Thats it, I'm sick and tired of this s***

[OilCan]

My predictions:

1) Jenks will be traded for our future CF.

2) Dye will be traded for pitching prospects

3) Thome will be traded for a couple cheap prospects

4) Dotel will be traded for a decent prospect

 

Blow it up Kenny. . .

 

It pisses me off that we couldn't get this guy, instead we had to draft Lance Broadway...

[justBLAZE]

Truth of the matter is we can't just blow up this team and call up the whole AA and have them play.

 

And even if we start a FIRE-SALE how do we know received prospects are MLB ready?

 

In that case we can just unload a lot of money have a s*** TEAM finish this season, and get ready for HUGE OFFSEASON pretty much building this from scratch, has Kenny ever chosen to go follow that route?

[OilCan]

Truth of the matter is we can't just blow up this team and call up the whole AA and have them play.

 

And even if we start a FIRE-SALE how do we know received prospects are MLB ready?

 

In that case we can just unload a lot of money have a s*** TEAM finish this season, and get ready for HUGE OFFSEASON pretty much building this from scratch, has Kenny ever chosen to go follow that route?

 

Well, if history has told us anything in the last two years.....if KW couldn't buy a CF, what makes anyone think he could buy any good/great FA?

KW seems to overpay middle relievers and unknown quantities based of potential (Ramirez, Viciendo), and is dearly paying for piss-poor drafts before 2008's.

 

He did mortgage the minors for the 2005 trophy...fine.

Now fix this, KW. It's been 4 years. And counting...

[caulfield12]

I really want a legit leadoff as well, but really?

 

 

The other problem with trading for Morales is we're back to overloading with 1B/DH types.

 

We still have to find places for Viciedo, Brandon Allen and Tyler Flowers (if he can't catch, they will want his bat in the line-up somewhere). If we want to go in the direction of speed/athleticism, maybe Shelby factors in as well at DH since his defense isn't up to par with Jordan Danks.

 

It all depends on what they would do with the roughly $15-20 million they would save by dealing Konerko.

 

If they invested it in the draft, signing international FA's or the starting rotation, it would be fine. Certainly carving away all the pieces from the 2005 team won't be popular moves. We don't even know how happy Buehrle would be hanging around long-term for 2-3 years of rebuilding, or if he is serious about retiring roughly 2-3 seasons from now.

[caulfield12]

Well, if history has told us anything in the last two years.....if KW couldn't buy a CF, what makes anyone think he could buy any good/great FA?

KW seems to overpay middle relievers and unknown quantities based of potential (Ramirez, Viciendo), and is dearly paying for piss-poor drafts before 2008's.

 

He did mortgage the minors for the 2005 trophy...fine.

Now fix this, KW. It's been 4 years. And counting...

 

It's too early to judge the Viciedo signing, at least until the middle of the 2010 season. He has picked it up a lot in May, and has been a run-producing machine despite struggling quite a bit. That's the main thing that they're looking at with him, run production (along with strikeouts/pitch selection and where he fits in defensively).

 

Ramirez, if he NEVER does a thing for the White Sox in the rest of his career, was a relative bargain, because he was vastly underpaid last season. His four year contract is pretty close to what we paid Juan Uribe for the 2008 season alone. If they sent him to AAA and he never played again for the White Sox, it would still have been a decent signing because of season he had for us.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Don't know if I had a typo, but the closer.

 

 

The reason I asked is because Thornton himself volunteered to go back to starting when we acquired him for Borchard. I know there was one other time when the question was raised.

 

If Thornton failed as a closer, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to give it one last shot to make him a starter. Of course, he's already 31 or 32 and the likelihood of picking up 2nd and 3rd pitches that are consistent and effective at this point are not great. Thornton's fastball is too flat and his slider isn't reliable...but I think the odds of getting something out of Thornton as a starter are still higher than McCulloch or Broadway ever being consistent winners in the rotation.

 

We have Poreda, Richard, Thornton and Santos Rodriguez that are all lefties who can throw 92-98 with marginal offspeed stuff. If just one of those guys could break through and be successful (#3 starter or above), that would be a great help to the rotation.

 

Richard and Colon have both had successful starts this year throwing 85% fastballs. It's just very difficult to do on a consistent basis against good hitting teams, but Clayton has been effective against TB, NY and TOR in his short career, so the ability is there. It's just repeating and building upon that success that is the biggest question mark.

