Poreda/White Sox benefit from all of this

[Jerksticks]

If I were Poreda I would feel pretty good about myself; being the prize in a deal for a former Cy Young winning top pitcher. Seems like good motivation to keep up the good work.

 

The White Sox actually boosted Poreda's trade value a bit as well. If Poreda puts up sick stats this year, his value becomes premium.

 

The other day he was Aarom Poreda the guy who could be a good starter/relief guy. I look at him differently now that another team values him so highly.

 

Guys, we almost got Jake Peavy without dangling Beckham, Flowers, Danks, Allen, Viciedo, CJ, Gartrell. What the heck are those guys worth, good god man!

 

FutureSox absolutely rules.

[danman31]

That's one way to look at it, but we don't know that Allen wasn't involved. We just know Danks and Beckham weren't because they were drafted less than a year ago.

[SoxAce]

That's one way to look at it, but we don't know that Allen wasn't involved. We just know Danks and Beckham weren't because they were drafted less than a year ago.

 

Well, first it was already reported/stated that it was Poreda, Richard and the other two PTBNL were pitchers. And second I doubt the Pads would want a 1B spect especially since they have a couple of them already in Blanks and Dykstra along with AGon who is still in his prime. Beckham actually woulda made the most sense for them since they are ridiculously thin on middle IFs (or just infielders for that matter) but of course we all know Slayer is probably the most untouchable prospect in our system. (and rightfully so.. has a real good chance of becomming a superstar)

 

[JPN366]

I agree, I think the White Sox will benefit in the long run from not dealing Poreda, Richard & whomever else was involved. The first chance I get, I'll tell Aaron that it's good to still see him in a Barons uniform.

[hogan873]

Poreda seems to be a highly thought-of prospect, and that is good news. Since the trade didn't go down we can concentrate on what he can do for the Sox in the future.

 

And, hey, we still have Richard with his flashy teeth.

[dasox24]

FutureSox absolutely rules.

Yes it does.

[JPN366]

And, hey, we still have Richard with his flashy teeth.

 

He hypnotizes people with his teeth, just like Tony Robbins. Kudos to whomever gets that reference.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

That's one way to look at it, but we don't know that Allen wasn't involved. We just know Danks and Beckham weren't because they were drafted less than a year ago.

All the reports said it was 2 pitchers. The most detailed report said it was 2 low-level pitching prospects out of a group of at least 4 which the Pads would be able to scout as the season went on and decide upon later.

 

If Brandon Allen was in that deal I think it would have come out, and I for one would not trade Brandon Allen for Jake Peavy. He's in Beckham territory IMHO and by far our 2nd best prospect. Dude is making great contact with a great BB rate and brings huge power from the left side along with some speed on the basepaths. Yeah, we should keep this guy.

[bighurt4life]

I think that one of the prospects they could have had would have been Dan Hudson who I would have been upset to see go, I think hes got some real potential.

[caulfield12]

All the reports said it was 2 pitchers. The most detailed report said it was 2 low-level pitching prospects out of a group of at least 4 which the Pads would be able to scout as the season went on and decide upon later.

 

If Brandon Allen was in that deal I think it would have come out, and I for one would not trade Brandon Allen for Jake Peavy. He's in Beckham territory IMHO and by far our 2nd best prospect. Dude is making great contact with a great BB rate and brings huge power from the left side along with some speed on the basepaths. Yeah, we should keep this guy.

 

 

If Flowers can actually catch, wouldn't you have to rate him ahead of Allen?

 

Of all the positions in our line-up at the major league level, that's the one place (AJ) where there's currently a huge hole if he goes down for an extended period of time.

 

While Brandon is athletic and left-handed and a logical replacement for Thome, it's a lot easier to find a 1B/DH than a catcher (assuming he is one) with the offensive ability of Tyler.

 

The other reason I think Flowers is important is because Brandon has Dayan Viciedo and Tyler himself as "insurance" at DH/1B in case things don't work out for whatever reason with him in the future. If Tyler Flowers doesn't stick as a catcher, what plan do we have at that position for going forward? Pretty much none!

