Jeff Passan doesn't sugar-coat the Peavy trade

[WCSox]

As far as this idea of ravaging and pillaging the farm system, there's no example of a player who came up through our system who has become a star somewhere else. If anything, Peavy should be encouraged that the GM is willing (unlike the Angels, for example) to deal prospects for results in the short-term. Frank Francisco is the only prospect (and he was only with us for a year after the Howry trade to the Red Sox) we've had in our system that has been a big success somewhere else, and he's gone through his own set of problems (injuries, chair throwing).

 

I'll give him Chris Young, although he isn't exactly a "star." And with Garcia's quick demise shortly after that deal and Contreras' string of injuries after mid-2006, we were pretty fortunate in hindsight to have Javy shore up the middle/back of the rotation. If Passan had done his homework, he would've noticed that the majority of the prospects that Kenny has traded away for veterans over the past five years have either gone on to become mediocre MLB starters or haven't panned out at all. There's a reason that Kenny didn't bother to hang onto these players: They weren't that great. And many of these prospects have been traded for other (often superior) prospects and young players (Danks, Floyd, Quentin) who have done well at the ML level under the Sox coaching staff. But I suppose that it's a lot easier to neglect one's due diligence and attack an aggressive and outspoken general manager for not running a team according to a desk jockey's preconceived notions of how a GM should operate his franchise (despite Kenny's overwhelmingly positive results). Because, you know, controversy sells and increasing hits to Yahoo Sports increases advertising revenue, which is the sole function of Mr. Passan's position.

 

Edited May 26, 2009 by WCSox

[ThunderBolt]

I'll give him Chris Young, although he isn't exactly a "star."

Or a very good baseball player anymore.

[WCSox]

Or a very good baseball player anymore.

 

I'm not sure what his problem is this year, but I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

 

[ThunderBolt]

I'm not sure what his problem is this year, but I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

He's pretty much has AJ's approach at the plate except with a massive hole in his swing.

[sox1844]

No kidding. I love these lines...

 

 

 

Yeah, Ozzie has a really difficult time getting along with veterans who didn't come up through the Sox organization, as evidenced by Jim Thome, Freddy Garcia, Jermaine Dye, A.J. Pierzynski, and Ken Griffey, Jr. They all hate Ozzie.

 

 

 

And the Sox are really paying for dealing young "talent" like Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, Brandon McCarthy, and Gio Gonzalez for proven veteran talent. Good job with the research there, junior.

 

 

 

Right, the pennant race. Because the same organizations that tried to trade for Peavy and failed this past winter - and already spent their money elsewhere - are now going to pick up Peavy's $22 million option IN ADDITION to the $50-some million he's contractually owed - in the middle of a really bad recession, where the vast majority of GMs are hesitant to spend. Gotcha. And Peavy is apparently refusing to play in the AL, cutting the list of possible suitors in half. And the only team that he's actually shown interest in playing for is in bankruptcy court and can't pick up his contract. Yeah, I'm sure that Peavy will be joining that pennant race in no time.

 

It's much more likely that Peavy will sit in his brand new home in sunny San Diego for the remainder of the year and wait for a better situation to open up this winter.

 

This quote was also entertaining...

 

 

 

I'll give him that the Sox appear to be in bad shape this year, but how are the Padres and Sox on the same level as an organization? The Padres lost 99 games last year and are looking to shed payroll. Their market is also dominated by two much better franchises who have actually won championships. "Equally horrifying," my ass. The Padres are a third-tier organization.

 

I actually agree with this guy's assessment that the Sox are not the ideal situation for Peavy. But his reasoning is completely retarded.

 

[sox1844]

I have a serious question.... how do you know about how vets feel about Ozzie? Just because a guy shuts up and gets paid, does not mean he loves Ozzie. It doesn't even mean he likes Ozzie, or respects him even a tiny bit. Have you ever bit your tongue around your boss?? Thought he was a raging idiot, but said nothing because you didn't want to make trouble? Hmm.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I have a serious question.... how do you know about how vets feel about Ozzie? Just because a guy shuts up and gets paid, does not mean he loves Ozzie. It doesn't even mean he likes Ozzie, or respects him even a tiny bit. Have you ever bit your tongue around your boss?? Thought he was a raging idiot, but said nothing because you didn't want to make trouble? Hmm.

It would be hard to see Ozzie as a raging idiot when 90% or more of the time he's either laughing, cracking jokes, or throwing sunflower seeds at someone.

