007

 

It happened at the beginning of August when he was already 5-14. He pitched two times in relief, then pitched "decently" (lowered his ERA by about a point, right now he's 8+) for the remainder of that season.

[ThunderBolt]

^^^^^^^^^

 

I'd start Richard. No hesitation.

The guy started the futures game last year, made the olympic team, and then shut down the Rays in the playoffs. We're not talking about a chump entering the rotation, he's a kid with potential.

[T R U]

Ide like to see..

 

Dye

Konerko

Jenks

Thornton

Dotel

 

All traded before the deadline

 

We aren't going to be spending money in the offseason, legit spending that is, so by trying to trade these guys for good pieces we can use next season and beyond would benefit us not only for the future but being able to let us actually spend some money in the offseason on pieces to fill out what we need to reach the budget anyways.

Edited May 9, 2009 by T R U

[greg775]

de like to see..

 

Dye

Konerko

Jenks

Thornton

Dotel

 

All traded before the deadline

 

If you do that, you better get top notch quality, can't-miss prospects in return.

You better be SURE they are going to be stars, because nobody is going to trade good major league players off contending teams for those guys. We'll be getting prospects.

 

[lostfan]

I don't understand the point of this - look at our lineup, who's underachieving? Alexei, Fields, Quentin (average has plummeted lately). Those guys, now along with Getz, are the core of our "youth movement." Thome, Konerko, Dye, and AJ are part of the "old" core. The only one out of those who is underachieving right now is Thome. How does dumping everyone help?

[T R U]

If you do that, you better get top notch quality, can't-miss prospects in return.

You better be SURE they are going to be stars, because nobody is going to trade good major league players off contending teams for those guys. We'll be getting prospects.

 

I wouldn't go that far, I bet there would be a few teams who would trade a young MLB guy in a package for a Dye or Konerko and a chance at a World Series if they both continue to look like they are going to give you .300 30 100. And I know Konerko hasn't hit many HRs but if he keeps hitting like he is the track record is there anyways.

 

And who cares if all we get are prospects, as long as they are good ones. This team is only getting older and slower by each game and its not like we are going to shell out big money for a superstar anyways. The more good prospects we have, the better the chance of some of them panning out.

 

If we make those deals, we also clear a lot of salary and will be able to have a lot more room to fill out the roster through free agency. We would still have Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, MB, Floyd, Getz to go along with guys like Poreda, Beckham, Flowers, Viciedo, and are other young guys who look like they could contribute down the line. Add in what we get from those players being dealt and the salary relief I think that is exactly what we need.

 

My team for the rest of this season as currently as I can get it would be

 

1. 2B Getz

2. SS Ramirez

3. LF Quentin

4. DH Thome

5. 1B Betemit

6. C Pierzynski

7. 3B Fields

8. RF Nix

9. CF Anderson

 

OF Podsednik

OF Wise

IF/OF Lillibridge

3B/1B Phillips

C Miller

 

SP Buehrle

SP Floyd

SP Danks

SP Colon

SP Richard

 

MR Broadway

MR Carassco

MR Contreras

MR Whisler

MR Link

CL Linebrink

 

Not good, im aware of this. If we are going to play like trash anyways, whats the difference. Stop lying to the fans already, we can clearly see this team is not that good and needs to be remade. I think they would get more support if they actually made an effort to rebuild this thing than doing nothing.

 

If they are going to play Nix in RF, might as well see what hes got out there and see if thats going to be an option. As far as the MR goes, I am only going on what we could have now and not any other moves that could be made.

[The Ginger Kid]

I don't understand the point of this - look at our lineup, who's underachieving? Alexei, Fields, Quentin (average has plummeted lately). Those guys, now along with Getz, are the core of our "youth movement." Thome, Konerko, Dye, and AJ are part of the "old" core. The only one out of those who is underachieving right now is Thome. How does dumping everyone help?

this is a great point. if you want to see the sox add to their league-leading tally of being shutout, then bring up the kiddies. Besides, It's the second week of May and we're four games back - I'm not convinced this team can't compete if they can get on track. This division is up for grabs.