Edited May 23, 2009 by caulfield12

[danman31]

If Brandon Allen was in that deal I think it would have come out, and I for one would not trade Brandon Allen for Jake Peavy. He's in Beckham territory IMHO and by far our 2nd best prospect. Dude is making great contact with a great BB rate and brings huge power from the left side along with some speed on the basepaths. Yeah, we should keep this guy.

He's not anywhere near as rare of a prospect as Beckham and where is this supposed great BB rate?

[Balta1701]

The other reason I think Flowers is important is because Brandon has Dayan Viciedo and Tyler himself as "insurance" at DH/1B in case things don't work out for whatever reason with him in the future. If Tyler Flowers doesn't stick as a catcher, what plan do we have at that position for going forward? Pretty much none!

The idea is...if you stock up enough prospects, the odds are some of them are going to succeed. So let's hypothetically say Flowers is the one who just doesn't cut it for whatever reason...at the same time though, Beckham takes SS, Viciedo, Allen, and Poreda take spots, and we pick up a player or two from this year's draft. Then what happens? Either KW swaps one of our guys for a catcher we didn't see coming (Seriously we never see these things coming) or KW has 5-6 cheap guys playing the field that saves him enough money to go out and buy a catcher (When does Mauer hit FA? )

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If Flowers can actually catch, wouldn't you have to rate him ahead of Allen?

 

No, not at all. An average or worse defensive C who will K 150+ times per season is not exactly my cup of tea, no matter if he gets on base a lot and hits home runs. I'd much rather get an above average defensive C who can handle a pitching staff, especially a young one, and can hit above .250 while doing some fundamental things with the bat. They're cheaper and IMO more beneficial to the team.

 

Of all the positions in our line-up at the major league level, that's the one place (AJ) where there's currently a huge hole if he goes down for an extended period of time.

 

Why is AJ a huge hole? That's not a hole at all once AJ leaves. Just go out and trade for another Gerald Laird, like the Tigers did. The only reason C was a hole before we got AJ is because we kept on trying to develop minor leaguers like Josh Paul, Mark Johnson, Ben Davis, etc. while sticking Sandy Alomar out there. We didn't look to acquire someone who could do the job. Give me the veteran who knows how to deal with a young pitcher, not some minor leaguer who has only been catching for like 3 years at the time. You'll never, ever, ever hear me b**** about offense from SS or C as long as who we have there is playing and leading on the field.

 

While Brandon is athletic and left-handed and a logical replacement for Thome, it's a lot easier to find a 1B/DH than a catcher (assuming he is one) with the offensive ability of Tyler.

 

While Brandon is by all means a better hitter and more athletic than Tyler Flowers, Tyler Flowers is better because he's a weak defensive catcher. That makes no sense. Allen > Flowers. Both will make the bigs because of their bats and Allen has the better bat.

 

Also, Paul Konerko was a C. Usually guys that can hit like that are hard to find because they get moved to other spots that are meant to keep them healthy and extend their playing careers, while (usually) upgrading defensively. The Sox way of doing things in recent history seems to be that they want young hitters at the catching spot, and I don't agree with that at all. I'd rather have Donny Lucy or Cole Armstrong out there hitting a buck ten than have some home run hitter who the pitchers don't have confidence in. Hopefully Flowers becomes at least adequate, but to say he's better than Allen because he's been converted to a C is pretty shortsighted IMO.

 

Matt Wieters isn't the best prospect in baseball because he's a catcher. He's the best prospect in baseball because he's Matt Wieters, a rare combination of awesomeness in multiple areas. A little paragraph on him:

 

Scouting report: Wieters does everything well but run. He has tremendous plate discipline and bat speed and the ability to hit for average and power from both sides of the plate. He's remarkably agile behind the plate -- especially considering his size -- with good hands and an above-average arm. He has performed well handling pitchers and calling games with a quiet leadership that is a big plus.

 

He's an outstanding defensive player at a key defensive position with the mentality of a leader, and he also happens to be a switch hitter who can hit for average and power from both sides of the plate. Imagine Victor Martinez, but a lot better. He could play any position in baseball and as long as he had the above description he'd be topping prospect lists. Being a C is a very valuable thing, but only if you're good at it.

 

The other reason I think Flowers is important is because Brandon has Dayan Viciedo and Tyler himself as "insurance" at DH/1B in case things don't work out for whatever reason with him in the future. If Tyler Flowers doesn't stick as a catcher, what plan do we have at that position for going forward? Pretty much none!

