Thats it, I'm sick and tired of this s***

[caulfield12]

I'm not sure why you are talking about Wells, unless you are comparing him to Beckham. I don't think much of Poreda, therefore I don't think he'll do much at the major league level, so I'd rather that become a fact sooner rather than later. Unless he's future trade bait. Then keeping him down.

 

 

Nope, comparing Poreda to Wells, although I think the expectations for Kip were even higher, especially at that time period where even the likes of Snyder and Parque looked really good compared to 1998.

 

I guess your thinking is that he is a sure-fire bust...well, only KW knows if that's the consensus viewpoint of the rest of the organization, but we certainly have to find another GM that believes the opposite of you with just as much conviction.

 

With everything being so modernized, I'm sure they have diagnostic computerized simulation programs that can determine exactly the torque on the elbow and shoulder that any given motion produces. One would think they could smooth or straighten out his mechanics and maintain his velocity, unless that velocity resulted from performance-enhancing drugs, which we have no reason to believe.

Edited May 19, 2009 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

I've watched him a few times, which is enough for me to gauge a pitchers delivery. Not having a secondary pitch doesn't help, of course.

 

 

Did you also have the same feeling about Gio Gonzalez or Faustino DeLosSantos?

 

Second, what pitcher have you seen in our system that you DO like their mechanics/delivery? Have you seen any of the Kannapolis starters in person or on t.v.?

 

 

[Molto]

Nope, comparing Poreda to Wells, although I think the expectations for Kip were even higher, especially at that time period where even the likes of Snyder and Parque looked really good compared to 1998.

 

I guess your thinking is that he is a sure-fire bust...well, only KW knows if that's the consensus viewpoint of the rest of the organization, but we certainly have to find another GM that believes the opposite of you with just as much conviction.

 

With everything being so modernized, I'm sure they have diagnostic computerized simulation programs that can determine exactly the torque on the elbow and shoulder that any given motion produces. One would think they could smooth or straighten out his mechanics and maintain his velocity, unless that velocity resulted from performance-enhancing drugs, which we have no reason to believe.

 

There was definitely more expectations for Wells. I don't like Poreda for his mechanics, others don't like him because he has only one pitch. In Wells case, he was right physically and had good stuff. Mentally was his issue, which a lot of the times you never know until they hit the majors.

[RockRaines]

I've watched him a few times, which is enough for me to gauge a pitchers delivery. Not having a secondary pitch doesn't help, of course.

I think he is a pen guy as well, I dont see how he can have a repeatable plus breaking ball with that delivery. I think he become a sinker/slider guy out of the pen.

[Molto]

Did you also have the same feeling about Gio Gonzalez or Faustino DeLosSantos?

 

Second, what pitcher have you seen in our system that you DO like their mechanics/delivery? Have you seen any of the Kannapolis starters in person or on t.v.?

 

Didn't care for Gonzalez, can't say I've ever seen De Los Santos, so I'd be lying if I say I did.

 

I saw Poreda pitch on TV. Can't think of anyone in our system (at least by name) that I was fine with. I think it's easier to get a feeling for a pitcher rather than a hitter. You can watch a hitter bat an entire game and a good game could very well hide some flaws. But pitching, at least for me, is easier to pick apart in a smaller sample.

[Molto]

Did you also have the same feeling about Gio Gonzalez or Faustino DeLosSantos?

 

Second, what pitcher have you seen in our system that you DO like their mechanics/delivery? Have you seen any of the Kannapolis starters in person or on t.v.?

 

Two guys I was pretty loud about when it came to their future health when they first broke the bigs, and a few can back me on this, were Wood and Liriano.

[caulfield12]

Didn't care for Gonzalez, can't say I've ever seen De Los Santos, so I'd be lying if I say I did.

 

I saw Poreda pitch on TV. Can't think of anyone in our system (at least by name) that I was fine with. I think it's easier to get a feeling for a pitcher rather than a hitter. You can watch a hitter bat an entire game and a good game could very well hide some flaws. But pitching, at least for me, is easier to pick apart in a smaller sample.

 

 

And you had the same impressions about Brandon McCarthy's erratic/herky-jerky delivery in 2003-2005 I'm assuming?

 

As far as Liriano, I'm not sure it's so much his delivery as it is the torque from the slider, which he's stopped throwing so much...with pretty pedestrian results over the last two years. I guess they kind of go together.

 

Danks or Johan Santana or Buehrle look a lot more natural on their changeups than Liriano or Poreda, that's for sure. It's also going to be the single biggest indicator whether Clayton Richard can go from merely a FB pitcher to a 2 or 3 pitch repertoire pitcher on a consistent basis as a starter.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2009 by caulfield12

[Molto]

I think he is a pen guy as well, I dont see how he can have a repeatable plus breaking ball with that delivery. I think he become a sinker/slider guy out of the pen.

 

Yeah, I think there is a possibility for him to be a fastball/slider guy out of the pen. Unfortunately though, relievers just naturally don't have long shelf lives, although if things keep going as they've been, we'll relievers whose specialty is to come in and throwing just a single pitch a game.