 

The national media types characterize Ozzie as a violent, angry, gay-bashing loose cannon. The reason? Unless Ozzie attracts attention by saying and doing controversial things, none of them pay attention.

 

As for how we would know that veterans are telling the truth when they say they like Ozzie, consider this:

 

At time, Garland, Contreras, Buehrle, Dye, and AJ re-signed with the Sox, avoiding free agency where they clearly would have bolted had they not wanted to play for Ozzie.

 

Jim Thome and Javy Vazquez waived NTC clauses to come here, despite Ozzie's reputation in national media.

 

Paulie left more money and a better climate on the table in order to return and play for Ozzie.

 

Willie Harris, OC, and Swisher were the only players I can think of that had a problem with Ozzie. There was the Maggs issue, but Ozzie started that by attacking Maggs for his comments about JR. If there was a real problem, chances are we'd have seen or heard about a Toronto-style blow-up at some point.

[Texsox]

That's fine then, I guess message boards need those who just come by to take pot shots at the rest while really providing no opinion of their own. I'm not entirely sure why you even bothered to read the comments in this thread considering the vast majority of them are likely to be opinions of the writer's opinion and the rest will be opinions of the opinions of the writer's opinion. After all, that would be boring. Perhaps you just can't pass up an opportunity to point out the many hypocrisies of this board's posters.

 

You say the board consensus is that this team is going to suck for a while, I don't think that's the case at all. So naturally I'm going to be curious as to why you hold this opinion. What I think most believe: this team has a good young core, an owner willing to spend, a s*** load of money coming off the books, a very good farm system and an aggressive general manager with a knack of dealing the right guys at the right time. Sound like a recipe for a quick turn around if things don't work out this year.

 

I still find it interesting that you were able to determine a board consensus after 3 posts (I believe that's how many posters stated their displeasure with the posted article), seems like a sample size issue to me. Of course it's awful hard to determine your real point when you're speaking in generalities. If you're going to start calling out hypocrites perhaps you should start with the people in this thread.

[WCSox]

It would be hard to see Ozzie as a raging idiot when 90% or more of the time he's either laughing, cracking jokes, or throwing sunflower seeds at someone.

 

The national media types characterize Ozzie as a violent, angry, gay-bashing loose cannon. The reason? Unless Ozzie attracts attention by saying and doing controversial things, none of them pay attention.

 

As for how we would know that veterans are telling the truth when they say they like Ozzie, consider this:

 

At time, Garland, Contreras, Buehrle, Dye, and AJ re-signed with the Sox, avoiding free agency where they clearly would have bolted had they not wanted to play for Ozzie.

 

Jim Thome and Javy Vazquez waived NTC clauses to come here, despite Ozzie's reputation in national media.

 

Paulie left more money and a better climate on the table in order to return and play for Ozzie.

 

Willie Harris, OC, and Swisher were the only players I can think of that had a problem with Ozzie. There was the Maggs issue, but Ozzie started that by attacking Maggs for his comments about JR. If there was a real problem, chances are we'd have seen or heard about a Toronto-style blow-up at some point.

 

It's also very telling that Ozzie has publicly gushed over guys like Mark, Paulie, Thome, and Griffey. The respect is mutual.

 

[lostfan]

:facepalm:

[Vance Law]

I'll give him Chris Young, although he isn't exactly a "star."

 

Give him nothing. Young has a career OBP of .297 playing in a band box in the NL. And that's about the same as Brian Anderson. And he's been more brutal this year. Young has twice as many MLB at bats as Anderson, and does not appear to be getting better. Even with his power, his OPS is below average for an NL CF in each of his 2 full seasons. Not exactly a star, and not exactly league average yet. But for at least 2 years people complained that we gave away for free Ken Griffy Jr. in his prime. Nevermind that we got a well-better-than league-average starter who averaged about 210 innings in his 3 years here, and we stole an MVP in Quentin from the team later.

 

[caulfield12]

Give him nothing. Young has a career OBP of .297 playing in a band box in the NL. And that's about the same as Brian Anderson. And he's been more brutal this year. Young has twice as many MLB at bats as Anderson, and does not appear to be getting better. Even with his power, his OPS is below average for an NL CF in each of his 2 full seasons. Not exactly a star, and not exactly league average yet. But for at least 2 years people complained that we gave away for free Ken Griffy Jr. in his prime. Nevermind that we got a well-better-than league-average starter who averaged about 210 innings in his 3 years here, and we stole an MVP in Quentin from the team later.