 

What does it matter if Flowers can't stick at C? Trade him or move him to 1B/DH then and get a REAL catcher. It's not like the future of the Sox is dependent upon whether or not Tyler Flowers can play defense. He has a bat and that is his value at this point, not his defensive position, because he isn't at the point yet where you'd consider that a strength. He's a 1B/DH trying to learn a new position at this point. The "C" next to his name is not going to make a GM skeptical of him as a 1B long-term trade for him. The idea is he is a hitter, and if he can successfully to convert to a good defensive catcher than that is gravy.

 

And I don't know what will happen with Viciedo or Flowers, but as long as Allen keeps making the contact he's been making, and as long as he keeps showing the eye he's been showing, then he doesn't NEED any back up plan. This kid is a legit middle of the order hitter.

[caulfield12]

Mauer's going to make a ton of money, and the assumption is the Yankees make a run at him...any team signing him should let him remain at catcher. His bat is far too valuable. You have to put him at 3B (like Bench), 1B or DH (alternating).

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

He's not anywhere near as rare of a prospect as Beckham and where is this supposed great BB rate?

To me, he's up there with Beckham as far as being the type of player that you don't trade unless you get a young star who will be under control for a long time.

 

As for his BB rate, I looked at his numbers yesterday and he's on a pace to walk about 60 times while K'ing less than 100 times. For a minor leaguer with that much power, that is great. That shows that he has a chance to be a .350+ OBP guy in the Majors should he continue along the pace he's at. Allen has really picked it up over the last year, especially so far this year.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Mauer's going to make a ton of money, and the assumption is the Yankees make a run at him...any team signing him should let him remain at catcher. His bat is far too valuable. You have to put him at 3B (like Bench), 1B or DH (alternating).

Mauer is an awesome defensive catcher though, so that makes sense, although sooner or later in his career he's going to move. The main thing I was saying is that just because a guy is a C doesn't mean he's more valuable. If he's as good as Mauer is, then that's a totally different story.

[caulfield12]

No, not at all. An average or worse defensive C who will K 150+ times per season is not exactly my cup of tea, no matter if he gets on base a lot and hits home runs. I'd much rather get an above average defensive C who can handle a pitching staff, especially a young one, and can hit above .250 while doing some fundamental things with the bat. They're cheaper and IMO more beneficial to the team.

 

 

 

Why is AJ a huge hole? That's not a hole at all once AJ leaves. Just go out and trade for another Gerald Laird, like the Tigers did. The only reason C was a hole before we got AJ is because we kept on trying to develop minor leaguers like Josh Paul, Mark Johnson, Ben Davis, etc. while sticking Sandy Alomar out there. We didn't look to acquire someone who could do the job. Give me the veteran who knows how to deal with a young pitcher, not some minor leaguer who has only been catching for like 3 years at the time. You'll never, ever, ever hear me b**** about offense from SS or C as long as who we have there is playing and leading on the field.

 

 

 

While Brandon is by all means a better hitter and more athletic than Tyler Flowers, Tyler Flowers is better because he's a weak defensive catcher. That makes no sense. Allen > Flowers. Both will make the bigs because of their bats and Allen has the better bat.

 

Also, Paul Konerko was a C. Usually guys that can hit like that are hard to find because they get moved to other spots that are meant to keep them healthy and extend their playing careers, while (usually) upgrading defensively. The Sox way of doing things in recent history seems to be that they want young hitters at the catching spot, and I don't agree with that at all. I'd rather have Donny Lucy or Cole Armstrong out there hitting a buck ten than have some home run hitter who the pitchers don't have confidence in. Hopefully Flowers becomes at least adequate, but to say he's better than Allen because he's been converted to a C is pretty shortsighted IMO.

 

Matt Wieters isn't the best prospect in baseball because he's a catcher. He's the best prospect in baseball because he's Matt Wieters, a rare combination of awesomeness in multiple areas. A little paragraph on him:

 

Scouting report: Wieters does everything well but run. He has tremendous plate discipline and bat speed and the ability to hit for average and power from both sides of the plate. He's remarkably agile behind the plate -- especially considering his size -- with good hands and an above-average arm. He has performed well handling pitchers and calling games with a quiet leadership that is a big plus.

