Thats it, I'm sick and tired of this s***

[caulfield12]

The payroll was going down there anyway. Do you really think after they get rid of Thome, Contreras, Dye, Dotel and have to pay Viciedo $4.3 million less next year, that they are going to sign someone for big money? No way. They will indeed use the economy as an excuse for this year, but all the other teams in town have no problems filling their places when they give the people buying tickets something good to watch. Its like a guy opening a restaurant saying he's going to use old food because he's afraid no one will come to the restaurant. When no one comes, he lets everyone know how he was right. Its total BS. Its the defeatist attitude KW claimed he didn't have.

 

 

I'll ask you this question.

 

If you were KW going into this past offseason and were told to build for 2010 and that you couldn't add payroll, what would you have done differently?

 

Besides 2001 and 2007, the White Sox have fielded competitive teams. They have one of the better records in baseball since 1990, overall, you know all the statistics just like I do.

 

If anything, last year might have led everyone astray and into thinking we could continue to "reload" on the fly instead of rebuilding. For that to happen, almost everything would have to break right, and it certainly has gone about as much in the wrong direction as possible. When you go into a series HOPING to win one out of four (like when we go to Minnesota or Oakland, too), you're going to play in a manner that ends up in the losses we saw in Game 2 and Game 4. They were 75% beaten before they even took the field those games.

 

I'll ask you a second question...let's say we go 3-3 in the next six games (someone has to win, the Sox OR Twins, I THINK)...what would you do if you were in the poisition of KW and Brooks Boyer to keep fan interest alive for the second half of the season?

 

1) Lower ticket prices for individual seats?

2) Send a refund to season ticket holders (with a letter explaining that the payroll would have to fall even more next year)

3) More half price nights and promotions to boost attendance during week (maybe drinks specials like Two For Tuesday or Thirsty Thursdays)....half price nights on Mondays or Thursdays, etc.

4) Give a speech saying the hope was to compete this year in a winnable division but we now have to set our sights on 2010?

5) Bring up Beckham, Poreda and Viciedo in June?

6) Write a letter of apology to the season ticket holders and newspapers and admit your mistakes?

 

[MO2005]

And again...Everyone is acting like this is a shocker that the Sox are where they are. All offseason a few of us said that this team will suck and not compete. People bashed claiming we are not real Sox fans, but I will say one thing about that. Real fans are realistic. This offseason was garbage! Kenny didn't do jack this offseason except pick up guys he thought were going to come out of the gates hitting and pitching. The problem with that is that they are too inexperienced and YOUNG.

 

We have a selfish ballclub that I have been saying since 2007 needs to be broken up. We have a hitting coach who might as well not have a job if the hitters keep getting the blame. We have a manager who puts out a different lineup everyday and can't stay consistent with one.

 

I mean in all seriousness this thread should be changed to As expected...

[caulfield12]

Your only reason for making Jenks a starter would be to get him back in shape? Why do you care if he is ripped or not? If he can throw the ball effectively it doesnt matter if he is "in shape".

 

No, I didn't say only reason, I said ONE reason. Another reason is that we don't have anyone at the AA level of above who has his stuff and he also has a history as a starter with the Angels. Poreda is our only minor league starter who's not at least 2-3 seasons away.

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Tell me who you would start if Floyd continues to perform like this for the next 6 weeks?

 

It's not going to happen, of course, but starting Thornton or Jenks is more logical than Broadway, Marquez, Van Benschoten, Egbert, etc. If this season goes like it looks like, starting the likes of Omogrosso or Santeliz or the likes of Harrell or Ely makes more sense than using pitchers who aren't a part of the future of this ballclub. This team won't compete again until we produce at least one starter of our own or KW makes a trade like AJ for Nathan, Liriano and Bonser that replenishes the upper levels of the system.

 

Probably they will have to go to Carrasco and move Floyd to the bullpen. They need to do something to shake this thing up. Replacing Walker with Baines isn't going to do it, that's for sure.

 

 

What would you do if you were KW to fix the starting rotation between now and April, 2010....???

 

[caulfield12]

And again...Everyone is acting like this is a shocker that the Sox are where they are. All offseason a few of us said that this team will suck and not compete. People bashed claiming we are not real Sox fans, but I will say one thing about that. Real fans are realistic. This offseason was garbage! Kenny didn't do jack this offseason except pick up guys he thought were going to come out of the gates hitting and pitching. The problem with that is that they are too inexperienced and YOUNG.