 

 

 

 

[nickofypres]

well whatever happens, DONT trade Linebrink or Dotel, if we really are serious about 2010, we are going to need a good core in a bullpen to go with Jenks, I know Dotel is a FA after this season, but I say sign him to another 2 seasons

[caulfield12]

well whatever happens, DONT trade Linebrink or Dotel, if we really are serious about 2010, we are going to need a good core in a bullpen to go with Jenks, I know Dotel is a FA after this season, but I say sign him to another 2 seasons

 

 

Unless you want to trade Matt Thornton, then basically you're advocating keeping the same four key bullpen members.

 

This would make sense if we were a contending team, close to a contending team, or even just one move away (position player/pitcher).

 

But it would be a waste of $20 million (roughly the salaries of all four together) to keep them together on a rebuilding team...it just doesn't make sense. Basically, about 20-35% of the 2010 budget/payroll would be allocated to four members of the bullpen. That won't work, any more than having five starting pitchers making $50+ million was sustainable (in 2006), either.

 

You have to get some of the production from the minors if you want to have a contending team on a $60-80 million team budget.

 

 

 

 

[nickofypres]

Unless you want to trade Matt Thornton, then basically you're advocating keeping the same four key bullpen members.

 

This would make sense if we were a contending team, close to a contending team, or even just one move away (position player/pitcher).

 

But it would be a waste of $20 million (roughly the salaries of all four together) to keep them together on a rebuilding team...it just doesn't make sense. Basically, about 20-35% of the 2010 budget/payroll would be allocated to four members of the bullpen. That won't work, any more than having five starting pitchers making $50+ million was sustainable (in 2006), either.

 

You have to get some of the production from the minors if you want to have a contending team on a $60-80 million team budget.

 

I don't see that being to big of an issue, rebuilding team or not. You can still use Poreda or Nunez from the minors in the pen, the bullpen is the most important part of a team IMO

[ThunderBolt]

I really doubt Konerko would allow a trade to the Mets. Maybe if this was his walk year, but I just don't see that being a match.

The Mets are realistically the third strongest team in the NL when healthy. Why wouldn't he wanna go their?

Edited May 19, 2009 by Thunderbolt

[G&T]

well whatever happens, DONT trade Linebrink or Dotel, if we really are serious about 2010, we are going to need a good core in a bullpen to go with Jenks, I know Dotel is a FA after this season, but I say sign him to another 2 seasons

 

Linebrink should go for no other reason than he's has a bad shoulder and won't be able to pitch much longer. If the Sox are to get anything for him, he has to go this season. I don't trust that he can pitch in 2010.

[WCSox]

well whatever happens, DONT trade Linebrink or Dotel, if we really are serious about 2010, we are going to need a good core in a bullpen to go with Jenks, I know Dotel is a FA after this season, but I say sign him to another 2 seasons

 

Linebrink is on record saying that he doesn't know if his shoulder will ever be 100% again and is owed $10.5 million over the next two years. Dotel will be 36 next season. The production of those two has nowhere to go but down, and Kenny would be crazy to go out of his way to keep either of them around next year. (Unfortunately, Linebrink's contract and NTC will make him difficult to deal this year.)

 

Since Kenny wasn't serious about this season, I doubt that he's going to make a 2008-like push next season. It's more likely that he deals Dye and Dotel at the break and lets guys like Beckham and Poreda develop in the bigs in 2010. And as much as I hate to watch bad baseball, it's the right thing to do. This current lineup isn't going to win in October and the Sox are going to have to suffer through another 1999-esque "The Kids Can Play" season or two while the current crop in AA sinks or swims in the majors.

 

[whitesoxmanager]

If you get anyone to take Konerko's contract off our hands, you get rid of him. He's playing well this year, but in this market, he's severely overpaid. I like your idea of promoting Poreda, and a good spot could be as a lefty set-up man in case Jenks is traded (and Thornton moves to the closing spot). I wonder if a team like the Dodgers could be interested in Dotel or Linebrink, as their set-up men stink.

 

probably not interested. the pen the dodgers currently have is maybe the best in baseball. the only need i see them having is a left hander.

[Special K]

Linebrink is on record saying that he doesn't know if his shoulder will ever be 100% again and is owed $10.5 million over the next two years. Dotel will be 36 next season. The production of those two has nowhere to go but down, and Kenny would be crazy to go out of his way to keep either of them around next year. (Unfortunately, Linebrink's contract and NTC will make him difficult to deal this year.)