 

He's an outstanding defensive player at a key defensive position with the mentality of a leader, and he also happens to be a switch hitter who can hit for average and power from both sides of the plate. Imagine Victor Martinez, but a lot better. He could play any position in baseball and as long as he had the above description he'd be topping prospect lists. Being a C is a very valuable thing, but only if you're good at it.

 

 

 

What does it matter if Flowers can't stick at C? Trade him or move him to 1B/DH then and get a REAL catcher. It's not like the future of the Sox is dependent upon whether or not Tyler Flowers can play defense. He has a bat and that is his value at this point, not his defensive position, because he isn't at the point yet where you'd consider that a strength. He's a 1B/DH trying to learn a new position at this point. The "C" next to his name is not going to make a GM skeptical of him as a 1B long-term trade for him. The idea is he is a hitter, and if he can successfully to convert to a good defensive catcher than that is gravy.

 

And I don't know what will happen with Viciedo or Flowers, but as long as Allen keeps making the contact he's been making, and as long as he keeps showing the eye he's been showing, then he doesn't NEED any back up plan. This kid is a legit middle of the order hitter.

 

 

As long as Flowers is better than Mike Piazza or Victor Martinez, that kind of offensive output from catcher gives you a huge advantage over many teams that have defense-first catchers. That was one of our huge pluses last year, getting a lot of power up the middle from Alexei Ramirez. Nobody has a 2B like that in the AL Central.

 

Not to mention that this factor is heightened by the park factor of USCF.

 

You can get away with lower than average performance offensively if you have Gold Glove caliber type outfielders, for example, Franklyn Gutierrez and Endy Chavez. Even then, you're seeing Seattle struggle because they don't have enough offense, and Beltre was expected to be a 25 HR, 90 RBI type performer this year.

 

The problem with that theory is when you're not getting much from 3B (speaking of positions with 150+ strikeouts with no power projected), which is expected to be a position that contributes quite a bit (although this is decreasing on a yearly basis, it's hard to name more than 5-7 really good players at this position after the likes of A-Rod and Wright), it puts additional pressure on SS, 2B, CF, C, etc.

 

If you look around our division, Redmond, Shoppach and Buck/Olivo all have started for stretches of their career and could be "full-time" players. The White Sox have an obvious weakness in this area.

 

And going out to find a catcher via trade or the FA market...a catcher that will give you 25-35 homers, is going to be prohibitively expensive.

Edited May 23, 2009 by caulfield12

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

As long as Flowers is better than Mike Piazza or Victor Martinez, that kind of offensive output from catcher gives you a huge advantage over many teams that have defense-first catchers. That was one of our huge pluses last year, getting a lot of power up the middle from Alexei Ramirez. Nobody has a 2B like that in the AL Central.

 

Not to mention that this factor is heightened by the park factor of USCF.

 

You can get away with lower than average performance offensively if you have Gold Glove caliber type outfielders, for example, Franklyn Gutierrez and Endy Chavez. Even then, you're seeing Seattle struggle because they don't have enough offense, and Beltre was expected to be a 25 HR, 90 RBI type performer this year.

 

The problem with that theory is when you're not getting much from 3B, which is expected to be a position that contributes quite a bit (although this is decreasing on a yearly basis, it's hard to name more than 5-7 really good players at this position after the likes of A-Rod and Wright), it puts additional pressure on SS, 2B, CF, C, etc.

 

If you look around our division, Redmond, Shoppach and Buck/Olivo all have started for stretches of their career and could be "full-time" players. The White Sox have an obvious weakness in this area.

 

And going out to find a catcher via trade or the FA market...a catcher that will give you 25-35 homers, is going to be prohibitively expensive.

 

First off, you're underrating the hell out of the C position by comparing that position to RF, 2B, and so on. The catcher is the only offensive position on an AL field that determines what pitch is going to be thrown and where. The catcher's #1 responsibility is the pitcher, not offense.