[T R U]

How does dumping everyone help?

 

Well Dye, Konerko, Jenks, Thornton, and Dotel doing good doesn't seem to be helping much right now either. Aside from keeping us near .500 and not completely in the cellar of MLB.

 

Making the future brighter for this team is why I would like to see this stuff happen. Its going to need to be done eventually here anyways.

[T R U]

this is a great point. if you want to see the sox add to their league-leading tally of being shutout, then bring up the kiddies. Besides, It's the second week of May and we're four games back - I'm not convinced this team can't compete if they can get on track. This division is up for grabs.

 

It doesn't really matter much to me if we lose 6-0 or 6-5, its a loss regardless. And im not saying we need to trade everyone and bring up a bunch of prospects now, sure we are 4 games back but its also between 4 teams and by your logic we really shouldn't count Cleveland out either. If it wasn't such a wide margin, ide be fine to let it play out.

 

The fact that its close is only bad for us. I know im not the only one who doesn't want to see this team win between 80-85 games and make the wrong moves while falling short anyways.

[Soxfest]

Sox to be shut out this much the first month is an absolute joke for a MLB team!

[caulfield12]

I wouldn't go that far, I bet there would be a few teams who would trade a young MLB guy in a package for a Dye or Konerko and a chance at a World Series if they both continue to look like they are going to give you .300 30 100. And I know Konerko hasn't hit many HRs but if he keeps hitting like he is the track record is there anyways.

 

And who cares if all we get are prospects, as long as they are good ones. This team is only getting older and slower by each game and its not like we are going to shell out big money for a superstar anyways. The more good prospects we have, the better the chance of some of them panning out.

 

If we make those deals, we also clear a lot of salary and will be able to have a lot more room to fill out the roster through free agency. We would still have Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, MB, Floyd, Getz to go along with guys like Poreda, Beckham, Flowers, Viciedo, and are other young guys who look like they could contribute down the line. Add in what we get from those players being dealt and the salary relief I think that is exactly what we need.

 

My team for the rest of this season as currently as I can get it would be

 

1. 2B Getz

2. SS Ramirez

3. LF Quentin

4. DH Thome

5. 1B Betemit

6. C Pierzynski

7. 3B Fields

8. RF Nix

9. CF Anderson

 

OF Podsednik

OF Wise

IF/OF Lillibridge

3B/1B Phillips

C Miller

 

SP Buehrle

SP Floyd

SP Danks

SP Colon

SP Richard

 

MR Broadway

MR Carassco

MR Contreras

MR Whisler

MR Link

CL Linebrink

 

Not good, im aware of this. If we are going to play like trash anyways, whats the difference. Stop lying to the fans already, we can clearly see this team is not that good and needs to be remade. I think they would get more support if they actually made an effort to rebuild this thing than doing nothing.

 

If they are going to play Nix in RF, might as well see what hes got out there and see if thats going to be an option. As far as the MR goes, I am only going on what we could have now and not any other moves that could be made.

 

 

Nix has a career minor league OPS of around 750 in the minors, where he languished for eight full seasons.

 

No way he can be a full-time corner OF. He has to stay on the infield. Is he a better option than Lillibridge? Sure, I can't argue that. But the fact he's NOT Lillibridge is the main thing he has going for him, and his defensive abilities. He "looks" like a player up at-bat at least. I'll give him that much.

 

Whisler probably won't pitch for us once this season, he's another version of Haeger/Tracey/Augustin Montero/Arnie Munoz/Mike Porzio/Josh Stewart. Yes, I'm aware of the Charlotte stats.

 

Our MOST valuable trading chip, as someone pointed out earlier this week, would be Bartolo Colon, if he stays healthy and gets his FB up above 90 MPH consistently for an entire game.