[Molto]

And you had the same impressions about Brandon McCarthy's erratic/herky-jerky delivery in 2003-2005 I'm assuming?

 

After seeing Danks, I was VERY happy with that trade. McCarthy's delivery is herky-jerky, as you say, but I wouldn't say I had the same impressions with him.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Would love to hear your ideas about where we're going to get two front-line starters between now and the start of the 2010 season?

 

Contreras and Colon will be gone...Danks is looking (for now) like his late 2007 version before they shut him down and Floyd is abysmal.

 

Let's say Floyd becomes a serviceable 5 starter and Danks a 3 starter and Buehrle doesn't ever show signs of wear and tear or go down with injury for the first time in his career...we still have to find a 1-2 starter and a 4. Richard or Poreda might be the 4. Might.

 

The 4 can be found, but the 1-2 guy that Danks was the second half and Floyd for much of the first half...well, they just don't grow on trees.

 

This is comical post.

 

First off, why do we need to sign 2 "front-line starters"? Danks, MB and Floyd are being counted on to anchor our rotation for the next few years. Secondly, sine you do feel we need "front-line starters" (your words), I guess you're insinuating Bobby Jenks would be one, since that was who my comment was about. And if you are, that's just laughable.

 

Danks has had 7 starts this year. S E V E N. In 4 of those starts, he has allowed 0 or 1 runs. In the other 3 he has been bad. Yet, you are already comparing him to John Danks version 2007. WOW.

 

Then, despite Floyd's success last year, his pure stuff and what we know his potential is, you are already penciling him in as a serviceable number 5 starter if we're lucky. WOW.

 

Then, you mention yourself that 1-2 starters don't grow on trees, but you ask me where we are going to be finding TWO of them before next year. Really?

 

Really?

Edited May 19, 2009 by ChiSox_Sonix

[Chisoxfn]

Nope, comparing Poreda to Wells, although I think the expectations for Kip were even higher, especially at that time period where even the likes of Snyder and Parque looked really good compared to 1998.

 

I guess your thinking is that he is a sure-fire bust...well, only KW knows if that's the consensus viewpoint of the rest of the organization, but we certainly have to find another GM that believes the opposite of you with just as much conviction.

 

With everything being so modernized, I'm sure they have diagnostic computerized simulation programs that can determine exactly the torque on the elbow and shoulder that any given motion produces. One would think they could smooth or straighten out his mechanics and maintain his velocity, unless that velocity resulted from performance-enhancing drugs, which we have no reason to believe.

Kip was a much much better prospect than Poreda. He had a nice fastball and a big time curve ball. Poreda has a very poor delivery but it works and the biggest thing is the sinking action he gets on his fastball. Without the secondary stuff people are setting themselves up for dissapointment expecting much anything out of him as a starter.

[Chisoxfn]

Nope, comparing Poreda to Wells, although I think the expectations for Kip were even higher, especially at that time period where even the likes of Snyder and Parque looked really good compared to 1998.

 

I guess your thinking is that he is a sure-fire bust...well, only KW knows if that's the consensus viewpoint of the rest of the organization, but we certainly have to find another GM that believes the opposite of you with just as much conviction.

 

With everything being so modernized, I'm sure they have diagnostic computerized simulation programs that can determine exactly the torque on the elbow and shoulder that any given motion produces. One would think they could smooth or straighten out his mechanics and maintain his velocity, unless that velocity resulted from performance-enhancing drugs, which we have no reason to believe.

Oh and its not that easy to change someones delivery, not at all. Just a minor tweak is very difficult which is why the best thing most pitching coaches can do is play the mental game. Very few make very serious adjustments and if there were computer programs out there, I think we'd see arm injuries come to a shrieking halt.

[Chisoxfn]

There was definitely more expectations for Wells. I don't like Poreda for his mechanics, others don't like him because he has only one pitch. In Wells case, he was right physically and had good stuff. Mentally was his issue, which a lot of the times you never know until they hit the majors.

Cooper would have been a great fit for Wells.

[caulfield12]

This is comical post.

 

First off, why do we need to sign 2 "front-line starters"? Danks, MB and Floyd are being counted on to anchor our rotation for the next few years. Secondly, sine you do feel we need "front-line starters" (your words), I guess you're insinuating Bobby Jenks would be one, since that was who my comment was about. And if you are, that's just laughable.

 

Danks has had 7 starts this year. S E V E N. In 4 of those starts, he has allowed 0 or 1 runs. In the other 3 he has been bad. Yet, you are already comparing him to John Danks version 2007. WOW.

 

Then, despite Floyd's success last year, his pure stuff and what we know his potential is, you are already penciling him in as a serviceable number 5 starter if we're lucky. WOW.

 

Then, you mention yourself that 1-2 starters don't grow on trees, but you ask me where we are going to be finding TWO of them before next year. Really?

 

Really?

 

I'm waiting to hear where we're going to find two pitchers for 2010. Since even Cliff Lee had three really "average" seasons in his career...and at least half the posters here believe Poreda's ultimate destination is the bullpen.