 

Remember back in 2005 when we first got AJ after having all those minor league scrubs back there for years? Remember how many f***ing times Jon Garland especially, but others, would shake off AJ and then give up a HR to Kevin Mench or something? Remember what it felt like to get a veteran back there who actually knew what the f*** he was doing? It was wonderful! And you can credit Ozzie and Coop a whole lot for that '05 pitching staff, but I guarantee Jose Contreras and Jon Garland don't "figure it out" and Brandon McCarthy doesn't throw the ball with confidence in a playoff race with f***ing Josh Paul behind the plate.

 

I couldn't give two s***s how many HR my catcher hits as long as he's got the starting staff on the right track, and as long as his pitchers feel more confident with him behind the plate. AJ has his shortcomings as far as baserunners go, but aside from that, he's been pretty damn good and the hole he leaves when his contract is up will not be an offensive one.

 

Kelly Shoppach is awesome. He was the throw-in in the Marte-Crisp deal because he was seen as more of a defensive guy. Shows you how much respect those guys get... I'd love to have him, but that is not happening.

 

[caulfield12]

First off, you're underrating the hell out of the C position by comparing that position to RF, 2B, and so on. The catcher is the only offensive position on an AL field that determines what pitch is going to be thrown and where. The catcher's #1 responsibility is the pitcher, not offense.

 

Remember back in 2005 when we first got AJ after having all those minor league scrubs back there for years? Remember how many f***ing times Jon Garland especially, but others, would shake off AJ and then give up a HR to Kevin Mench or something? Remember what it felt like to get a veteran back there who actually knew what the f*** he was doing? It was wonderful! And you can credit Ozzie and Coop a whole lot for that '05 pitching staff, but I guarantee Jose Contreras and Jon Garland don't "figure it out" and Brandon McCarthy doesn't throw the ball with confidence in a playoff race with f***ing Josh Paul behind the plate.

 

I couldn't give two s***s how many HR my catcher hits as long as he's got the starting staff on the right track, and as long as his pitchers feel more confident with him behind the plate. AJ has his shortcomings as far as baserunners go, but aside from that, he's been pretty damn good and the hole he leaves when his contract is up will not be an offensive one.

 

Kelly Shoppach is awesome. He was the throw-in in the Marte-Crisp deal because he was seen as more of a defensive guy. Shows you how much respect those guys get... I'd love to have him, but that is not happening.

 

 

The 2006 Tigers and 2007 Indians' staffs did very well for themselves without catchers who were known for their game-calling.

 

Yes, AJ is overlooked and ridiculed for some of the things he's not very good at (like throwing out runners, although this is 60-70% on Cooper and the pitchers), but there's also a lot of help to be had from the bench in terms of pitch calling. Whether Flowers will have the knack for that, it's hard to say. It's also hard to quantify the offensive damage he will do and how that also will give confidence to a pitcher, instead of having an offense like ours that causes our starters to go out feeling they have to pitch shutouts every time.

 

Going along with your Kelly Shoppach line, wouldn't you rather have him than Ryan Garko? Garko's clearly a better hitter, but isn't Shoppach much more valuable on the trade market? I know you'll tell me Brandon is more athletic and left-handed and that's why he's MUCH more of a player than Garko, but that guy isn't chopped liver as a hitter, certainly not against the White Sox. If we're projecting Brandon Allen to hit 30-35 homers or 15-18 homers at the major league level, it makes a huge difference. Obviously he hit like 29 home runs last year, you just have to wonder if he'll do it on a consistent basis. And no, I don't think we can pencil in Flowers for 25-35 homers just because Hawk says he has as much power as any hitters in the majors today. Obviously there's a lot more to it than batting practice, Joe Borchard proved that much.

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2009 by caulfield12

[danman31]

To me, he's up there with Beckham as far as being the type of player that you don't trade unless you get a young star who will be under control for a long time.

 

As for his BB rate, I looked at his numbers yesterday and he's on a pace to walk about 60 times while K'ing less than 100 times. For a minor leaguer with that much power, that is great. That shows that he has a chance to be a .350+ OBP guy in the Majors should he continue along the pace he's at. Allen has really picked it up over the last year, especially so far this year.

I think Allen has the potential to be solid, but he plays a position where there are a lot of guys that can do what he can. He has 17 BB in 163 AB, that's pretty average. That's in line with his career numbers too.

 

Sidenote, Allen is hitting way better in Regions Park than on the road. .329 vs. .264 batting averages and the power is about the same. Seems odd.