 

We have a selfish ballclub that I have been saying since 2007 needs to be broken up. We have a hitting coach who might as well not have a job if the hitters keep getting the blame. We have a manager who puts out a different lineup everyday and can't stay consistent with one.

 

I mean in all seriousness this thread should be changed to As expected...

 

 

I think everyone EXPECTED it, about 70-80% of posters on Sox message boards.

 

Now whether they were openly saying KW was making mistakes, some were quiet and waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

Obviously, most of the media thought they'd be 3rd or 4th...some in last place. Baseball Prospectus called for 72-90, they might be right on the Sox two out of three seasons. Just horribly off last year.

 

Everyone had a sense the 2005 season was about to evaporate in terms of our roster (maybe only Buerhle, Paulie and AJ will survive this year...possibly Jenks)....and most were excited about the infusion of talent from the Birmingham squad.

 

I'll be honest, I enjoy listening to the Barons games a lot more than watching the major league team lose game after game in similarly mind-numbing fashion. Winning is fun, losing sucks and sometimes makes you question why you even passionately follow sports or White Sox baseball, in particular.

 

It would be one thing to watch a young/enthusiastic team that was making youthful mistakes...but this is largely a veteran bunch, and it feels like they're playing out the string and we still have 4 1/2 months to go. No part of our ballclub is alive. At least in CLE, they can hope that their offense can get them back into the race. We don't have any one aspect of this team that's working well right now, not even the bullpen this past series.

 

The only question remaining for everyone is what to do about it...to that, there are no easy answers.

Edited May 19, 2009 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

And again...Everyone is acting like this is a shocker that the Sox are where they are. All offseason a few of us said that this team will suck and not compete. People bashed claiming we are not real Sox fans, but I will say one thing about that. Real fans are realistic. This offseason was garbage! Kenny didn't do jack this offseason except pick up guys he thought were going to come out of the gates hitting and pitching. The problem with that is that they are too inexperienced and YOUNG.

ANd you know what? Everyone knew in 2005 that the Sox were going to stink. Everyone knew in 2007 the Sox were going to stink. Everyone knew in 2008 the Sox were going to stink.

[Dick Allen]

Some reasons the Sox stink right now are Ramirez and Quentin and Floyd and Danks. I'm not counting Contreras because he wasn't even supposed to be around for a couple more months. One could expect some sort of regression out of each, but the regression has been so extreme. The White Sox current team was set up for them not to be a team that could possibly win 100 games, but it was constructed to compete for a weak division while guarding the teams bank account. That is where the problem lies. Quentin, Ramirez, Danks and Floyd all came up aces last season. The odds of it happening again for all of them and for guys like Lillibridge, and Marquez and Nix are slimmer than Ramirez. That said, they'll probably sweep the Twins and score about 30 runs in the 3 game series.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

No, I didn't say only reason, I said ONE reason. Another reason is that we don't have anyone at the AA level of above who has his stuff and he also has a history as a starter with the Angels. Poreda is our only minor league starter who's not at least 2-3 seasons away.

 

Um he also has a history of injuries when he used to start, he has a metal rod in his elbow, he has established himself as an upper-echelon closer....so ya, it would be asinine to try and make him a starter again at this point in his career. The fact that we are think on close to ML ready starting pitchers in the minors, should not be a reason to be making ridiculous decisions like that.

 

[Kyyle23]

Um he also has a history of injuries when he used to start, he has a metal rod in his elbow, he has established himself as an upper-echelon closer....so ya, it would be asinine to try and make him a starter again at this point in his career. The fact that we are think on close to ML ready starting pitchers in the minors, should not be a reason to be making ridiculous decisions like that.

 

 

eh? mistype?

[ChiSox_Sonix]

eh? mistype?

 

 

Heh.

 

The fact that we are "THIN" is what I meant

[djcollie03]

It's definitely no fun watching this team struggle - doesn't seem like there's much, if any, pep to the players right now. The back of the line up is terrible, pitching hasn't been nearly up to par and injuries are not helping the situation. That said, I'm not really feeling all that different than I did last year at this time - anyone remember the Blowup doll incident in Toronto? We were just as bad coming out of that series last year. I feel like all of talk radio is giving up, the message boards are down, people ready to dismantle the team - it's deja vu. I certainly wouldn't throw in the towel yet. It's way too early and the AL Central is WEAK. I thought coming out of spring training that most of the division was going to hover right around .500 this season. It's the team or teams that can string together a week or two of wins that will take this thing. I'd be shocked if any team in the Central hits 90 wins. While we might not look good now, you never know what could happen.