 

Since Kenny wasn't serious about this season, I doubt that he's going to make a 2008-like push next season. It's more likely that he deals Dye and Dotel at the break and lets guys like Beckham and Poreda develop in the bigs in 2010. And as much as I hate to watch bad baseball, it's the right thing to do. This current lineup isn't going to win in October and the Sox are going to have to suffer through another 1999-esque "The Kids Can Play" season or two while the current crop in AA sinks or swims in the majors.

 

 

Is the Big Hurt still available? I think he is exactly what this team needs, some solid veteran leadership.

 

In all seriousness though, this team is lacking the key ingredient to any successful season a White Sox team has had over the past few years, and that is pitching. I know Danks has been underachieving, and im still hoping Floyd can turn it around and figure some things out, and Richard looked solid yesterday too (by the way that just proves how bad Ozzie is for running Contreras out there for almost 25% of the season to get shelled while Richard continually pitched well in long relief) , but clearly we don't have what it takes to make a run at this division. I don't see any reason why we can't bring these young guys (Beckham/Poreda) up and let them see if they can contribute now. If you look back at the past decade, most of the superstars playing right now came up at about the age these guys are at right now(with the exception of Jerry Owens). Are you guys going to tell me Beckham doesn't contribute more to our squad than Lillibridge? I say get the expermient started now, stick Ramirez in center to see if he can play, Becks at short, and lets get Poreda some starts.

 

 

[shipps]

Welcome to Soxtalk

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Is the Big Hurt still available? I think he is exactly what this team needs, some solid veteran leadership.

 

In all seriousness though, this team is lacking the key ingredient to any successful season a White Sox team has had over the past few years, and that is pitching. I know Danks has been underachieving, and im still hoping Floyd can turn it around and figure some things out, and Richard looked solid yesterday too (by the way that just proves how bad Ozzie is for running Contreras out there for almost 25% of the season to get shelled while Richard continually pitched well in long relief) , but clearly we don't have what it takes to make a run at this division. I don't see any reason why we can't bring these young guys (Beckham/Poreda) up and let them see if they can contribute now. If you look back at the past decade, most of the superstars playing right now came up at about the age these guys are at right now(with the exception of Jerry Owens). Are you guys going to tell me Beckham doesn't contribute more to our squad than Lillibridge? I say get the expermient started now, stick Ramirez in center to see if he can play, Becks at short, and lets get Poreda some starts.

I want some stability before I start calling up my top prospects. The last thing I want to do is bring a Gordon Beckham or Brandon Allen up in the middle of a bad season full of anger, negativity, and sulking, and topped with the burden of reporters swirling around asking everyone about possible trades and firings. If we're going to bring up the young guys to see what they have, let's clean house first and look to start a brand new season in July. Otherwise, keep them away from this mess.

 

About the pitching though, you're right, our staff sucks. But that's not changing anytime soon. And for the record, I hope we trade Poreda.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

The other problem with trading for Morales is we're back to overloading with 1B/DH types.

 

We still have to find places for Viciedo, Brandon Allen and Tyler Flowers (if he can't catch, they will want his bat in the line-up somewhere). If we want to go in the direction of speed/athleticism, maybe Shelby factors in as well at DH since his defense isn't up to par with Jordan Danks.

 

It all depends on what they would do with the roughly $15-20 million they would save by dealing Konerko.

 

If they invested it in the draft, signing international FA's or the starting rotation, it would be fine. Certainly carving away all the pieces from the 2005 team won't be popular moves. We don't even know how happy Buehrle would be hanging around long-term for 2-3 years of rebuilding, or if he is serious about retiring roughly 2-3 seasons from now.

No reason to trade for Morales anyway.

 

If the Sox took the money they would save in salary dumps and invested it in the farm then that would be great. The problem is, how much will they actually save when they factor in the decrease in walk-up sales, concessions, etc. that comes with dealing off veteran core players? Maybe the Sox can make up the difference Major League-style by filling the walls with chiropractor ads and so forth?

[caulfield12]

No reason to trade for Morales anyway.

 

If the Sox took the money they would save in salary dumps and invested it in the farm then that would be great. The problem is, how much will they actually save when they factor in the decrease in walk-up sales, concessions, etc. that comes with dealing off veteran core players? Maybe the Sox can make up the difference Major League-style by filling the walls with chiropractor ads and so forth?

 

 

This season was almost set up to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. White Sox struggle in a very winnable/average division...end up with 68-76 wins.