 

Can we be certain that Danks is a #1/2 starter based on one season and the Blackout Game? No more than we can assume the Quentin will be in the Top 10 in the MVP voting or that Alexei Ramirez will hit 20 homers over the remainder of the season. Even if that did happen, it wouldn't necessarily prove anything if they were so far out of the race that all those statistics were put up in stress-free games.

 

I'm just trying to think outside of the box. I'm sure KW would be welcome to hear any ideas you have...and I said it wouldn't happen anyway, because he's already four years into his contract.

 

I bet nobody here thought they'd see Scott Podsednik in RF, Jayson Nix in CF/LF/RF, SS and 3B (when he had no very little experience in the minors at any of those positions)...Brent Lillibridge in CF, etc.

 

It's not as if I said Dayan Viciedo should go back to pitching....

 

As far as Gavin Floyd goes, there's been hundreds of pitchers who had his stuff that didn't even make it to the major leagues. Pitching is 90% mental, as referenced by the example of Kip Wells in one of these threads. We read for weeks and weeks how his peripherals and BABIP were "lucky" and how his success last year wasn't sustainable. Just like we heard how it would be crazy to go after Edwin Jackson because he would always be an example of hype over performance (like Bonderman). But Gavin Floyd being counted on as a reliable #3 starter for 2010? Really?

Edited May 19, 2009 by caulfield12

[ThunderBolt]

Two guys I was pretty loud about when it came to their future health when they first broke the bigs, and a few can back me on this, were Wood and Liriano.

So you dislike Poreda, because his mechanics remind you of that of both Liriano and Wood, two pitcher who have/had demonstrated that they were fantastic talents at the major league level, who both pitched their teams into playoff, and went down with an injury for a variety of reasons, one of which was being horribly overworked? I’ll take some Wood-like years from Poreda.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[RockRaines]

So you dislike Poreda, because his mechanics remind you of that of both Liriano and Wood, two pitcher who have/had demonstrated that they were fantastic talents at the major league level, who both pitched their teams into playoff, and went down with an injury for a variety of reasons, one of which was being horribly overworked? I’ll take some Wood-like years from Poreda.

I didnt see him make that correlation at all. Both of those guys had WAYYYYY better stuff than Poreda does. Personally I was hoping we'd trade Poreda this season if we were in contention for that last piece.

[nickofypres]

Linebrink is on record saying that he doesn't know if his shoulder will ever be 100% again and is owed $10.5 million over the next two years. Dotel will be 36 next season. The production of those two has nowhere to go but down, and Kenny would be crazy to go out of his way to keep either of them around next year. (Unfortunately, Linebrink's contract and NTC will make him difficult to deal this year.)

 

Since Kenny wasn't serious about this season, I doubt that he's going to make a 2008-like push next season. It's more likely that he deals Dye and Dotel at the break and lets guys like Beckham and Poreda develop in the bigs in 2010. And as much as I hate to watch bad baseball, it's the right thing to do. This current lineup isn't going to win in October and the Sox are going to have to suffer through another 1999-esque "The Kids Can Play" season or two while the current crop in AA sinks or swims in the majors.

 

ahhhh, I must of missed that

[ThunderBolt]

I didnt see him make that correlation at all. Both of those guys had WAYYYYY better stuff than Poreda does. Personally I was hoping we'd trade Poreda this season if we were in contention for that last piece.

Poreda is not on the same plane as both those guys, but Molto seemed to find damning evidence in that these mechanically flawed pitcher, both pitched spectacularly well before they got hurt. While injuries are certainly nothing to be shrugged over, I’d be more then pleased to see Poreda produce similar production even under a risk of injury that I don’t find inevitable. We should at least give him the benefit of a major league appearance before being bashing him on a message board.

[qwerty]

Poreda is not on the same plane as both those guys, but Molto seemed to find damning evidence in that these mechanically flawed pitcher, both pitched spectacularly well before they got hurt. While injuries are certainly nothing to be shrugged over, I’d be more then pleased to see Poreda produce similar production even under a risk of injury that I don’t find inevitable. We should at least give him the benefit of a major league appearance before being bashing him on a message board.

 

He never bashed him, simply stated his opinion. Huge difference.

 

Also, people have suspected liriano was very susceptible to injury since he was just a 17 year old in the rookie league, it was far from a secret.

[Molto]

So you dislike Poreda, because his mechanics remind you of that of both Liriano and Wood, two pitcher who have/had demonstrated that they were fantastic talents at the major league level, who both pitched their teams into playoff, and went down with an injury for a variety of reasons, one of which was being horribly overworked? I’ll take some Wood-like years from Poreda.

 

Reading can be fun.

 

I never said Poreda reminding me of Liriano and Wood. caufield was asking me about guys I've seen pitch who I wasn't fond of mechanically. Liriano and Wood were two guys, not two guys who remind me of Poreda.

[Chisoxfn]

Reading can be fun.

 

I never said Poreda reminding me of Liriano and Wood. caufield was asking me about guys I've seen pitch who I wasn't fond of mechanically. Liriano and Wood were two guys, not two guys who remind me of Poreda.

And I will also agree that Mario has made those comments and is very consistent about things. Mario, its good having you hear, you might be one of the few that can keep my dumbass blow thing up comments in check too, haha.