[WCSox]

In all seriousness though, this team is lacking the key ingredient to any successful season a White Sox team has had over the past few years, and that is pitching. I know Danks has been underachieving, and im still hoping Floyd can turn it around and figure some things out, and Richard looked solid yesterday too (by the way that just proves how bad Ozzie is for running Contreras out there for almost 25% of the season to get shelled while Richard continually pitched well in long relief) , but clearly we don't have what it takes to make a run at this division. I don't see any reason why we can't bring these young guys (Beckham/Poreda) up and let them see if they can contribute now. If you look back at the past decade, most of the superstars playing right now came up at about the age these guys are at right now(with the exception of Jerry Owens). Are you guys going to tell me Beckham doesn't contribute more to our squad than Lillibridge? I say get the expermient started now, stick Ramirez in center to see if he can play, Becks at short, and lets get Poreda some starts.

 

The Sox are lacking several key ingredients right now, with the most important one being pitching.

 

I agree with much of what you're saying, but would rather not see Beckham and Poreda until the rosters expand later in the season. No need to push those guys right now.

 

[Molto]

Even if Beckham is the real deal and ready to play now, and I don't doubt it from the way he looked during spring training, it's too too risky to bring him up now. Make sure that once he comes up, he's up for good. Let him go through some ups and downs at the minor league level before he experiences it on the big stage.

 

With regards to Poreda ... I wouldn't mind him starting, but that's just because I'd rather him struggle now and show he's not a major league starter than next season when there are certain expectations that he'll never live up to.

[NorthSideSox72]

Even if Beckham is the real deal and ready to play now, and I don't doubt it from the way he looked during spring training, it's too too risky to bring him up now. Make sure that once he comes up, he's up for good. Let him go through some ups and downs at the minor league level before he experiences it on the big stage.

 

With regards to Poreda ... I wouldn't mind him starting, but that's just because I'd rather him struggle now and show he's not a major league starter than next season when there are certain expectations that he'll never live up to.

Good to see you posting in the baseball threads again.

 

[caulfield12]

Even if Beckham is the real deal and ready to play now, and I don't doubt it from the way he looked during spring training, it's too too risky to bring him up now. Make sure that once he comes up, he's up for good. Let him go through some ups and downs at the minor league level before he experiences it on the big stage.

 

With regards to Poreda ... I wouldn't mind him starting, but that's just because I'd rather him struggle now and show he's not a major league starter than next season when there are certain expectations that he'll never live up to.

 

 

Kip Wells came up and had relative success in 1999 and it put a lot of pressure on him to be the savior of the rotation in 2000...so it goes both ways.

 

Thankfully, we had Sirotka, Baldwin, Eldred, Parque and Garland to fill in the breach, as well as a young Mark Buehrle.

 

Beckham's OPS is around 830. It's not like he has been destroying the ball down there....and, of course, he is just coming back from an abdominal injury. Not to mention the fact that he's had his struggles defensively, just like Viciedo.

 

That Barons team needs to win a championship together and bring their enthusiasm and winning attitude/confidence to the big leagues...instead of being split up and brought to Charlotte or promoted to the Sox. We don't need them to be infected by the current malaise that is Charlotte/Chicago.

[caulfield12]

Um he also has a history of injuries when he used to start, he has a metal rod in his elbow, he has established himself as an upper-echelon closer....so ya, it would be asinine to try and make him a starter again at this point in his career. The fact that we are think on close to ML ready starting pitchers in the minors, should not be a reason to be making ridiculous decisions like that.

 

 

Would love to hear your ideas about where we're going to get two front-line starters between now and the start of the 2010 season?

 

Contreras and Colon will be gone...Danks is looking (for now) like his late 2007 version before they shut him down and Floyd is abysmal.

 

Let's say Floyd becomes a serviceable 5 starter and Danks a 3 starter and Buehrle doesn't ever show signs of wear and tear or go down with injury for the first time in his career...we still have to find a 1-2 starter and a 4. Richard or Poreda might be the 4. Might.