 

KW and JR preach the need for being "fiscally responsible" while heading into next season. Attendance numbers of 1.6-2.0 million are also cited as evidence. "We've had one of the top ten payrolls in baseball for four years now and the attendance is only, let's say, 22nd or 23rd in the majors..."

 

This situation is very frustrating. I've been reading whitesoxinteractive a lot the last 2-3 days and they've even started a VERY long "Fire Ozzie Guillen" thread, which makes absolutely no sense at all. Some people are saying we should have hired Gaston instead of Guillen, thinking that might have led to multiple World Series championships instead of quite probably zero. One thing almost nobody can match is Ozzie's passion for the White Sox. And yelling, screaming, knocking over post-game spreads, it's not going to change things for a beaten up team lacking in talent.

 

As much as the idea that the payroll is going to dwindle to $60-70 million seems crazy (since it was $115), it's really the only logical thing to do. We can't easily rebuild on the fly because starting pitching is almost impossible to find from outside the organization. If there's any lesson from the last decade, it should be that the Sox win when they pitch well and have a decent offense (not 2000 or 2006 level, just between 8th and 14th in MLB).

Edited May 19, 2009 by caulfield12

[Chisoxfn]

I really want a legit leadoff as well, but really?

Who are you suggesting?

[Chisoxfn]

It pisses me off that we couldn't get this guy, instead we had to draft Lance Broadway...

Matt Garza is the guy that would look really good right now, but your right, Ellsbury would have filled a major need as well. And for those that don't say the Twins make mistake, look at how awful that Delmon Young/Garza swap is looking right now.

[Dick Allen]

This season was almost set up to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. White Sox struggle in a very winnable/average division...end up with 68-76 wins.

 

KW and JR preach the need for being "fiscally responsible" while heading into next season. Attendance numbers of 1.6-2.0 million are also cited as evidence. "We've had one of the top ten payrolls in baseball for four years now and the attendance is only, let's say, 22nd or 23rd in the majors..."

 

This situation is very frustrating. I've been reading whitesoxinteractive a lot the last 2-3 days and they've even started a VERY long "Fire Ozzie Guillen" thread, which makes absolutely no sense at all. Some people are saying we should have hired Gaston instead of Guillen, thinking that might have led to multiple World Series championships instead of quite probably zero. One thing almost nobody can match is Ozzie's passion for the White Sox. And yelling, screaming, knocking over post-game spreads, it's not going to change things for a beaten up team lacking in talent.

 

As much as the idea that the payroll is going to dwindle to $60-70 million seems crazy (since it was $115), it's really the only logical thing to do. We can't easily rebuild on the fly because starting pitching is almost impossible to find from outside the organization. If there's any lesson from the last decade, it should be that the Sox win when they pitch well and have a decent offense (not 2000 or 2006 level, just between 8th and 14th in MLB).

The payroll was going down there anyway. Do you really think after they get rid of Thome, Contreras, Dye, Dotel and have to pay Viciedo $4.3 million less next year, that they are going to sign someone for big money? No way. They will indeed use the economy as an excuse for this year, but all the other teams in town have no problems filling their places when they give the people buying tickets something good to watch. Its like a guy opening a restaurant saying he's going to use old food because he's afraid no one will come to the restaurant. When no one comes, he lets everyone know how he was right. Its total BS. Its the defeatist attitude KW claimed he didn't have.

[Chisoxfn]

The reason I asked is because Thornton himself volunteered to go back to starting when we acquired him for Borchard. I know there was one other time when the question was raised.

 

If Thornton failed as a closer, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to give it one last shot to make him a starter. Of course, he's already 31 or 32 and the likelihood of picking up 2nd and 3rd pitches that are consistent and effective at this point are not great. Thornton's fastball is too flat and his slider isn't reliable...but I think the odds of getting something out of Thornton as a starter are still higher than McCulloch or Broadway ever being consistent winners in the rotation.

 

We have Poreda, Richard, Thornton and Santos Rodriguez that are all lefties who can throw 92-98 with marginal offspeed stuff. If just one of those guys could break through and be successful (#3 starter or above), that would be a great help to the rotation.

 

Richard and Colon have both had successful starts this year throwing 85% fastballs. It's just very difficult to do on a consistent basis against good hitting teams, but Clayton has been effective against TB, NY and TOR in his short career, so the ability is there. It's just repeating and building upon that success that is the biggest question mark.