 

 

 

[beck72]

IMO, the ETA of the Sox youth movement has already passed. The sox have added Getz, Fields, richard, to go along with the 2008 players who had breakout years--Alexei, Danks, Floyd and Carlos. Yet it's the sox "youth core"-Alexei, Quentin, Floyd and Fields [the jury is still out with him, and I got slammed for saying he may not be a player to build around for the future, even when he got off to a good start]-that has been playing sub par this year. Even Danks has struggled as of late. Getz is performing better than expected, though, and Brian Anderson.

 

The Sox "Youth Movement" doesn't mean trading away players like Buerhle, Jenks, Dye, PK, etc, with the intention to try and make the playoffs in 3-4 years. Thome won't be re-signed and Dye may come back as the DH.

 

Being in the AL Central, means the sox will still have a chance to make the playoffs as they add a few young players to go along with vets like AJ, PK, et al. The Royals probably won't run away with the division this year. And no team looks like they have a dynasty in the making.

 

The future of the Sox rests in AA with the position players Beckham, Flowers, Viciedo, Allen and Shelby and how they develop. And if a few of the A ball starting pitchers, and Poreda can develop into top of the rotation guys.

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Some of the White Sox farmhands are going to be dissappointments, but at least they have a lot more that have a shot at being successful now. Rookies generally don't lead teams to championships so there will be some growing pains. I just wonder what slicing $40 million more off the payroll will do to the season ticket base, especially if this year is a tough one, and they don't have playoff ticket money in hand in advance. We'll probably find out next year. (And if that's the plan, watch for the White Sox to hold the line on ticket prices and state how they are doing it for their fans in a rough economy.)

Edited May 9, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Disco72]

It's been so long since we have seen a real "youth" movement (or a "the kids can play") that some people seem to forget how bad it will be for at least a couple of seasons. Young players rarely come up and dominate. They have growing pains, which we are seeing right now with some of the "young core" of the team. Not only that, but young players tend to be pretty inconsistent as they work to adjust to a new level....yet people think the big club now is too inconsistent!

 

Plus there is no guarantee that the Sox will only suck for a couple of seasons no matter how good we think the AA team is going to be as major leaguers. It's not easy to completely rebuild, and the MLB landscape is littered with failed attempt after failed attempt. The Sox are doing it the right way right now - mixing veterans with youth and staying competitive. This is true even though the first five weeks of the season have been extremely frustrating. Trading more than 1 or 2 of the veteran core (e.g., Dye, Konerko, Thome, Jenks, etc.) would be a huge mistake.

[elrockinMT]

At what point do pull the plug on this team and start a youth movement.

 

June 1st?

July 1st?

Please don't wait until 2010.

 

 

It's to early to panic. Plus as soon as this type of thing gets posted we start to hear about trading our stars who may actually still be performing very well. Tirfed old stuff. Calm down is my sugestion.

[Princess Dye]

It should have been done 2 years ago. Start to clean house KW. There are tons of teams who could use a Jermaine Dye or a Paul Konerko right now.

 

What contending teams could potentially use a RF or 1B

 

I hope it can bring us something but my guess would be Dotel gets shipped before anyone else.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Princess Dye

[Balta1701]

What contending teams could potentially use a RF or 1B

The Dodgers could use a power hitting OF...

 

At this point, we're still in the pretender/contender phase. The Yankees are off the pace, teams like Toronto, Kansas City, Detroit, Seattle, Texas, San Francisco, San Diego, Florida, Cinci, Milwaukee, St. Louis, all are still sitting above .500 and in races. Some of those teams are there because they're legit, some are there because a couple guys are on hot streaks. It really is too early to guess right now. Talk to me in a month and teams will starting to be saying "are we legit, what do we actually need" a lot more.

[caulfield12]

If there was ever a time to market Dye to the Dodgers (and he's a California kid), it would be now.