 

The 4 can be found, but the 1-2 guy that Danks was the second half and Floyd for much of the first half...well, they just don't grow on trees.

[Molto]

Kip Wells came up and had relative success in 1999 and it put a lot of pressure on him to be the savior of the rotation in 2000...so it goes both ways.

 

Thankfully, we had Sirotka, Baldwin, Eldred, Parque and Garland to fill in the breach, as well as a young Mark Buehrle.

 

Beckham's OPS is around 830. It's not like he has been destroying the ball down there....and, of course, he is just coming back from an abdominal injury. Not to mention the fact that he's had his struggles defensively, just like Viciedo.

 

That Barons team needs to win a championship together and bring their enthusiasm and winning attitude/confidence to the big leagues...instead of being split up and brought to Charlotte or promoted to the Sox. We don't need them to be infected by the current malaise that is Charlotte/Chicago.

 

Not sure I understand your first part. I don't much care for Poreda. He'll be a reliever at best, and that's assuming he doesn't lose 5mph in the next two years, which I suspect he will. So I'd rather him come up and show he can't do it sooner rather than later, so there is time to look for other options.

 

As for Beckham, I'm talking mentally. He appears mature enough that he'll be able to handle coming up sooner, but there is no point to it.

[NorthSideSox72]

Not sure I understand your first part. I don't much care for Poreda. He'll be a reliever at best, and that's assuming he doesn't lose 5mph in the next two years, which I suspect he will. So I'd rather him come up and show he can't do it sooner rather than later, so there is time to look for other options.

 

As for Beckham, I'm talking mentally. He appears mature enough that he'll be able to handle coming up sooner, but there is no point to it.

What makes you think he loses 5 clicks int he next two years?

 

[Chisoxfn]

Would love to hear your ideas about where we're going to get two front-line starters between now and the start of the 2010 season?

 

Contreras and Colon will be gone...Danks is looking (for now) like his late 2007 version before they shut him down and Floyd is abysmal.

 

Let's say Floyd becomes a serviceable 5 starter and Danks a 3 starter and Buehrle doesn't ever show signs of wear and tear or go down with injury for the first time in his career...we still have to find a 1-2 starter and a 4. Richard or Poreda might be the 4. Might.

 

The 4 can be found, but the 1-2 guy that Danks was the second half and Floyd for much of the first half...well, they just don't grow on trees.

Why the heck do they need two front of the rotation starters? Danks and Floyd are the guys, like it or not, the Sox have to hope they pan out cause if not, than the whole rotation is a mess. Buehrle fits as well, so your talking about 2 spots and no, moving Jenks or Thornton isn't an option. Jenks makes way too much and all your doing is risking him losing his value or getting hurt and Thornton doesn't have the skill-set to start.

 

Find one starter via FA, hope you can acquire another starter and than slowly get Hudson added to the mix, but the reality is you don't sit around and wait casue the Sox don't have any starting pitching prospect that you can just pencil into the rotation for the next 5 years.

[caulfield12]

Why the heck do they need two front of the rotation starters? Danks and Floyd are the guys, like it or not, the Sox have to hope they pan out cause if not, than the whole rotation is a mess. Buehrle fits as well, so your talking about 2 spots and no, moving Jenks or Thornton isn't an option. Jenks makes way too much and all your doing is risking him losing his value or getting hurt and Thornton doesn't have the skill-set to start.

 

Find one starter via FA, hope you can acquire another starter and than slowly get Hudson added to the mix, but the reality is you don't sit around and wait casue the Sox don't have any starting pitching prospect that you can just pencil into the rotation for the next 5 years.

 

 

Assuming Danks is as good as he was last year, or almost, that's workable.

 

Maybe he's just going through the same type of inconsistency that Cliff Lee did...I don't know.

 

I'm not sure if I were the White Sox I would pencil in at 2.75 - 3.25 ERA for the rest of the season, either.

 

The whole finding a starter through FA thing hasn't happened in Chicago for 8 years now. It all depends on how dire the situation gets, and perhaps a little bit the Cubs, too (if they won the World Series). Maybe the media will get tired of the Sox "White Flag" history and the Blackhawks can also take some of the focus away for now. Even the most optimistic front office member is already cringing thinking of marketing this team to season ticket holders without 1-2 serious additions to the team for next season.