But Thornton is much more valuable in the bullpen, you turn him into a closer and if you need to you can spin him for prospects in the future as well because you've just maximized his value. I'm not saying Broadway or McCulloch are long term fixes in the rotation, but someone is going to have to get a shot and this team is bad as is, so its not a big deal if you give one of those guys or someone just a shot in the rotation. Maybe Omogrosso is the guy and if he fails there you slide him to the pen, I don't know. I'm also not stating that we'd be able to get a front line starting pitching prospect, unless of course Jenks is dealt in which case I would expect us getting a high impact arm.

 

Thorton and Poreda are very similar, but Poreda does have very good sink to his fastball which is the only way he'd potentially be able to get away as a good major league starter (since he doesn't have a great repetoire of secondary pitches). Santos Rodriguez is a good arm but still 2-3 years away if he even pans out and Richard is worth a look cause he seems like a potentially valuable piece (4th or 5th starter or a solid reliever in the pen).

[caulfield12]

Matt Garza is the guy that would look really good right now, but your right, Ellsbury would have filled a major need as well. And for those that don't say the Twins make mistake, look at how awful that Delmon Young/Garza swap is looking right now.

 

 

The end of the season last year for the Sox was amazing, but it was enabled by Bill Smith, too.

 

1) Not getting anything of value for Santana, the best pitcher in baseball east of Greinke.

 

2) Letting Garza go and the Bartlett trade continuing the trend of a once incredible infield defense to become below average...Harris is a bad defender, too...just like Young (obviously the Rays prized pitching and defense, and it worked)

 

3) Signing all of those washed-up/injured veterans like Lamb, Everett, Monroe and Livan Hernandez...and sticking with Hernandez 6-8 starts too long instead of bringing back Liriano

 

4) Never addressing the RH set-up issues that existed all year with Crain, Bass and Guerrier...and, when making a trade, adding Eddie Guardado instead of someone like LaTroy Hawkins who might have shored up that aspect of the team

 

Everything the Twins did last year was wrong, and the White Sox deserved to win...but I don't think Terry Ryan would have made all of those same mistakes if he were still around.

Edited May 19, 2009 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

But Thornton is much more valuable in the bullpen, you turn him into a closer and if you need to you can spin him for prospects in the future as well because you've just maximized his value. I'm not saying Broadway or McCulloch are long term fixes in the rotation, but someone is going to have to get a shot and this team is bad as is, so its not a big deal if you give one of those guys or someone just a shot in the rotation. Maybe Omogrosso is the guy and if he fails there you slide him to the pen, I don't know. I'm also not stating that we'd be able to get a front line starting pitching prospect, unless of course Jenks is dealt in which case I would expect us getting a high impact arm.

 

Thorton and Poreda are very similar, but Poreda does have very good sink to his fastball which is the only way he'd potentially be able to get away as a good major league starter (since he doesn't have a great repetoire of secondary pitches). Santos Rodriguez is a good arm but still 2-3 years away if he even pans out and Richard is worth a look cause he seems like a potentially valuable piece (4th or 5th starter or a solid reliever in the pen).

 

 

Looking at it strictly from the perspective of starting pitching, if it were year 2 or 3 of Jenks' career here, I might even consider starting him again (for one reason, to force him to get back into shape).

 

Unfortunately, he only has two more years to go and his salary is determined by his being one of the 10 best closers in baseball. So there's little choice but to wait on Danks and Floyd to get straightened out again. All of the starters in A ball (especially Kannapolis), they're at least 2 years away...and the worst thing would be to try to rush one of them up to the big leagues. Besides Nathan Jones, there's nobody down there who is going to blow anyone away, and Jones would get crushed too, if he had to pitch from behind and throw fastballs over the plate.

 

We have to work backwards and solidify that rotation again...it has to be the priority over the bullpen. A bullpen is a luxury for a non-contending team, one we can't afford if we're going back to the Kids Can Play approach.

 

That's why I wouldn't mind trading Jenks, simply because he's the one piece who can get you back some more quality arms. White Sox history over the last decade has shown you don't need to have expensive closers...in fact, Koch has been the worst.

 

We've used Howry, Foulke, Takatsu and Hermanson, and they all had periods of success....none of them were $5 million plus salaries. Tampa Bay had a no-name bullpen last year, except for Percival. Their two best pitchers were probably Howell and Balfour, two players whose organizations (Minnesota and KC) essentially gave up on them. Same way we ended up with Politte.

 

 

 

 

[shipps]

Your only reason for making Jenks a starter would be to get him back in shape? Why do you care if he is ripped or not? If he can throw the ball effectively it doesnt matter if he is "in shape".