 

However, it won't happen for 4 reasons:

 

1) The biggest, KW won't give up on the season in May, and rightfully so

2) A lot of insiders say the Dodgers are actually happy to save $8 million (which they'd then have to pay Dye) and they still believe they will be in first in the NL West when Manny returns on July 3rd

3) There's no place for Dye when Manny returns

4) They still need to see what they can get out of Juan Pierre, who has that ridiculous contract

 

 

What contending teams could potentially use a RF or 1B

 

I hope it can bring us something but my guess would be Dotel gets shipped before anyone else.

 

Dotel's still a pretty expensive acquisition for many teams, and he's not up there in that "Juan Cruz" territory as a set-up guy. Trading Colon, when/if they do decide they can't legitimately compete this year, makes a lot more sense...in terms of being able to get back a real prospect from a team that's one 4/5 starter away from winning a division.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2009 by caulfield12

[RockRaines]

At what point do pull the plug on this team and start a youth movement.

 

June 1st?

July 1st?

Please don't wait until 2010.

When its more than a month and a week through the season for god sakes.

[knightni]

I don't want a youth movement like the Royals' last one.

They sucked for what, 15-20 years before appearing to have a good team this year.

The Royals had 3 or 4 youth movements; just like the Marlins.

 

Except, they couldn't win with their youth.

 

Damon, Dye, Beltran, Appier, Conine, Randa, Montgomery all got shipped off just as they were wanting more money and the team started winning.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If there was ever a time to market Dye to the Dodgers (and he's a California kid), it would be now.

 

However, it won't happen for 4 reasons:

 

1) The biggest, KW won't give up on the season in May, and rightfully so

2) A lot of insiders say the Dodgers are actually happy to save $8 million (which they'd then have to pay Dye) and they still believe they will be in first in the NL West when Manny returns on July 3rd

3) There's no place for Dye when Manny returns

4) They still need to see what they can get out of Juan Pierre, who has that ridiculous contract

 

 

What contending teams could potentially use a RF or 1B

 

I hope it can bring us something but my guess would be Dotel gets shipped before anyone else.

 

Dotel's still a pretty expensive acquisition for many teams, and he's not up there in that "Juan Cruz" territory as a set-up guy. Trading Colon, when/if they do decide they can't legitimately compete this year, makes a lot more sense...in terms of being able to get back a real prospect from a team that's one 4/5 starter away from winning a division.

I don't know what you mean by that. Cruz is 3 years younger at 30 than Dotel is, and he has a much more favorable contract, but it's really no contest who has been the better pitcher over his career, and that is Dotel.

 

Cruz: 31-31, 3.95 ERA, 309 G, 528.1 IP, 453 H, 232 ER, 54 HR, 273 BB, 545 K, 14 WP, 7-7 H/9, 0.9 HR/9, 4.7 BB/9, 9.3 K/9, 1.37 WHIP

Dotel: 44-36, 3.71 ERA, 511 G, 717.1 IP, 569 H, 296 ER, 92 HR, 319 BB, 877 K, 32 WP, 7.1 H/9, 1.2 HR/9, 4.0 BB/9, 11.0 K/9, 1.24 WHIP

 

And Dotel missed a bunch of time from 2005-2007 after recovering from surgery. If he's pitching those years, then Dotel completely blows Cruz out of the water. Dotel BTW has only spent parts of 2 seasons in the minor leagues after making his MLB debut, and that was during his recovery. OTOH, 2004 and 2009 (so far) are the only years where Cruz hasn't at least gone to the minors in a rehab stint.

 

I don't get the lack of overall respect for Octavio around here. Yes he has his moments, but the guy is about as good as they come as far as setup men go. I'm a big Juan Cruz fan, but to say Octavio isn't in Cruz's category (like he's worthy of having his own category or something) is absurd. This is Dotel's last year here in all likelihood, and trust me, we're all going to miss him once he's gone and we're going to some minor leaguer in the 7th and 8th innings when Linebrink and Thornton can't pitch.