 

Personally, I would hate if KW did something dramatic (like Albert Belle) just to raise attendance but with no rhyme or reason about fitting this into the long-term plans, but he's kind of between a rock and a hard place. If we were in the AL East, it would be a lot more cut-and-dried and perhaps the fans would be more understanding as well. But it's hard to get much sympathy for the product on the field when ticket prices were already increased 11%.

Edited May 19, 2009 by caulfield12

[GreatScott82]

Would love to hear your ideas about where we're going to get two front-line starters between now and the start of the 2010 season?

 

Contreras and Colon will be gone...Danks is looking (for now) like his late 2007 version before they shut him down and Floyd is abysmal.

 

Let's say Floyd becomes a serviceable 5 starter and Danks a 3 starter and Buehrle doesn't ever show signs of wear and tear or go down with injury for the first time in his career...we still have to find a 1-2 starter and a 4. Richard or Poreda might be the 4. Might.

 

Kenny needs to make another investment in a starting pitcher. I would love Lackey or Bedard to fill that #2 slot via free agency. Buerhle, Lackey, Danks, Richard, Floyd would definitley work. Poreda could definitley come in and be a solid setup man next year, especially if Jenks is traded.

[caulfield12]

Not sure I understand your first part. I don't much care for Poreda. He'll be a reliever at best, and that's assuming he doesn't lose 5mph in the next two years, which I suspect he will. So I'd rather him come up and show he can't do it sooner rather than later, so there is time to look for other options.

 

As for Beckham, I'm talking mentally. He appears mature enough that he'll be able to handle coming up sooner, but there is no point to it.

 

 

Kip Wells came up and pitched "well" under no pressure and then quickly collapsed when expectations were placed on him in 2000.

 

We've had pitchers like Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins and Nick Masset lose 5 MPH before they ever made it to Chicago based on false hype, but Poreda has a legit fastball for now. Are you saying that because you think his delivery is not as repeatable or as smooth as Matt Thornton's? Conjecture? Simply the fact that the White Sox pitchers with the least hype (Buehrle and Fogg) ended up having much better results than many "top" prospects?

 

The whole reason for him to fail is because of his secondary pitches at this moment in time? Just curious how many times you have watched him.

 

 

[Molto]

What makes you think he loses 5 clicks int he next two years?

 

He has a forced fastball, in my opinion. I don't think his arm will take much major league mileage. Of course, it's all moot if he's changed since spring training, but I doubt it.

[kapkomet]

He has a forced fastball, in my opinion. I don't think his arm will take much major league mileage. Of course, it's all moot if he's changed since spring training, but I doubt it.

If that's true, he's trade bait. This summer.

 

[Molto]

Kip Wells came up and pitched "well" under no pressure and then quickly collapsed when expectations were placed on him in 2000.

 

We've had pitchers like Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins and Nick Masset lose 5 MPH before they ever made it to Chicago based on false hype, but Poreda has a legit fastball for now. Are you saying that because you think his delivery is not as repeatable or as smooth as Matt Thornton's? Conjecture? Simply the fact that the White Sox pitchers with the least hype (Buehrle and Fogg) ended up having much better results than many "top" prospects?

 

The whole reason for him to fail is because of his secondary pitches at this moment in time? Just curious how many times you have watched him.

 

I'm not sure why you are talking about Wells, unless you are comparing him to Beckham. I don't think much of Poreda, therefore I don't think he'll do much at the major league level, so I'd rather that become a fact sooner rather than later. Unless he's future trade bait. Then keep him down.

[Molto]

Kip Wells came up and pitched "well" under no pressure and then quickly collapsed when expectations were placed on him in 2000.

 

We've had pitchers like Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins and Nick Masset lose 5 MPH before they ever made it to Chicago based on false hype, but Poreda has a legit fastball for now. Are you saying that because you think his delivery is not as repeatable or as smooth as Matt Thornton's? Conjecture? Simply the fact that the White Sox pitchers with the least hype (Buehrle and Fogg) ended up having much better results than many "top" prospects?

 

The whole reason for him to fail is because of his secondary pitches at this moment in time? Just curious how many times you have watched him.

 

I've watched him a few times, which is enough for me to gauge a pitchers delivery. Not having a secondary pitch doesn't help, of course.