 

Not Griffey Jr., but more like Mike Cameron...although with the rate he's going, Chris will be lucky to have Mike's overall career...especially any Gold Gloves.

 

[WCSox]

Give him nothing. Young has a career OBP of .297 playing in a band box in the NL. And that's about the same as Brian Anderson. And he's been more brutal this year. Young has twice as many MLB at bats as Anderson, and does not appear to be getting better. Even with his power, his OPS is below average for an NL CF in each of his 2 full seasons. Not exactly a star, and not exactly league average yet.

 

Young had a combined 54 HR, 71 2B, and 44 SB between '07 and '08. Agreed that his OPS is indefensible, but his combination of slugging percentage, speed, and defensive capability are definitely above league average. Given that Crede's OBP hung right around .300 in his first few years in the league as well (and hasn't really improved much since), I wouldn't write off Young just yet. I don't foresee him ever hitting at the top of the order, but the talent is definitely there.

 

[lostfan]

Young had a combined 54 HR, 71 2B, and 44 SB between '07 and '08. Agreed that his OPS is indefensible, but his combination of slugging percentage, speed, and defensive capability are definitely above league average. Given that Crede's OBP hung right around .300 in his first few years in the league as well (and hasn't really improved much since), I wouldn't write off Young just yet. I don't foresee him ever hitting at the top of the order, but the talent is definitely there.

Hell, you really could say the same thing about Anderson today which would make that whole thing moot.

[WCSox]

Hell, you really could say the same thing about Anderson today which would make that whole thing moot.

 

Anderson doesn't have 54 HRs and 71 2Bs over the past two full seasons. Granted, Anderson hasn't had anything near Young's playing time, but his horrible approach at the plate would make 20 HRs difficult (8 in 2006 with 405 PAs).

 

Crede (.306) and Alexei (.309) are proof that OBP isn't everything, especially in the bottom half of the order.

 

And before you get the wrong idea, I've gone on the record several times here in support of the Vazquez/Young deal. Solid starting pitching trumps all, IMO.

 

[lostfan]

Anderson doesn't have 54 HRs and 71 2Bs over the past two full seasons. Granted, Anderson hasn't had anything near Young's playing time, but his horrible approach at the plate would make 20 HRs difficult (8 in 2006 with 405 PAs).

 

Crede (.306) and Alexei (.309) are proof that OBP isn't everything, especially in the bottom half of the order.

 

And before you get the wrong idea, I've gone on the record several times here in support of the Vazquez/Young deal. Solid starting pitching trumps all, IMO.

I meant as far as having tons of talent and not necessarily living up to it.

[WCSox]

I meant as far as having tons of talent and not necessarily living up to it.

 

I agree with that.

 

[kwolf68]

 

I was excited about this trade at first, but seeing the way Clayton Richard has pitched, knowing we'd have to give up him, our top pitching prospect and two others, I am thinking maybe we are OK with this.

 

One thing about Clayton Richard is he isn't sceered...he's a bulldog out there on the mound, just like Burls and Danks. I know he doesn't 'wow' people, but I think we need to give this kid a chance. Word out of San Diego is they liked Richard A LOT.

[Vance Law]

I was excited about this trade at first, but seeing the way Clayton Richard has pitched, knowing we'd have to give up him, our top pitching prospect and two others, I am thinking maybe we are OK with this.

 

One thing about Clayton Richard is he isn't sceered...he's a bulldog out there on the mound, just like Burls and Danks. I know he doesn't 'wow' people, but I think we need to give this kid a chance. Word out of San Diego is they liked Richard A LOT.

 

This isn't a dig on Richard or your post, I am genuinely curious. Say Richard sticks, and Poreda makes it to the rotation next year. Has any team ever gone with 4 lefties in a starting rotation before?

Edited May 27, 2009 by Vance Law

[Dick Allen]

This isn't a dig on Richard or your post, I am genuinely curious. Say Richard sticks, and Poreda makes it to the rotation next year. Has any team ever gone with 4 lefties in a starting rotation before?

In the late 70's the Sox had Baumgarten, Kravec, Burns, and Wortham. All lefties.

[sox1844]

It would be hard to see Ozzie as a raging idiot when 90% or more of the time he's either laughing, cracking jokes, or throwing sunflower seeds at someone.

 

The national media types characterize Ozzie as a violent, angry, gay-bashing loose cannon. The reason? Unless Ozzie attracts attention by saying and doing controversial things, none of them pay attention.

 

As for how we would know that veterans are telling the truth when they say they like Ozzie, consider this:

 

At time, Garland, Contreras, Buehrle, Dye, and AJ re-signed with the Sox, avoiding free agency where they clearly would have bolted had they not wanted to play for Ozzie.

 

Jim Thome and Javy Vazquez waived NTC clauses to come here, despite Ozzie's reputation in national media.

 

Paulie left more money and a better climate on the table in order to return and play for Ozzie.

 

Willie Harris, OC, and Swisher were the only players I can think of that had a problem with Ozzie. There was the Maggs issue, but Ozzie started that by attacking Maggs for his comments about JR. If there was a real problem, chances are we'd have seen or heard about a Toronto-style blow-up at some point.

 

I don't know... just by talking to other fans, listening to different media outlets, I just get the impression that Ozzie is an absolute clown, the total laughingstock of baseball. I mean, I'm just wondering what the feeling is inside the business rather than just fans. I was just wondering if you actually knew of any player who openly loves Ozzie, rather than just NOT bashing him. Know what I'm saying? You just never know the inside stories ... I just wonder if Ozzie wasn't at the helm if we would have had a better chance at Peavy.

 

[WCSox]

I don't know... just by talking to other fans, listening to different media outlets, I just get the impression that Ozzie is an absolute clown, the total laughingstock of baseball.

 

And their opinion is informed and worth listening to because...? If Ozzie's such a laughingstock, why does Kenny put up with him? Does Kenny seem like the type of GM who would put up with an incompetent manager?

 

I mean, I'm just wondering what the feeling is inside the business rather than just fans. I was just wondering if you actually knew of any player who openly loves Ozzie, rather than just NOT bashing him. Know what I'm saying? You just never know the inside stories ... I just wonder if Ozzie wasn't at the helm if we would have had a better chance at Peavy.

 

I don't know of many people who openly love their bosses, but I know quite a few people who get along with them relatively well.

 

Look at it this way: Thome and Vazquez both waived their NTCs to play in Chicago. Vazuez, Dye, Contreras, and Buehrle all signed extensions after playing under Ozzie. The latter signed for a massive hometown discount. Paulie re-signed with the Sox, despite a better offer from another team. Garland has said that Ozzie is the best manager he's ever played for. Given all of that, I don't think that I don't think that Ozzie was a factor in Peavy not accepting a trade to the Sox.

Edited May 27, 2009 by WCSox

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I don't know... just by talking to other fans, listening to different media outlets, I just get the impression that Ozzie is an absolute clown, the total laughingstock of baseball. I mean, I'm just wondering what the feeling is inside the business rather than just fans. I was just wondering if you actually knew of any player who openly loves Ozzie, rather than just NOT bashing him. Know what I'm saying? You just never know the inside stories ... I just wonder if Ozzie wasn't at the helm if we would have had a better chance at Peavy.

Peavy's momma could have been hired as Sox manager and he still wouldn't have accepted a deal here. The problem was the park and the league. All the other talk, be it about Ozzie, guaranteed options, full NTC's, opt-out clauses, Sox record at the time, etc. was just secondary. If the Sox played in a pitcher's park in the NL he'd be here already.

 

Also, about the feeling inside the business, whenever I listen to a national broadcast featuring ex-players - meaning not s***-eating pot stirrers like Fox's Buck - they rave about Ozzie. When a guy like Mark Grace goes on and on and on about how much he'd have loved to play for Ozzie, then I guess Ozzie must be doing something right.

[Dick Allen]

Jim Thome and Javy Vazquez waived NTC clauses to come here, despite Ozzie's reputation in national media.

Vazquez demanded a trade from Arizona, and even though I don't really buy Ozzie being all that loved by his players, I don't buy anyone not coming to the White Sox because they don't want to play for him. I could see where his act could get old, but its not like he's a total ass to his players.

[WCSox]

and even though I don't really buy Ozzie being all that loved by his players

 

I don't buy it either. I'm sure that some of them really like him, others think that he's a decent manager, some others are indifferent, and I'm sure there's a contingent that doesn't like him at all. In other words, he's like a lot of other bosses.